...Amused by the conflation of "efficiency" and price

[Esox]

I remember several threads and photos depicting your personal R41 as damaged, warped, crooked, misaligned or something of that nature. Is this the razor you are basing these efficiency comparisons on? Not sure if that's a valid test if made with the razor I saw in your photographs with one high corner and a low spot.

Yes but, let me get my flak jacket on lol.

My warped, twisted and poorly cast R41 issues arent really the problem I have with it nor do they have a profound effect on my shave. I took those pictures and showed them because of all the 'perfect Muhle quality' posts I've seen around. Sure they have great plating, but plating doesnt make the razor any more than price does.

My issue with the R41 is the baseplate and the inherent lack of blade support. A Gillette NEW LC has far more support and I had the same issue with it. Those issues are exaggerated by the basic EJ/Muhle/Merkur design. I dont need to use an EJ or Merkur to know they will shave in much the same manner as the R41 in regards to blade flex during my shave.

For me, the blade is going to flex and skip. The design of the baseplate and the lack of blade support even makes my third pass, which is done directly ATG, with my R41 and a fresh Feather blade, difficult. I can feel the blade on the verge of flexing and skipping. As long as I do my part, I can minimize that, but only with a Feather blade, and its risky on the second shave with the same blade. My first shave with my R41 was with a Derby Extra, one of my top 3 blades. The first stroke, WTG on my cheek, the blade skipped. In my Grande, a Derby Extra is a stunningly smooth shave done in two passes and one small clean up. The main difference between the two razors being baseplate support.

Using my R41 and a fresh Feather blade its 3 full passes and 2-3 clean ups, all done at a shallow angle. Its a slow and cautious shave doing my best to ensure the blade flex is kept to a minimum. By contrast, I can use my Grande and a Polsilver on shave 20 and its a single buffing pass done directly ATG and one small clean up. Both the Fatip and R41 have generous blade exposure so they both shave closely, but because the Fatip is a more rigid design it allows me to shave ATG sooner, more comfortably and more securely. That, is why I say my Grande is more efficient than my R41.

The NEW SC, post war Tech and Gillette Old Types all allow me to shave the same way directly ATG first pass, but because they have less blade exposure than my Grande, they're less efficient. They all however, have full baseplate support.

I have complete confidence I could also shave directly ATG first pass with a WR1, and would given the opportunity, the same as I could the RR DE1 and I've never used either razor. Its all in the design and the baseplate support. I dont need to use the razor to understand that.
_______

To the NEW SC/Wolfman fiasco; No I dont own a Wolfman, nor do I believe I need to shave with one to understand how it will perform. I already know, based on its design, that it will be a wonderfully smooth shaver. Will it be smoother than a SC? Maybe. Is that slight difference worth the added expense of a $300+ Wolfman? Not to me. If it is to you, by all means, get one. My only point was, relevant to this thread, do not overlook inexpensive, old and perhaps less thought of vintage razors. They may very well surprise you as they did me and I would assume @Cl3anShav3 when he made his comparison.

I have the utmost respect for James and his razors. I really dont understand how that was misconstrued. He was, and perhaps still is, the only razor maker I know of on Earth that will tailor make a razor to the clients specifications. That seems a pretty large plus to me and I dont even want one. It should be an even larger plus to those that are interested in Wolfman razors.

I don't think it's nicer looking, even arguably

Eye of the beholder.

 

[GaryTha]

As with any productive debate, the participants should ‘define terms’ before asserting a position. I’ve read this post closely, and I’m not certain that anyone has defined the essential terms. Terms like ‘efficient’, ‘better’, ‘smoothness’, ‘quality’, ‘expensive’ et cetera are easily influenced by one’s personal experience and, perhaps, one’s own bias (recency bias, cost bias, they own stock in Fatip, etc.).


Until terms are clearly defined, this thread will just continue to be an exercise in question-begging.

@Hannah's Dad, excellent post!
Efficiency is a value concept, like happiness, that can only be defined by attributes. What makes me happy may not make other's happy. In my opinion, an attribute that expresses something different than speed or cost for specific goals may not be efficiency. It may be something else.

Quality

• DFS
• No nicks or razor burn

Pleasure

• Self-defined. For me, I allocate 20 minutes of washing and shaving because I like it. I also enjoy inexpensive. I have a financial background, so I've created a triple-entry financial statement.

Efficiency

• Under 10 cents a shave including depreciation of hard assets over 1,000 days.
• Twenty minutes a shave
• Technique

In any production system, there is always a single process that can be modified for the most improvement as defined by the user. I'm only 21 days into DE shaving, and the last seven have been DFS/nick or razor burn free.

Daily use:

• Van der Hagen Razor
• Wilkinson blades
• Dr. Bronner's peppermint soap for prewash
• Barbasol - 3 passes + a wet buffing pass
• Mennen Skin Bracer
• Alum powder from the spice rack if needed.

My next purchase is an inexpensive adjustable razor.
My next tracking activity will be creating a daily expense/quality log.

 

[muzichead]

I need to try the Ti version. I have the SS OC scalloped 95. Is the Ti more efficient than the SS or is the appeal weight and face feel?

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

I have never shaved with any of the stainless versions but from what I've read in various posts is the titanium has a very specific face feel over the stainless. Whether this lends to being more efficient, I couldn't tell you without trying a stainless version, I can however tell you that the face feel is different from any razor I've ever shaved with and it just has a soft feel overall... Like I said, the best shaves I've ever had have been delivered with the Ti in hand and can't imagine any other razor coming close to what it delivers for me!! I will admit that anything polished and shiny, per say, has no place in my cabinet or life, as I much prefer a satin or brushed finish on almost anything I use.

 

[Uncas]

The entire premise of this thread begins with a condescending point of view and it deteriorates from there.

 

[THall]

This is a tough thread because I think it depends on the user. At the same time, I think for those manufacturers which produce more than a few razors, to charge more for one based on perceived or actual efficiency is a bit out of hand. I don’t equate this with production costs. A perfect example is the GC .68 and .84 razors. I think IB charges a few bucks more for the .84 because there is more material. Just like clothing manufacturers do the same thing.

Charging more than a few bucks, like $20 or more, I believe is unnecessary and I see that in the modern razor industry. We are growing out there, but we are still in a niche market so some manufacturers can get away with this. They do this because we let them.

If you want to purchase a work of art, go ahead and buy that expensive razor. Nothing wrong with that. If you want to buy that Bali and you love the shave, go grab one. Unfortunately, when someone posts their love for their Bali razor on the threads, ultimately the negative comments will start pouring in. I get great BBS shaves from my Fendrihan Mark II just like my Timeless 95 OC, but heaven help me if I ever did a shave by shave comparison review on here.

We do this to ourselves.

 

[Razorcan]

I have been shaving with ONE razor since 2000.A 30 euro Merkur 34c.Before that I have shaved with a 60s Gillette Fatboy my father gave me when I started shaving in 1980.
So all I have used for almost forty years are TWO razors.Both were/are very ....efficient simply because I know HOW to shave.
A $300 razor for better efficiency?
Gimme a break....

 

[Uncas]

I have been shaving with ONE razor since 2000.A 30 euro Merkur 34c.Before that I have shaved with a 60s Gillette Fatboy my father gave me when I started shaving in 1980.
So all I have used for almost forty years are TWO razors.Both were/are very ....efficient simply because I know HOW to shave.
A $300 razor for better efficiency?
Gimme a break....

It's a straw man argument based upon the assumption that someone somewhere said that price begets performance. Somebody show me where that claim was made. Some folks enjoy owning high end razors simply for the pleasure, so lets just hate them for that and be done with it.

 

[AimlessWanderer]

I get great BBS shaves from my Fendrihan Mark II just like my Timeless 95 OC, but heaven help me if I ever did a shave by shave comparison review on here.

We do this to ourselves.

Agreed!

It is a topic likely to get some people tetchy, whatever is said, and there are plenty of people who have strong views on razors, and aren't shy about putting them forward.

My favourite razor is an Edwin Jagger because it gives me great shaves. However, try recommending that, and it won't be long before someone wades in and says don't buy that junk metal zamac crap, get a proper razor instead. I find that irritating. Very irritating. Especially when they tell me I should go and buy some clapped out old thing that's already got 60 years on the clock, with worn plating, half worn out mechanisms jammed up with other people's dead skin cells, cracks that don't necessarily show up on the sales pics and bent combs and loose handles from being dropped heck knows how many times ... and then defend it by saying it's ok you can get them fixed and replated... but still sneer at me for contemplating replacing my worn Jagger cap.

(any vintage owners get their feathers ruffled then? )



In this topic, those proud of their premium razors, might take umbridge with someone saying their sub 30 quid cheapo shaves just as well as, or better than, the stupidly overpriced stuff. Those with cheaper razors getting great shaves may get cheesed off by people selling the virtues of their premium razor over the cheap Chinese or pot metal garbage.

We get quite attached to our favourites, and don't like when they're subject to scrutiny that puts them in a bad light, be that longevity, rigidity, precision, price, or whatever else. The more passionately someone sells the virtue of their razor over yours, the more the razor we like gets talked down... and folks get their grumpy face on.

So should we have this conversation? Of course we should, but we mustn't lose track of the fact that every razor we hate or say isn't worth buying, will have its fans too, and they'll be just as passionate about their razor as we are about ours.

 

[Uncas]

Again, where's the claim someone supposedly made that a premium price equates to premium performance? This entire diatribe is based upon that assertion. It's an exercise in futility to wail at a comment that was never made. I too would refute that claim if it were ever even made. Show me.
No I don't own expensive razors, nor do I think those that do are fools.

 

[mozartman]

The entire premise of this thread begins with a condescending point of view and it deteriorates from there.

Maybe, but I feel I'm able to extract useful information here and set any condescension, chest-thumping, ego clashes and everything else that inevitably goes on in an internet discussion group aside. And here's something else: Whether I ever buy a Wolfman or not, and whether it would shave significantly better for me than various other razors or not, I think we can all agree the man behind that brand and the other "artisan makers" have made a significant contribution to the DE razor industry. The very idea of a DE razor as a high quality, well made product had faded away over the course of the 20th century, at least in the US. They have helped bring it back. So, it's all good.

 

[AimlessWanderer]

I think we can all agree the man behind that brand and the other "artisan makers" have made a significant contribution to the DE razor industry.

Hear, Hear

 

[Esox]

And here's something else: Whether I ever buy a Wolfman or not, and whether it would shave significantly better for me than various other razors or not, I think we can all agree the man behind that brand and the other "artisan makers" have made a significant contribution to the DE razor industry.

 

[muzichead]

I think its very interesting that until I purchased a $200+ razor my shaves were mediocre at best, yet from the very 1st shave with my Ti Timeless the shaves were the best I'd ever had. I don't think there was anything wrong with my technique at that point as I'd not changed anything from the Fatboy, Wunderbar, DOC, 34C, post war, and a few others yet the Timeless shaved the way it did from the 1st shave!! I was seriously debating going back to a multi-blade cartridge razor until I bought the Timeless, I'm glad I didn't now... Yet someone is going to make a blanket statement that my technique isn't on point!! What is wrong with people??????????

 

[MaineYooper]

Agreed!

It is a topic likely to get some people tetchy, whatever is said, and there are plenty of people who have strong views on razors, and aren't shy about putting them forward.

My favourite razor is an Edwin Jagger because it gives me great shaves. However, try recommending that, and it won't be long before someone wades in and says don't buy that junk metal zamac crap, get a proper razor instead. I find that irritating. Very irritating. Especially when they tell me I should go and buy some clapped out old thing that's already got 60 years on the clock, with worn plating, half worn out mechanisms jammed up with other people's dead skin cells, cracks that don't necessarily show up on the sales pics and bent combs and loose handles from being dropped heck knows how many times ... and then defend it by saying it's ok you can get them fixed and replated... but still sneer at me for contemplating replacing my worn Jagger cap.

(any vintage owners get their feathers ruffled then? )

[emoji317]

In this topic, those proud of their premium razors, might take umbridge with someone saying their sub 30 quid cheapo shaves just as well as, or better than, the stupidly overpriced stuff. Those with cheaper razors getting great shaves may get cheesed off by people selling the virtues of their premium razor over the cheap Chinese or pot metal garbage.

We get quite attached to our favourites, and don't like when they're subject to scrutiny that puts them in a bad light, be that longevity, rigidity, precision, price, or whatever else. The more passionately someone sells the virtue of their razor over yours, the more the razor we like gets talked down... and folks get their grumpy face on.

So should we have this conversation? Of course we should, but we mustn't lose track of the fact that every razor we hate or say isn't worth buying, will have its fans too, and they'll be just as passionate about their razor as we are about ours.

Well said!

Eric; M, Karve Diem, BOSC

 

[weekly]

I have often wondered (because my most expensive razor purchase was $45) whether people who buy a $200+ razor maintain the level of excitement for it past the first week of receiving it. Does the expensive razor remain impressive once it melds into the collection alongside vintage Gillettes? Or does it become "just another razor" once it passes through the rotation a few times?

I'm hoping that @BigJ who if I'm not mistaken uses a Wolfman will step in
And offer us a positive answer.

 

[weekly]

My ATT SE1 is worth every penny and then some.

Well it's about time someone chimed in
With a counter opinion to what appears
To be the Cheapskate Snobbery that is
Dominating this thread, although valid
A variety of opinions is preferable.

 

[weekly]

The entire premise of this thread begins with a condescending point of view and it deteriorates from there.

Yes this thread seems to have been
Posted with the intention of creating
A race to the bottom .

 

[AimlessWanderer]

I think its very interesting that until I purchased a $200+ razor my shaves were mediocre at best, yet from the very 1st shave with my Ti Timeless the shaves were the best I'd ever had. I don't think there was anything wrong with my technique at that point as I'd not changed anything from the Fatboy, Wunderbar, DOC, 34C, post war, and a few others yet the Timeless shaved the way it did from the 1st shave!! I was seriously debating going back to a multi-blade cartridge razor until I bought the Timeless, I'm glad I didn't now... Yet someone is going to make a blanket statement that my technique isn't on point!! What is wrong with people??????????

It sound like you get with the Timeless exactly what I get from the Jagger DE3D14. A good fit.

My first shave with the Parker 22 that I got at the same time was an eye opener. Far more aggressive than anything I'd used before, and it took a few shaves to tame it. The Jagger however, just felt right. In the hand, on the face, just felt completely natural. It matched my handling too, I don't mean technique specifically, as I did have to adjust a little to it from what I was used to, but my general shaving style. The right weight, balance, aggression, everything. It's a great feeling when you find "your" razor.

 

[loot]

I have never shaved with any of the stainless versions but from what I've read in various posts is the titanium has a very specific face feel over the stainless. Whether this lends to being more efficient, I couldn't tell you without trying a stainless version, I can however tell you that the face feel is different from any razor I've ever shaved with and it just has a soft feel overall... Like I said, the best shaves I've ever had have been delivered with the Ti in hand and can't imagine any other razor coming close to what it delivers for me!! I will admit that anything polished and shiny, per say, has no place in my cabinet or life, as I much prefer a satin or brushed finish on almost anything I use.

Thanks for the reply Mr. Head. I'll try the Ti. Everyone raves about the the face feel. The SS95 was my first modern razor. It was a game changer for sure. It, along with a few more recent purchases have relegated my vintage razors to the sidelines for the most part. This is an unsolicited answer from another user.

Timeless is a great jumping off point for moderns. Blackbirds are another. Both are readily available and the customer service fantastic.

As to your other question, yes, user error/inability seems to be the default position for apposing views.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

 

[GaryTha]

I think its very interesting that until I purchased a $200+ razor my shaves were mediocre at best, yet from the very 1st shave with my Ti Timeless the shaves were the best I'd ever had. I don't think there was anything wrong with my technique at that point as I'd not changed anything from the Fatboy, Wunderbar, DOC, 34C, post war, and a few others yet the Timeless shaved the way it did from the 1st shave!! I was seriously debating going back to a multi-blade cartridge razor until I bought the Timeless, I'm glad I didn't now... Yet someone is going to make a blanket statement that my technique isn't on point!! What is wrong with people??????????

Well it's about time someone chimed in
With a counter opinion to what appears
To be the Cheapskate Snobbery that is
Dominating this thread, although valid
A variety of opinions is preferable.