- Thread starter
- #481
If Jarrod felt it was an issue at all he would exchange it. I think you ran into his famous frankness.
And yeah it can be startling until you get to know him.
And yeah it can be startling until you get to know him.
Convex club.
- Thread starter kohalajohn
- Start date
- Thread starter
- #482
Chan Whiskers, ages ago I said I'd try mineral oil, instead of my usual Ballisol.
Finally did today.
I had a dovo la forme, which is the Bismarck blade. It has always been maintained on the convex black translucent. It was already in pretty good shape.
I put a fair bit of mineral oil, did about forty laps, the usual x strokes
The shave afterwards felt the same as when I used Ballistol.
The differences in the honing experience. Well, it was much thicker, obviously. I dilute my Ballistol with water, and you can't do that with mineral oil, so there was much more cushion. That should make it slower. Which I suppose is good if you touch up frequently, like say weekly. It's so thick that it's not removing much steel at all.
The other difference is the washing up. Have to use a bit of soap to remove the oil. Ballistol already had detergents in it, so it washes off with water.
The advantage of mineral oil is cost. If you buy it in the big jugs, it's super cheap compared to Ballistol.
I think I prefer the diluted Ballistol. And ark is already slow to hone. The thickness of the pure mineral oil slows it down even more.
The having to use soap, is not a huge deal. But I like the convenience of clean up with Ballistol. Just rinse off with water and it's perfectly clean.
And the cost, well, I don't go through a ton of Ballistol, so it's sort of like the soap thing. Like soap, any honing oil will go a long way, so cost variation isn't that important in this case.
And I'm always buying Ballistol, for many uses. I have no reason to be buying mineral oil.
Glad I tried the experiment though.
Finally did today.
I had a dovo la forme, which is the Bismarck blade. It has always been maintained on the convex black translucent. It was already in pretty good shape.
I put a fair bit of mineral oil, did about forty laps, the usual x strokes
The shave afterwards felt the same as when I used Ballistol.
The differences in the honing experience. Well, it was much thicker, obviously. I dilute my Ballistol with water, and you can't do that with mineral oil, so there was much more cushion. That should make it slower. Which I suppose is good if you touch up frequently, like say weekly. It's so thick that it's not removing much steel at all.
The other difference is the washing up. Have to use a bit of soap to remove the oil. Ballistol already had detergents in it, so it washes off with water.
The advantage of mineral oil is cost. If you buy it in the big jugs, it's super cheap compared to Ballistol.
I think I prefer the diluted Ballistol. And ark is already slow to hone. The thickness of the pure mineral oil slows it down even more.
The having to use soap, is not a huge deal. But I like the convenience of clean up with Ballistol. Just rinse off with water and it's perfectly clean.
And the cost, well, I don't go through a ton of Ballistol, so it's sort of like the soap thing. Like soap, any honing oil will go a long way, so cost variation isn't that important in this case.
And I'm always buying Ballistol, for many uses. I have no reason to be buying mineral oil.
Glad I tried the experiment though.
Chan Eil Whiskers
Fumbling about.
I think maybe I prefer the Ballisto/water mix, too.
I've used several kinds of mineral oil. Some were quite thick feeling on the stone. The last one I used felt not much different to me than B/w mix. Perhaps it's a thinner mineral oil. Perhaps I used a whole lot less (I did, but did that make it feel a lot thinner?).
B/w mix is very hard to beat in my view of it so far.
Today I shaved with the Herder I finished on the DCA (or maybe the Norton convex). What a nice edge it has! That razor took a ton of work to get it right, but it is way right.
Great write up on the mineral oil honing you did. In theory I agree with you, but the jury is still gathering data.
Happy shaves,
Jim
I've used 50/50 mix of mineral oil and mineral spirits before with good results. These days I mostly use a propylene glycol/ water mix on my oil stones. I just sprits the stone with water and add a bit of PG. Water soluble and food safe.
- Thread starter
- #485
You know, propylene glycol's not a bad idea. It is water soluble, so one can dilute it.
For arcs, I think dilution is necessary. They are slow stones, especially the really dense ones, and I don't want to slow them down even more with thick oil.
For arcs, I think dilution is necessary. They are slow stones, especially the really dense ones, and I don't want to slow them down even more with thick oil.
- Thread starter
- #486
Jim, you mentioned Norton convex. Maybe I missed something earlier in the thread, but does Norton make convex stones?
Chan Eil Whiskers
Fumbling about.
Norton doesn't. Mine was convexed and sold by Jarrod. I believe it's a one off.
I also have the same Norton in a flat stone. These two Nortons are white translucents.
Happy shaves,
Jim
- Thread starter
- #488
Well, how about that? How do you like it? How would you say it's the same or different from the black ark?
Oh, on completely unrelated matter, here's a photo of a humble bout of coti I'm using this morning to sharpen up a pair of cleavers. Will be using the cleavers tonight to carve up a fifty pound suckling pig for our party.
photo below
Oh, on completely unrelated matter, here's a photo of a humble bout of coti I'm using this morning to sharpen up a pair of cleavers. Will be using the cleavers tonight to carve up a fifty pound suckling pig for our party.
photo below
Chan Eil Whiskers
Fumbling about.
Maybe the Norton feels better. It certainly feels somewhat different in a way I like. Plus, it's a pretty nice looking stone.
Is a razor finished on the Norton sharper? On, the DCA? I don't think so.
All that said, the black side of my DCA was been used a lot more so I could be comparing apples to apple juice. The white convex Norton may improve as it's burnished or whatever.
My convexed Norton is considerably thinner than my flat Norton (same numbers and such on the side of both stones so I assume they started off the same; maybe convexing the stone made it thinner?).
Yes, I like the Norton convex.
Enjoy your party!
Happy shaves,
Jim
Is a razor finished on the Norton sharper? On, the DCA? I don't think so.
All that said, the black side of my DCA was been used a lot more so I could be comparing apples to apple juice. The white convex Norton may improve as it's burnished or whatever.
My convexed Norton is considerably thinner than my flat Norton (same numbers and such on the side of both stones so I assume they started off the same; maybe convexing the stone made it thinner?).
Yes, I like the Norton convex.
Enjoy your party!
Happy shaves,
Jim
- Thread starter
- #490
Jim, I think I have finally maxed out what a black ark can do.
It's pretty damn good. Only diamond balsa is sharper.
Now, having said that, it occurs to me that diamond balsa is crazy sharp because you do it after every single shave. I wonder how a convex black ark would do if we used it daily, same as balsa?
I'm just not that interested in that huge amount of daily honing though, so will probably never find out.
John
It's pretty damn good. Only diamond balsa is sharper.
Now, having said that, it occurs to me that diamond balsa is crazy sharp because you do it after every single shave. I wonder how a convex black ark would do if we used it daily, same as balsa?
I'm just not that interested in that huge amount of daily honing though, so will probably never find out.
John
Chan Eil Whiskers
Fumbling about.
John, thanks for the update.
Sometimes I consider picking just one shave ready razor and using it every day + also honing it a little bit between every shave until I'm sure the edge is both entirely to my liking and 100% max'd out.
My best edges off the DCA and the Norton convex are sharp indeed.
Happy shaves,
Jim
- Thread starter
- #492
Well, Jim, what you describe is The Method, developed by Slash. Daily stropping on diamond pasted balsa.
It really depends on whether you still have curiosity about honing. I like seeing edges change, and I like the feeling of "oh hey, I accomplished that, that's much better now"
But I can imagine that after enough years, you have done all that, and you just want an excellent shave. You've evolved from being a honer to being a shaver.
I think that a fella who likes The Method would also like a Feather SS. Always perfect.
It really depends on whether you still have curiosity about honing. I like seeing edges change, and I like the feeling of "oh hey, I accomplished that, that's much better now"
But I can imagine that after enough years, you have done all that, and you just want an excellent shave. You've evolved from being a honer to being a shaver.
I think that a fella who likes The Method would also like a Feather SS. Always perfect.
Chan Eil Whiskers
Fumbling about.
I don't mean honing daily forever. Just to find that point where the edge is 100% max'd out.
Would you speak to exactly how you know you max'd out what the stone can do? Also what you did during that perhaps ongoing and lengthy honing process.
Happy shaves,
Jim
- Thread starter
- #494
It just took time. arks are slow honers. but slow honers are sharp honers.
I just honed it with x strokes on diluted ballistol.
I just noticed that eventually, it just wasn't getting any sharper. I was just wasting my time. So I stopped.
My system is to deal with my hobby on saturday morning. I do my honing then. And anything else that needs doing like picking a new soap, rubbing my oily hands over the leather strop, checking stones for flatness, the usual enjoyable jobs.
And taking the razor that I had used the previous week, and honing it, stropping it, giving it a drop of protective ballistol and packing it away in the cigar boxes.
And picking out one razor to use in the following week.
So an ark razor gets leather for a week, then about fifty x laps on the ark on saturday before being put away.
I don't change honing methods among razors. When a razor gets assigned to a method, I keep it on that method.
so the saturday morning routine is used for everything. back when I used to use film, or my nani12.
nowadays i'm only using convex arks and diamond balsa. soon I'll be trying jnats.
honing every week is maybe a bit much, but it means I can do a light frequent honing and that's better for sharpness, I think.
the old way was to use leather for three months and then when it got dull and tuggy, to go to a synthetic progression, working 3k, 5k, 8k, up to 12k.
the new way, for me anyway, is to not let it get tuggy. to no longer use coarse hones. to go light and frequent, on a medium that would be too slow to bring back a razor that had been allowed to go dull and tuggy.
John
I just honed it with x strokes on diluted ballistol.
I just noticed that eventually, it just wasn't getting any sharper. I was just wasting my time. So I stopped.
My system is to deal with my hobby on saturday morning. I do my honing then. And anything else that needs doing like picking a new soap, rubbing my oily hands over the leather strop, checking stones for flatness, the usual enjoyable jobs.
And taking the razor that I had used the previous week, and honing it, stropping it, giving it a drop of protective ballistol and packing it away in the cigar boxes.
And picking out one razor to use in the following week.
So an ark razor gets leather for a week, then about fifty x laps on the ark on saturday before being put away.
I don't change honing methods among razors. When a razor gets assigned to a method, I keep it on that method.
so the saturday morning routine is used for everything. back when I used to use film, or my nani12.
nowadays i'm only using convex arks and diamond balsa. soon I'll be trying jnats.
honing every week is maybe a bit much, but it means I can do a light frequent honing and that's better for sharpness, I think.
the old way was to use leather for three months and then when it got dull and tuggy, to go to a synthetic progression, working 3k, 5k, 8k, up to 12k.
the new way, for me anyway, is to not let it get tuggy. to no longer use coarse hones. to go light and frequent, on a medium that would be too slow to bring back a razor that had been allowed to go dull and tuggy.
John
Chan Eil Whiskers
Fumbling about.
Thanks, John.
I have a similar plan and approach but am using about 4 or 5 razors.
I have a similar plan and approach but am using about 4 or 5 razors.
Im just going to ask a question if I may.
So right I have a full set of Ark's that I lapped when I first got them, right I know they are slow and dont wear as quick as a wetstone or a Jnat. But say after a year or so of using these convex arks and some wear takes place, how do you hone them to get the convex back in.
Or is this just a fad that's going to go away over time, and we go back to a tried and tested method of flat stone's. Lets face it if this was the best way to go why is Jarrod the only one selling these arks, this is just my take on this as I see it these arks wont work doing rolling x strokes or 45 leading edge.
The only way would be to use a wet wheel, as you could true that up time and time again or am I missing something here. As to me he is trying to reinvent the wheel on a stone.
Have we not been saying for years that your stones need to be lapped, to make sure they are flat before you use them as your trying to put a belly right at the edge of the blade using a convex stone and would that make the edge weaker.
Or am I thinking all wrong here as if you sharpen a chisel on a flat stone it works, where as you put the said chisel on a wheel it is sharper and cuts better....
As i am trying to get my head around this before I spend big money on a new set of stones that's all gents and thanks for letting me ask my questions on this.
So right I have a full set of Ark's that I lapped when I first got them, right I know they are slow and dont wear as quick as a wetstone or a Jnat. But say after a year or so of using these convex arks and some wear takes place, how do you hone them to get the convex back in.
Or is this just a fad that's going to go away over time, and we go back to a tried and tested method of flat stone's. Lets face it if this was the best way to go why is Jarrod the only one selling these arks, this is just my take on this as I see it these arks wont work doing rolling x strokes or 45 leading edge.
The only way would be to use a wet wheel, as you could true that up time and time again or am I missing something here. As to me he is trying to reinvent the wheel on a stone.
Have we not been saying for years that your stones need to be lapped, to make sure they are flat before you use them as your trying to put a belly right at the edge of the blade using a convex stone and would that make the edge weaker.
Or am I thinking all wrong here as if you sharpen a chisel on a flat stone it works, where as you put the said chisel on a wheel it is sharper and cuts better....
As i am trying to get my head around this before I spend big money on a new set of stones that's all gents and thanks for letting me ask my questions on this.
Last edited:
Chan Eil Whiskers
Fumbling about.
Maybe Jarrod still has on his site information answering some of your questions. I'm not an engineer nor do I understand terribly well some of the technical aspects of the convex stones and why they work.
However, a couple of months ago I had a conversation with my mechanical engineer friend (I was asking him how he would go about convexing a stone from scratch). He understood immediately why a convexed stone would work and how to convex one using a milling machine. It was a very interesting conversation.
I'm sure Jarrod could and would answer all your questions. Just ask him. Shoot him an email. He's a fountain of information.
My understanding is the stones are not going to need to be convexed again anytime in my lifetime even if I honed many many razors every day. The Arks are very hard. I'm not concerned at all about that issue.
Other than a dead flat stroke I think all strokes on the stones work. At least everything I've tried works. By dead flat I mean the razor is perpendicular to the long axis of the stone (for example) and stays that way throughout the stroke. My understanding here and/or my explanation could be wrong, but the main thing is the stones are not at all hard to use; it took me awhile to figure that one out and to quit overthinking their use.
It doesn't matter to me what stones anyone uses but, other than resetting the bevels on eBay specials and removing big chips and such as that, I'm pretty much using my convexed Arks for the razors I shave with. My other stones aren't getting any love now.
If I could have my Zulu Grey convexed I would. Also, I'm not saying I would never again use any of my flat stones, but, for now, everything's going swimmingly so why change anything.
I'm sure it's a huge amount of work for Jarrod to convex the stones he sells (he doesn't have a milling machine). I doubt convexing the stones pays well. Most vendors wouldn't want to go to the trouble. Jarrod seems to be "on a mission."
As I see it a guy wanting to try the convex stones only needs to buy one finishing stone. It's not like you need a pile of them. Just do what you otherwise would do and finish on the convex Ark. Having said that, I am glad to have the DCA (with it's "soft" side) because I find both sides useful.
Again, if you ask Jarrod he's likely to tell you much more than I can, but really appreciating the convex stones comes from using them for a while, at least it did for me. Yes, it was a leap of faith initially.
Happy shaves,
Jim
- Thread starter
- #498
I agree, it was a leap of faith at first.
I now believe that we don't need to worry about lapping these stones in our lifetime. That's actually the main draw for me. I've been so annoyed when honing was not working, when I found out that I had been working with a dished nani yet again.
And honing on a convex is not unusual. Every solingen razor you bought, was honed in Solingen on a convex stone. Dovo uses convexed arks to finish the razors they sell to us.
But having said that, I do use other methods as well. diamond balsa and jnats. You have to lap them of course. And you have to learn how to do it right.
convexed arks are a good idea. yes, you have to use x strokes but I think that's best anyway. and the problem with dishing is gone forever, which is nice.
I think they are only a fit if you enjoy touching up the razor frequently. If you like to let your razor go for three or four months between honing, then the ark will be frustratingly slow. You're better off with a faster hone, like a nani12 in that case. Just lap the nani with an atoma 1200 each time, and you're good.
So, I don't think that convex arks are a fad that is going to go away. I don't think it's a fad at all. It's not very popular actually. It's something that only 1% of the honing culture will ever bother with. Because flat hones work fine.
And Jarrod? My theory is that he's doing all this work for very little reward, because his real motivation is to hook up with Dovo. He has successfully become the Dovo guy for his area. And he has accomplished that by visiting Solingen many times, and by impressing their engineers that he's doing convexing just like they do. He's adopting "Dovo Culture".
So we benefit, if we want, as we can now buy a Solingen style stone, and hone just like the Solingen boys and girls do.
Maybe while I'm honing I should also wear Lederhosen and complain about Brexit.
I now believe that we don't need to worry about lapping these stones in our lifetime. That's actually the main draw for me. I've been so annoyed when honing was not working, when I found out that I had been working with a dished nani yet again.
And honing on a convex is not unusual. Every solingen razor you bought, was honed in Solingen on a convex stone. Dovo uses convexed arks to finish the razors they sell to us.
But having said that, I do use other methods as well. diamond balsa and jnats. You have to lap them of course. And you have to learn how to do it right.
convexed arks are a good idea. yes, you have to use x strokes but I think that's best anyway. and the problem with dishing is gone forever, which is nice.
I think they are only a fit if you enjoy touching up the razor frequently. If you like to let your razor go for three or four months between honing, then the ark will be frustratingly slow. You're better off with a faster hone, like a nani12 in that case. Just lap the nani with an atoma 1200 each time, and you're good.
So, I don't think that convex arks are a fad that is going to go away. I don't think it's a fad at all. It's not very popular actually. It's something that only 1% of the honing culture will ever bother with. Because flat hones work fine.
And Jarrod? My theory is that he's doing all this work for very little reward, because his real motivation is to hook up with Dovo. He has successfully become the Dovo guy for his area. And he has accomplished that by visiting Solingen many times, and by impressing their engineers that he's doing convexing just like they do. He's adopting "Dovo Culture".
So we benefit, if we want, as we can now buy a Solingen style stone, and hone just like the Solingen boys and girls do.
Maybe while I'm honing I should also wear Lederhosen and complain about Brexit.
Chan Eil Whiskers
Fumbling about.
[This is not a political statement of any form. It's a joke of sorts. See previous post.]
Happy shaves to everyone everywhere,
Jim
Hahaha now that is funny Brexit dont even go there, I live in the UK and our government cannot sort themselves out as it would hurt there pockets. They dont give 2 hoots for us we voted leave 3 years ago and they are still bickering, so it shows the rest of the world what a joke government we have.
Right back on subject but fair play to Jarrod, I can see me getting one to try it. I just wanted to know before I spent hard earned money if it was not going to work, as living in the UK shipping and import tax is going to hurt big time...
They couldn't organise a pi$$ up in a brewery
Right back on subject but fair play to Jarrod, I can see me getting one to try it. I just wanted to know before I spent hard earned money if it was not going to work, as living in the UK shipping and import tax is going to hurt big time...
