Anyone tried boron carbide?

[ken123]

And here I thought the biggest problem would be the differences between the BC and CBN, not whether my hair would fall out from using it!

Your hair WILL fall out from using it but not from radiation, but as each hair gets cut with your 128,000 grit edge Hope you like it, Tom. Let me know if it's fine enough

Any mods out there? Is it ok to post more details here specific to my products here for the members? I don't want to step out of line.

---
Ken

 

[superbleu]

Welcome to B&B Ken, good to see you here.
I'll try have a mod contact you soon.

When will you get this stuff in stock? I keep checking Mark's site daily hoping it will be there for sale.

 

[ken123]

Welcome to B&B Ken, good to see you here.
I'll try have a mod contact you soon.

When will you get this stuff in stock? I keep checking Mark's site daily hoping it will be there for sale.

Mark is's putting it up - in "Ken's Corner" I already have it in stock in multiple grits from a 'coarse' 12,000 grit to 128,000 grit (eighth micron) as well as diamonds from a quarter micron to 25 nanometers or 640,000 grit.

Specifically the CBN goes from (1.75 micron) 12000, (0.75 micron) 24000, (0.5 micron) 32000, (0.25 micron) 64000, and (0.125 micron) 128000.

The poly diamond goes from quarter micron, tenth, twentieth or 0.050 to 0.025 or fortieth or 64k 160k 320k and 640k. I can get 0.015 (15 nanometer) or 1.2 million grit, but it is ridiculously expensive.

I carry these same grits in monocrystaline diamond too except for the quarter micron, which you can get from Keith's Hand America compounds, also on Mark's site along with his other excellent products.

Thanks for the warm welcome. I see lots of friends here. Should have joined this party sooner. If my answer is too 'commercial', please delete it. And feel free to ask me any CBN, BC or diamond related questions and I'll give my best shot at answering them.

---
Ken

 

[honed]

It is my understanding that Boron (an element in cubic boron nitride as well as boron carbide) has two naturally occuring forms a b10 and b11 form, neither of which are radioactive, composing 20 and 80% of the total, respectively. The other radioisotopes (radioactive isotopes) include b8 b9 b12 and b13 not found in nature with half lives well under a second varying from .77 seconds to 8 x 10 to the -19th power seconds. Boron is used in products that are ingested (used in metabolic studies) and placed on the skin (cosmetics) as well as used to wash your clothes, etc. , all circumstances where alpha emitters would be particularly dangerous. In short, there is little to worry about. In powder form, as with almost all abrasives you shouldn't inhale it or drink it. I would wash my hands after using it, as I would with any abrasives just to be on the safe side and avoid getting it in the eyes (again as with any abrasive).

I have used Keith's Boron carbide preparation and recommend it.

Regarding the CBN preparations, if it is OK with the Mods, I would be happy to discuss it and answer any questions in general as well as specifics about my products as I don't yet have a large number of posts on this forum, but hope to be a useful contributor to this forum.

---
Ken

Great to have you here,
Welcome aboard!

What is your opinion on the BC & CBN when it it come to "harsness" of an edge. Basically what I'm after is that an edge stropped down to .25my diamond paste if very sharp but to harsh for my delicate face.
For knives this "harshness" could be a good thing, actually makes it grip the material being cut better. But not on my face

Tom honed a razor for me on the 30K Shapton Pro & that edge is just as sharp, but not nearly as harsh.
What I dream of finding is a paste that does what .25 diamond does, but with out that harshness. How does CBN act on an egde?

I know I have read that straight razor can't take much more (or elss) then .25 my, after that it just gets to thin & crumbles away.
Any opinions on this matter?

Again, great to have a man of your reputation among us!

 

[ken123]

Honed,

Thank you for such a gracious introduction! While I do have a good bit of experience regarding synthetic and natural stones and abrasive compounds, I would be overstepping the limits of my knowledge regarding razor honing to authoritatively answer your question. I'm certainly here to learn and realize that razor honing and knife sharpening are different creatures. I've sent Tom some of the CBN compounds so he can compare the CBN edges he gets with his 30k and also to see if following the 30k further refines the edge into an edge that is comfortable to shave with, so stay tuned.

Regarding diamond, while I have quarter micron Polycrystaline diamond of extremely high quality, one of the first questions will be whether or not poly or mono forms produce a more comfortable edge. Then the next question would be if finer compounds of either mono or poly resulted in a sharper edge that was also more comfortable or just sharper. Surely this would be interesting to figure out.

This should be a good topic of discussion for a while.

My suspicion is that the even finer compounds will give a smoother shave. Still it would be interesting to compare CRO, diamond and CBN all at 0.5 microns and go from there.

Regarding the idea that more than a quarter micron would cause edge crumbling, I would think that if the edge angles were the same the degree of refinement shouldn't cause edge crumbling. Again my best guess - nothing more. Perhaps not reaching a final edge before quarter micron would allow further reinement with no burr generation or crumbling.

---
Ken


---
Ken

 

[honed]

Honed,

Thank you for such a gracious introduction! While I do have a good bit of experience regarding synthetic and natural stones and abrasive compounds, I would be overstepping the limits of my knowledge regarding razor honing to authoritatively answer your question. I'm certainly here to learn and realize that razor honing and knife sharpening are different creatures. I've sent Tom some of the CBN compounds so he can compare the CBN edges he gets with his 30k and also to see if following the 30k further refines the edge into an edge that is comfortable to shave with, so stay tuned.

Regarding diamond, while I have quarter micron Polycrystaline diamond of extremely high quality, one of the first questions will be whether or not poly or mono forms produce a more comfortable edge. Then the next question would be if finer compounds of either mono or poly resulted in a sharper edge that was also more comfortable or just sharper. Surely this would be interesting to figure out.

This should be a good topic of discussion for a while.

My suspicion is that the even finer compounds will give a smoother shave. Still it would be interesting to compare CRO, diamond and CBN all at 0.5 microns and go from there.

Regarding the idea that more than a quarter micron would cause edge crumbling, I would think that if the edge angles were the same the degree of refinement shouldn't cause edge crumbling. Again my best guess - nothing more. Perhaps not reaching a final edge before quarter micron would allow further reinement with no burr generation or crumbling.

---
Ken


---
Ken

That is some interesting ideas!

I know DMT states that they use mono-crystalline diamond for all their plates, because it lasts much longer according to them.
But as for pastes I have never seen anyone mention what is the best tio use.
And most paste/sprays don't even mention if it's mono or poly?

There is a big difference between CrOx & Diamond in .5my I think
If I hone a razor up to 10K naniwa superstone (shave-ready) , Crox will result in a smoother edge, not much sharper.
The egde is smooth enough after the 10K, but gets even smoother after 10 laps on leather pasted with CrOx.

But 10 laps on .5 diamond on leather gives a noticably sharper edge, but also a bit harsher. A tad too harsh for me.
Some say that diamond on felt takes away harshness, but I really can't feel any difference between felt or leather.
Another way to go is 10 on leather/diamond followed by 10 on leather/CrOx. The CrOx smooths the harshness of the diamond somewhat, but doesn't cause any dulling.
The edge is just as sharp as after 10 laps on diamond only.
There is a lot of variables here. And a lot of fun experiments to do!

Knife sharpening & razor honing is certainly two different things, but I do belive that experience in one thing really shortens the time that it takes to learn the other.
I've always found sharp things interesting & enjoyed sharpening my own knifes & chisels & such. But it was always to a point where the knife or tool was "sharp enough."
Since I picked up honing it's more of "how sharp can this knife or chisel be"
So both hobbies complement each other.

I've tried Tom's 30K edge (wrote a bit here about it)& I've discussed sharpening alot with him over PM.
A very knowledgeable guy so his opinion will certainly be valueable for me to hear, once he can let go of those pesky school books & focus on really important things

 

[DaveMartell]

Interesting conversation here, thanks everyone.

 

[ken123]

Just got off the phone with Tom, who did an 1/8 micron CBN edge following a 30k Shapton Pro. He can give details. - intermediate steps, etc. He's going to see how it works out tomorrow. He knows its way sharper than a 30k edge but we'll see how comfortable his shave is. Stay tuned.

Ken

 

[honed]

Just got off the phone with Tom, who did an 1/8 micron CBN edge following a 30k Shapton Pro. He can give details. - intermediate steps, etc. He's going to see how it works out tomorrow. He knows its way sharper than a 30k edge but we'll see how comfortable his shave is. Stay tuned.

Ken

Great to hear!
I'll follow this closely.

 

[kwigibocity]

I've had some a good while now. When we'd had a stock of about two dozen old wedges, we used it atop a translucent Arkansas stone with water to hone them every time. Customers loved the razors.

It took 15-20 minutes, but if I'd run it on that stone long enough I was able to consistently get the office hairbrush testers to sever with no sound at all, no real visible physical reaction to the edge, either-just an immediate and silent separation. Same goes for the odd restored wedge; after DMTs and the like I'd run on that same 2x12" Arkie w/ the boron stuff...and whattya know, they'd cut that same way, too.

Results were great, but the same can be said for many options.

 

[superbleu]

Jarrod, what size/s are you using of this stuff?

 

[jendeindustries]

Well, I shaved last night

One of the issues I have in general with pastes and sprays is the fact that I hone on the stones edge leading, and when I switch to a paste or spray, it needs to be edge trailing. With that in mind, I stepped a razor back down to the 8K level, then used the HA 1 micron Boride Carbide on some balsa to establish an edge trailing pattern. I progressed to Ken's .5 CBN, the .25 HA 21 carat diamond, and finally on to Ken's 0.125 CBN (confusing, I know!) all on balsa.

The edge kept getting cleaner and cleaner as I progressed, and there were visible changes in the edge under the scope after using each product. One thing for sure, the 0.125 CBN is noticeably sharper than the 30K Shapton edge. Usually, I can catch hairs off the 30K on my arm, but the 0.125 CBN was like a lawn mower. I was thinking it might be too aggressive for shaving because of the way it just grabbed the hairs.

So I stropped and lathered up (Olivia's Farn with my Penworks brush, BTW) and went for it.

On the face, it was definitely sharper than a Shapton 30K edge. It was actually quite smooth, and for my sensitive skin and iron man beard combo, I would rate it just on the border of being too sharp. (I'm funny, though because I also think Chromium Oxide is too smooth...)

After the shave was quite normal. A little more sensitive than usual, but nothing like shaving with a rough razor or an over-honed edge.

I will need to go back and see how the .5 CBN compares with the Shaptons and the HA .25 diamond. But as an initial review, I think for those who like sharper edges, the 0.125 CBN is something to try.

 

[handamerican]

Hello All,
Haven't been here in awhile, nice to see Tom and Ken posting - Two very astute fellows when it comes to blade care who I have a great deal of respect for.

For what it's worth I've been using a straight razor since 1980, I started because I gave up corporate life and didn't have to shave every day and the disposables just couuldn't handle three to four days of growth.

My first razor was a Fromm picked up at a beauty supply store and it shaved perfectly right out of the box - kind of spoiled me.

Like most, I have over 200 razors and use just a few. I don't like using stones so I keep the blades in shape with a good strop. When the time comes for a tune up I use compounds and diamond on balsa, card stock, and film.

Maybe my regimin will help some folks. I usually start with a two micron polycrystalline compound then move to a one micron poly in the Moh's 8.5 to 9.5 range. The poly shapes are inclined to leave micro teeth in the edge.

I'll typically finish with half and quarter micron compounds that are monocrystalline in shape with a Moh's of 8.5 to 10.

I find that finishing with the mono shaped particles removes the micro teeth and gives me what I call a very sharp but 'soft' edge which is less inclined to scrape the skin.

A good test as to whether your razor is scraping your skin rather than cutting hair is whether your face stings when you use after shave. If so, you might want to consider softening the edge up a bit.

After the 1st I'll post a bit more here, it's a good group.

Joel - if you're reading this I'll be in touch.
Keith

 

[superbleu]

Good to see you posting here Keith!!!

 

[honed]

Oh my!

This thread gets better & better!

I now count 4 Heavyweight Pro Sharpeners posting in this single thread

Tom:
Thanks a lot for your review!
I know that frameback of mine was tricky on the hones..
Feel free to feed it some CBN


Keith:
Welcome aboard, so nice to have you here

 

[ken123]

Nice Review Tom!!

Keith, what a treat! Makes me think of our get together in 'Jersey', but with more guests.

This could be great fun.

---
Ken

 

[jendeindustries]

Thanks Keith! That means a lot coming from you!

It's good to be amongst friends!

 

[jendeindustries]

I wanted to shave off of another razor tonight, but time was against me to finish it. So I grabbed the Reynolds Wedge that is supposed to go out (I wasn't satisfied with the other razor yet, Jens...) and gave it 5 light strokes on the 0.125 CBN on Balsa. This time I stropped a little more to try to calm down the edge a little (perhaps I shouldn't have refreshed it...)

This time was Olivia's Sandalwood with my penworks brush (it's finally cold enough here to use more of the winter flavors!)

WTG was smoother this time, the first time felt more "crisp" by comparison. ATG was also not as scary. The first time was comparable to using a feather blade ATG - you can do it, but it is scary. I was feeling pretty good about the whole thing this time around, so I went for the 3rd pass. Still a little sharp, but again, calmer than the first time. After the shave feels about the same - a light tingle, but no irritation or redness. The BBS after the 3rd pass is really nice, too...

Conclusions: I stropped only 20 times on my Kanayama 50,000 the first time around, and this time I did around 50. Under the scope, there was a slight rounding visible, which seemed to take some of that sharp feeling off the edge. It's still borderline "sharp" for me, but like I said, a little calmer this time. (don't forget that Chromium Oxide is too smooth for me, too.)

I hope this helps!

 

[honed]

I wanted to shave off of another razor tonight, but time was against me to finish it. So I grabbed the Reynolds Wedge that is supposed to go out (I wasn't satisfied with the other razor yet, Jens...) and gave it 5 light strokes on the 0.125 CBN on Balsa. This time I stropped a little more to try to calm down the edge a little (perhaps I shouldn't have refreshed it...)

This time was Olivia's Sandalwood with my penworks brush (it's finally cold enough here to use more of the winter flavors!)

WTG was smoother this time, the first time felt more "crisp" by comparison. ATG was also not as scary. The first time was comparable to using a feather blade ATG - you can do it, but it is scary. I was feeling pretty good about the whole thing this time around, so I went for the 3rd pass. Still a little sharp, but again, calmer than the first time. After the shave feels about the same - a light tingle, but no irritation or redness. The BBS after the 3rd pass is really nice, too...

Conclusions: I stropped only 20 times on my Kanayama 50,000 the first time around, and this time I did around 50. Under the scope, there was a slight rounding visible, which seemed to take some of that sharp feeling off the edge. It's still borderline "sharp" for me, but like I said, a little calmer this time. (don't forget that Chromium Oxide is too smooth for me, too.)

I hope this helps!

It sure helps a lot!
Just reading your review makes me want to pick up some of that good CBN stuff.

But I maybe should try a razor honed on it first... Oh wait, I am going to try one
If I can pry it out of your hands that is

I find it interesting that you get better results with stopping stone honing at "only" 8K then make a succession of pastes.
Seems perfectly logical with your explanation, but not the "common" way to do it. Most (including myself) add it first after a very high grit stone.
But then again, this aint no ordinary paste either.
I had no idea how interesting this thread would turn out when I started it with my simple question.

I think what we see here is a really good marriage between Mr. Sharpening & Mrs. Honing were the Baby is a laser sword sharp 160 year old straight

 

[jendeindustries]

The HA stuff works quite fast. I have it loaded quite thick on the balsa, and I think the pure abrasive powder/liquid (whatever it is) acts faster than suspended abrasives in a fixed matrix, like stones. But to be honest, I wasn't interested as much in the bevel since I wanted to just establish the edge trailing pattern. FWIW, I did do a few strokes.

I don't think it is necessary to switch over to pastes so soon (especially since I love my stones!), but the razor was previously honed, and I also wanted to see how compatible the HA products were with Ken's. They have a very nice synergy.

Anyway, I think you'll experience a new kind of BBS off the Reynolds