That stone's bbw wasn't super hard when I lapped it... I wonder if there really are big ol honking garnets in the back (like it looks like it has)... so it's really hard to lap now that its flat. The coti was pretty hard though.
BBW as a one-hone?
- Thread starter SpikedLemon
- Start date
I have one like that that I use as a bevel setter. If it wasn't convex, it wouldn't be suitable for razors, imo.
I have one like that too, except if anything, even finer grained, and so dark a purple it's nearly brown/black in color. It will finish a razor just as well as the coticule side, if just a tad bit slower. I would pay coticule prices for a full size BBW of this stuff. This one happens to be attached to a vintage la Veinette, so I at least know what vein to look at for it, though I've yet to see a coticule or BBW that matches it in appearance. The BBW side is fairly soft, and releases a burgundy colored slurry. The coticule side passes the hard/soft test, as a hard coticule, but slurries readily.
I suspect that your not pictured "close(ish)" stone is similar to mine. The coticule side is very hard and does not slurry. The BBW side will slurry thinly, eventually, after 70 strokes or so with a razor, or after 5-10 strokes with a knife. I suspect that the deeper into the BBW I get, the denser the manganese spotting in mine will get, eventually looking similar to the one you posted above. Before lapping, there were only three blobs of manganese showing, after lapping, I counted about 16 showing. I use the BBW side as a mid-range stone, and the coticule side as a pre-finisher. The coticule side leaves metal streaks from anything used on it, razor or knife, within a pass or two.
I lapped out a decent amount on both sides. The coticule seemed to get harder as I got closer to the line. It also began to blush.
Your small one sounds exactly like mine. I actually like the blue side better than the yellow for shaving but the yellow side is hard as a brick. Blue side is a little slower but finer and gives a better polish. I would also pay stupid money for a brick of the exact same BBW.
This is why I think people get mixed results from BBW.
The stone on the right is your bog standard typical BBW you see 99% of the time. Garnet size is all over the place, from large to smallish.
The stone in the middle is what people who are looking for a 'good' BBW look for. Fast, and loaded with consistent sized garnets. This makes up 1% of BBW.
The stone on the left is that rare .01% of BBW that makes a fantastic finisher. The garnets are so small they are just about invisible. You can see one clearly about a third of the way up from the bottom of the picture on the right hand side, and there's others scattered throughout the picture. It's the kind of stone you find once in your life, and is that rare BBW finisher.
All pictures were taken using the same magnification, using a crappy little generic Chinese 1500x USB scope. (Which is probably 50x to 400x in reality, with a .3 megapixel camera. I would estimate the magnification above is in the 75x to 100x range).
Also, I'm guessing on the percentages. They are probably kind of accurate. A guy who owns stone type #1 is going to say that BBW is not a finishing stone. The guy who owns stone type #3 is going to say BBW is absolutely a finishing stone.
They are both right.
Don't try to kid yourself though. The vast majority of BBW isn't really razor quality stone.
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After further reflection and research, I would say that the BBW on the back of my vintage 'la Veinette' is closer in character to an extra fine 'Rouge du Salm' than a true BBW, even though Rouge du Salm/La Lorraine is a different layer entirely, and is never part of a natural coticule. Several coticule layers can exhibit this rare type of BBW, though sadly, no currently mined veins do at this time.
I enjoy them for knives though rarely go for one for that purpose.
Absolutely! I use it under the kitchen faucet with the water on at a trickle. Your Yellowlake becomes “next level” when you’re no longer waiting for the feeling of completion. You know you’re done when the blade creates a vacuum in the water. When I feel I can no longer do the strokes, I stop- strop, then turn the water up and wait for that vacuum again. When I feel it, I strop one more time- then turn the water up a tad for the third and final time. Get that vacuum resistance on the blade & THAT is how ya do it on slate. No more spray bottles for me! I absolutely love my Yellowlake & can live the rest of my life using just that as my touch up stone. With a rotation of 7 or 8 razors, I touch up maybe 2 or 3 times a year as needed shaving twice weekly. Works like a champ and I didn’t spend a crazy amount of money to get there. I still want a black ark some day- but I’m in no rush! Cheers!
All the newer bbw I've use were utter garbage for razor or otherwise(except they're OK on axes) but when you get those old ones they're great. I've got 3 I shave off of but I'm pretty sure the glued combo has a la Lorraine on it because it'll lay down an edge with thuringian or Grecian keenness.
So I used this BBW on back of an antique LPB, and the resultant edge/shave was absolutely top tier in every single regard…my gut instinct tells me one of my top three finishers, though more testing with different razors is required!
This stone between the coticule side and the BBW side can certainly certainly be a one stone hone.
It actually got me very very excited, because 99% of my coticules are vintage/antique…so I did a quick look to see what I have which might have very good finishing BBW as discussed above, and just at first glance this is what I found…I have some other coticules I need to look at hanging around here in little pockets…but these came out of my main stash.
The one on the far left is a La Dressante that came to me with German stamps on the surface…it came out of the famous Philadelphia basement hoard.
2nd from the left is brick coticule which has characteristics of La Dressante, La Veinette, and La Petite Blanche…I suspect strongly that it is an LPB, but anyone’s guess…more on this one later!
3rd over is a nice old coticule that came in a nifty yellow box.
4th over…I suspect this is a La Petite Blanche coticule based off of the other two antique LPBs that arrived over the last month but it’s coticule layer is very thin. The BBW side though is a superior finisher, and I actually used it as the slurry stone for the honing on BBW session that I did yesterday…very exciting.
5th over is an antique La Petite Blanche, and it has the most wild/beautiful BBW that I have ever seen…it’s the one I used yesterday which has me so amped about BBWs as potential finishers.
6th over is another La Petite Blanche Coticule, and the coticule surface is a superior finisher…beautiful shaves off of it!
7th over is a Genuine Old Rock Coticule that also came out of the famous Philadelphia hoard! The coticule side is a superior finisher, and the BBW side is one of the finest/consistent I have ever seen.
8th over is a 5x2.5x1 suspect La veinette Veinette that came out of a barber an old barbers shop NOS with the box and it has the stamps. The BBW is as fine as the BBW on the Old Rock Coticule.
9th over is a similiar looking stone but it has seen use…the BBW looks to be as fine as #7 and #8 but it’s a little scratched. The coticule side creates an exceptionally sharp and face friendly edge!
Here is the BBW side:
I think all of these BBW surfaces are candidates to be assessed as exceptional. Please note #’s 2, 4, 5, and 6 are the only ones that have been lapped flat, and they look sexier when wet.
I won’t bore folks with close ups right now…I will post updates as I have fun lapping, dressing, and experimenting with the BBW surfaces as finishers. However, I do think that anyone interested in this thread will appreciate some close ups of brick coticule.
The coticule side is so much fun, and it is a wonderful top tier finisher!
When it came to me I didn’t even think about the BBW side…I was too excited about the coticule side, the BBW side had a chip out of the edge, and some scratches on the surface. I also dismissed the idea of using the BBW side as a finisher because most folks seem to be of the opinion that BBWs don’t make good finishers.
At any rate, check out the back dry after I finished lapping/dressing…it looks alright!
Now look at it wet!
I wrote it off…didn’t examine it closely, and look…little pink coticule freckles across the surface…AND manganese blotches on the surface that go from the surface of the coticule…all the way down through the surface of the BBW! I am no coticule expert, but I haven’t seen this before! So I thought that was pretty neat, and to me it is even more neat, because it comes with a lesson…examine my stones more closely as they come in, and don’t write off or assume anything!
Sorry for the length of this post, but we are all enthusiasts, and I am VERY excited after yesterday evenings shave!
This stone between the coticule side and the BBW side can certainly certainly be a one stone hone.
It actually got me very very excited, because 99% of my coticules are vintage/antique…so I did a quick look to see what I have which might have very good finishing BBW as discussed above, and just at first glance this is what I found…I have some other coticules I need to look at hanging around here in little pockets…but these came out of my main stash.
The one on the far left is a La Dressante that came to me with German stamps on the surface…it came out of the famous Philadelphia basement hoard.
2nd from the left is brick coticule which has characteristics of La Dressante, La Veinette, and La Petite Blanche…I suspect strongly that it is an LPB, but anyone’s guess…more on this one later!
3rd over is a nice old coticule that came in a nifty yellow box.
4th over…I suspect this is a La Petite Blanche coticule based off of the other two antique LPBs that arrived over the last month but it’s coticule layer is very thin. The BBW side though is a superior finisher, and I actually used it as the slurry stone for the honing on BBW session that I did yesterday…very exciting.
5th over is an antique La Petite Blanche, and it has the most wild/beautiful BBW that I have ever seen…it’s the one I used yesterday which has me so amped about BBWs as potential finishers.
6th over is another La Petite Blanche Coticule, and the coticule surface is a superior finisher…beautiful shaves off of it!
7th over is a Genuine Old Rock Coticule that also came out of the famous Philadelphia hoard! The coticule side is a superior finisher, and the BBW side is one of the finest/consistent I have ever seen.
8th over is a 5x2.5x1 suspect La veinette Veinette that came out of a barber an old barbers shop NOS with the box and it has the stamps. The BBW is as fine as the BBW on the Old Rock Coticule.
9th over is a similiar looking stone but it has seen use…the BBW looks to be as fine as #7 and #8 but it’s a little scratched. The coticule side creates an exceptionally sharp and face friendly edge!
Here is the BBW side:
I think all of these BBW surfaces are candidates to be assessed as exceptional. Please note #’s 2, 4, 5, and 6 are the only ones that have been lapped flat, and they look sexier when wet.
I won’t bore folks with close ups right now…I will post updates as I have fun lapping, dressing, and experimenting with the BBW surfaces as finishers. However, I do think that anyone interested in this thread will appreciate some close ups of brick coticule.
The coticule side is so much fun, and it is a wonderful top tier finisher!
When it came to me I didn’t even think about the BBW side…I was too excited about the coticule side, the BBW side had a chip out of the edge, and some scratches on the surface. I also dismissed the idea of using the BBW side as a finisher because most folks seem to be of the opinion that BBWs don’t make good finishers.
At any rate, check out the back dry after I finished lapping/dressing…it looks alright!
Now look at it wet!
I wrote it off…didn’t examine it closely, and look…little pink coticule freckles across the surface…AND manganese blotches on the surface that go from the surface of the coticule…all the way down through the surface of the BBW! I am no coticule expert, but I haven’t seen this before! So I thought that was pretty neat, and to me it is even more neat, because it comes with a lesson…examine my stones more closely as they come in, and don’t write off or assume anything!
Sorry for the length of this post, but we are all enthusiasts, and I am VERY excited after yesterday evenings shave!
Welcome to the dark side of the bbw lover. You may not love them yet but with your selection, you will. Very nice stones Matt.
Thanks Nicholas! It will be fun to try these out!
I look forward to your write ups.
Today I flattened and dressed the one above that is on the far left which came out of the Philadelphia Hoard and is a superb natural coticule, so it is also ready for use on the BBW side. I also cut up the 4th stone from the left into slurry stones. It is an amazing finisher on the BBW side, and so I will be very happy to use the slurry stones in this new endeavor/experiment!
I finished a razor on the Brick Coticule BBW Side yesterday!
The edge felt fantastic on my face, it was just a wonderful shave!
Today I took this 5x2.5 coticule, and flattened/dressed the BBW side!
Note the pink on the side, and how the manganese vein on the coticule surface runs through the BBW surface!
The coticule side produces an amazingly sharp and face friendly edge! I can’t wait to see what the BBW side can do! I will use the same slurry stone, because I think it’s part of the special sauce!
I think most folks agree the modern BBW isn’t all that great for finishing razors (I don’t have experience with modern BBW yet, so I don’t have an opinion)…but these antique natural combos with BBW are 3 for 3 in producing an amazing shaving edge.
It seems that perhaps, just like with the coticules, certain characteristics in the BBW surface are clues as to its quality. The three I have tried have had some or all of these: black/blue orbs, tiny coticule/pink freckles that are more easily observed when the surface is wet, extremely fine brown color, manganese splotches or veins down through the BBW surface, visually fine/pure/consistent dark purple/black coloring.
Just my initial thoughts off of the three I have tried…the 5x2.5 above will be a fourth antique BBW I have shaved off of…fingers crossed and I will report back sometime later next week. I have a stone arriving today I need to try next.
The edge felt fantastic on my face, it was just a wonderful shave!
Today I took this 5x2.5 coticule, and flattened/dressed the BBW side!
Note the pink on the side, and how the manganese vein on the coticule surface runs through the BBW surface!
The coticule side produces an amazingly sharp and face friendly edge! I can’t wait to see what the BBW side can do! I will use the same slurry stone, because I think it’s part of the special sauce!
I think most folks agree the modern BBW isn’t all that great for finishing razors (I don’t have experience with modern BBW yet, so I don’t have an opinion)…but these antique natural combos with BBW are 3 for 3 in producing an amazing shaving edge.
It seems that perhaps, just like with the coticules, certain characteristics in the BBW surface are clues as to its quality. The three I have tried have had some or all of these: black/blue orbs, tiny coticule/pink freckles that are more easily observed when the surface is wet, extremely fine brown color, manganese splotches or veins down through the BBW surface, visually fine/pure/consistent dark purple/black coloring.
Just my initial thoughts off of the three I have tried…the 5x2.5 above will be a fourth antique BBW I have shaved off of…fingers crossed and I will report back sometime later next week. I have a stone arriving today I need to try next.
I think your descriptive characteristics are spot on for picking good bbw. Only one I would add is that the more reddish/ wine colored ones produce a very sharp shaving edge in my experience.
There should be a show off your BBW thread ha. My spotted coticule is pretty fast but better suited for knives IMO (BBW and yellow were heavily dished when I got in, I'm guessing it was for pocket knives). I think with this stone the BBW is more fine but have not really tested it out. This stone is more of a looker for whenever I am fighting off HAD for a new coticule.
I will add that I have always preferred the yellow on coticules. I do think though using the BBW before the yellow adds another level of smoothness.
That is a nice one Christian! You should lap it with a 1200 Atoma to generate the slurry, and then dilute it down as you would on a coticule…followed by finishing under water at the sink!
You might be pleasantly surprised!
I agree some visual characteristics are clues you have something special. There is a lot of beauty In Belgian Blues that often go unnoticed. I’m glad to see they are starting to get some recognition. Here is one I have had good results with.
I also have some more modern Ardennes ones that I’ve had good results with. I’ll try & take some pics later & post.
