A defense of Charles Roberts

[joel]

I think a lot of people are missing a few point and Joel I think you need to think about something as well. The issue at hand is not if CAR has stood behind the product. Joel has mentioned that he offered to repair or replace the brush after it was returned. No where in his policies or terms and conditions does he offer and advance replacement policy. So I believe by offering to repair or replace the returned brush is standing behind the product. The issue is Joel is upset that this is the only option that has been presented and that he has to be inconvienieced.

If this is the case maybe it makes sense for the manufacturer to inspect the defect and determine if the fix is required of all the existing product. If this is the case it gives them the opportuntiy to fix yours and all other brushes. It also stops the possibilty of you getting another brush that will suffer the same fate.

Adam,
Over the phone, BEFORE I purchased the shaving brush, I asked Charles as to the quality/potential longevity, etc etc. He blatantly told me, that if there was a problem with the brush, he would REPLACE it. He specifically did not say "fix it" although that may be what he aimed to infer. The REAL issue here Adam, is that I was sent a new-defective shaving brush after having been promised over the phone, ALL of the prototype's "errors" had been fixed. This was NOT the case, and I was sent a defective brush. I had NO problem sending it back to him for REPLACEMENT, however why would/should I have to send it back on my dime, and my inconvienience when it was HE who sent me defective material? If you ordered a dell computer, and BRAND new it had a defective DVD drive - would you deem it reasonable, to have to send your computer back on your $, and your time -to have the drive fixed? You - being out a new computer for at the MINIMUM 1/2 a month, whilst having your $ tied up in a product you cannot use, and that is faulty?

What dell does - is offer CUSTOMER SERVICE - they send out a new drive on THEIR dime as it is THEIR mistake, then have a return shipment box that you can send the old DEFECTIVE product back.

What I think you FAIL to recognize, or pay attention to - is the fact that the man out and out called me a liar for me PERSONALLY preferring the prototype brush. WHAT IS YOUR EXCUSE FOR THIS ADAM? When should a retailer EVER call a HEAVY consumer a liar? It is the 80 - 20 rule.... 80% of sales will come from 20% of the customers, so keeping a high $, high spending customer happy is quintessential.

FLAT OUT.... would you accept McDonald's food and service at a 5-STAR, $100 a person resturant?

I was treated like crap when I received a bad product, and expected to put forth $ to simply "repair" the brush. The "repair" was offered as a favor Adam.

So guess what... yes you are correct, nowhere on his website does he offer replacement/repair for his shaving brushes.... so who in hell would want to buy a untried, untrued, extremly expensive product that obviously has quality control issues?

My guess... now that the gig is up? VERY FEW.

 

[Joe Lerch]

If the brush you have is having the issues you say it is, and no one is denying this, then maybe the issue is deeper than it appears. If this is the case maybe it makes sense for the manufacturer to inspect the defect and determine if the fix is required of all the existing product. If this is the case it gives them the opportuntiy to fix yours and all other brushes. It also stops the possibilty of you getting another brush that will suffer the same fate.

As a general principle, I would agree, but these problems are so blatant that minimal quality control would uncover them. In other words, with these kinds of defects, he should take the brush back and send it to the manufacturer. Or maybe it shouldn't have been released at all until such basic problems were taken care of.

I certainly would not buy the brush under those terms.

 

[Joe Lerch]

There's something I would like to see here before this thread ends, and I think it's important.

Everything you buy has some kind of warranty. When you buy goods, the laws of every state give it to you automatically. As a minimum, the product is supposed to be good for its intended purpose. I don't think that happened here.

Does anybody have any experience with manufacturer's and seller's warranties on brushes? Has anybody had any experiences they can share?

I seem to remember hearing some people comment very favorably on Berndt's handling of issues on the SRP brushes.

The practices of the industry would be interesting, not only to the present issue, but to all of us generally.

 

[Scotto]

I hate to keep this thread alive, but I'll throw in my experience with a bum brush. A while back, Charles of QED was selling what was then called SR-230's, a big brush that was different from the newer tortoise shell ones he now sells. The first batch of them had problems had hair shedding problems. After that, Charles thought the problem had been traced back to a manufacturer's error, and the issue was resolved.

Some time later, I ordered an SR-230. Lo and behold the thing started losing hairs. Maybe 5-10 a day, nothing as bad as Joel's brush. I called Charles, who gave me his sincerest apologies, and related his ire that the problem had reoccured. He immediately offered any brush he had in stock, even if it was a higher price, to ship out to me immediately. He also explained that normally he would have told me to toss the defective brush, but he politely requested that I ship it back to him at my leisure so that he could examine it. Needless to say, he also reimbursed my shipping. In a nutshell, I got a sincere apology and an immediate replacement (even if it cost him more $$), and he got a very happy customer who has sent a lot more orders his way. That is customer service, period.

To add an even more recent occurance, I just got a bottle of Musgo Real aftershave from Charles. This was the first time I had ever bought it, and it had a bit of a white residue on the bottom of the bottle, which made the aftershave slightly cloudy when shaken. Not knowing if this was normal, I sent Charles an e-mail asking. Within the same day, I got back an e-mail from Charles stating that he and his assistant had examined multiple bottles in their stock, noted the same thing as me, and he even splashed some on himself to see if the fragrance had been affected . His conclusion was the new formulation had some natural ingredients that were causing the residue, and he felt that there was no problem, but he was happy to take it back if I was not completely satisfied.

Enough said.

 

[HlSheppard]

Joe brings up a good point about implied warranties.

I also get warranties through the credit cards that I purchase with. Some off full replacement while other extend (double) the original Mfg. warranty.

Good thinkin'!

 

[Joe Lerch]

I hate to keep this thread alive, but I'll throw in my experience with a bum brush.

Thanks for sharing.

I think you're right; there would be no point in continuing this thread the way it was going. But some good can come from this thread if we create a record of how we, as customers, have been treated in similar circunstances.

Keep it coming guys.

 

[Joe Lerch]

There was an incident I witnessed on SRP where a Canadian member ordered fragrances from The Gentlemens Shop in the UK. Canada has laws about shipping dangerous substances, and the fragrances had alcohol and came under the law. Eventually, they disappeared or were confiscated. John, the owner, responded personally by e-mail and made good on the shipment.

Our favored vendors realize the value of maintaining good will with the boards. Maybe CAR can be more independent because he has a guaranteed stream of income from the method shavers. But shops like TGS, Classic Shaving, QED, and Em's place bend over backwards to make us happy.

 

[guenron]

There was an incident I witnessed on SRP where a Canadian member ordered fragrances from The Gentlemens Shop in the UK. Canada has laws about shipping dangerous substances, and the fragrances had alcohol and came under the law. Eventually, they disappeared or were confiscated. John, the owner, responded personally by e-mail and made good on the shipment.

Our favored vendors realize the value of maintaining good will with the boards. Maybe CAR can be more independent because he has a guaranteed stream of income from the method shavers. But shops like TGS, Classic Shaving, QED, and Em's place bend over backwards to make us happy.

While I won't dispute that Joe, but I really believe firms become our favored vendors because of excellent customer service such as that offered by (Robert) Johnston, Charles of QED, and Em. That is not inclusive of all the splendid vendors out there, but it certainly does exclude one who has proven to be less than acceptable.

 

[HlSheppard]

Don't forget Sue (St. Charles)!!

 

[Shermdog]

Charles of QED is easily the best I have ever ordered from. As a result, he is the only vendor I have used in the past year.

 

[Read]

So, you assume Joel must be withholding something because CAR sweet talks you on the phone?

Do you have any facts, or do you just enjoy stirring up controversy?

I think you and Ludwig need to get together and start a thread on how saintly CAR is and that anybody that says anything bad about him must be a liar.

In that the mods have not deleted me yet, I will respond. Joe, yes I do have facts. In fact I have used CAR, QED, ClassicShaving, Lee, Ems, et. al probably more than 95% of the folks here. I have had very good results with all of them including CAR; not because he 'sweet talked' me but because he came through with very good results. I have found him to be as honest a businessman as there is, maybe others haven't, but I can only speak from my experience. I don't enjoy stirring up controversy at all but I also don't 'drink the kool-aid' of many on this forum that simply parrot whatever certain members have to say. I will be willing to bet that I have bought more products from CAR's competitors than you have bought from CAR himself, so in that regard I have much more credibility in the discussion than you. I never said anything about Joel withholding anything. If you read my post with an open mind you would have seen that I agreed in that I would not be happy with the brush shown. I also stated that I knew (as well as I can know) that CAR would make good by me if he had sold the brush to me. In that he is apparently not willing to make it good for Joel speaks not only to CAR but to Joel. As I said previously, I make no judgements about that, I will leave it to others to decide. I do not frequent any shaving forums very often anymore due to time constraints. In looking through this one a couple of days ago I ran across this thread and decided to respond. I have been around this much longer than you or Joel, back when there was only one shaving forum. That does not make me any better than you, or any worse. But I do know most of the past history regarding forums, vendors, and members. Again, I don't enjoy stirring up controversy but my two cents are certainly worth as much as yours or anyone's. If you don't like hearing my opinion please get with the mods and ask them to delete my account. If they won't, then on occassion you, me, and others may have to put up with a dissenting opinion. That's life, get over it.

Read

 

[Joe Lerch]

yes I do have facts. In fact I have used CAR, QED, ...

These are not facts involving this situation. This is your past experience. It has little relevance to what happened here. We're not trying to compare Joel's reputation to CAR's. It's irrelevant, but that's all you're doing. And I read you very clearly, you're saying that there must be another side (what Joel isn't telling us?).

You just repeated what you saud a different way. It doesn't change what you said.

You're entitled to what ever opinion you like, but hen it becomes an unjustified attack against one of us you can expect to hear about it.

 

[Nick]

In that the mods have not deleted me yet, I will respond.

Convenient how that works eh?

but I can only speak from my experience.

Do you have experience receiving a faulty product? It's a lot easier to treat a customer like royalty when s/he doesn't have a problem.

I don't enjoy stirring up controversy at all but I also don't 'drink the kool-aid' of many on this forum that simply parrot whatever certain members have to say.

Alright, who was passing out punch and didn't invite me? Seriously Read, personal opinion is exactly that. There's no kool aid to drink, just opinion to give, and everyone has one (even you).

I will be willing to bet that I have bought more products from CAR's competitors than you have bought from CAR himself, so in that regard I have much more credibility in the discussion than you.

I'd be willing to bet that Joel has bought more products from CAR's competitors than yourself (despite the fact that over 2-3 years, I've called him a retard every time he's told me how much shaving supplies he's purchased, and I've called him a retard often). But you know what? That means NOTHING. Joe Lerch has consistenly provided two things to this forum: his honest opinion, and help when he saw fit. You?

Also, to jump ahead in your post a little bit, you said: "I have been around this much longer than you or Joel, back when there was only one shaving forum. That does not make me any better than you, or any worse."

I also stated that I knew (as well as I can know) that CAR would make good by me if he had sold the brush to me.

How? (Notice I bolded for the benefit of the readers here your caveat which allows you to sling your spurious accusations.)

In that he is apparently not willing to make it good for Joel speaks not only to CAR but to Joel. As I said previously, I make no judgements about that, I will leave it to others to decide.

But you do make a judgement. To say otherwise is disingenuous at best. I've made a judgement with respect to the veracity of your posts, but unlike you, I have no qualms with regards to that fact.

I do not frequent any shaving forums very often anymore due to time constraints. In looking through this one a couple of days ago I ran across this thread and decided to respond.

Yet another convenient happenstance?

But I do know most of the past history regarding forums, vendors, and members.

Again, since you think history plays so much of a role in all of this (and I don't necessarily disagree), history is, on a previous forum, you asked for your account to be deleted several times. Each time it was deleted, you proceeded to create a new account with the sole purpose of posting a few times, and then asking for your account to be deleted again. I make no judgements towards CAR or Joel's history, but your intents (historically) haven't been purely magnanimous either. I can't speak towards your modus operandi on the previous boards that you mention, but I certainly can presume.

Again, I don't enjoy stirring up controversy

Oh?

but my two cents are certainly worth as much as yours or anyone's.

No one has disputed this fact.

If you don't like hearing my opinion please get with the mods and ask them to delete my account. If they won't, then on occassion you, me, and others may have to put up with a dissenting opinion. That's life, get over it.

Why is the (voluntary and requested) deletion of your account necessary for you to stop posting? That action would not stop you from creating a new account and posting again whenever you feel like it. The only action that could somewhat prevent you from posting your two cents would be to ban you, and your IP address(es). You haven't requested that, and requesting that that action be taken (sort of like deleting your account) would only be necessary if you had no self control.

Finally (for this post), I raised your request to the mods. I hope I'm not speaking out of turn -the mods will reprimand me if I have- when I say that your request has been unanimously rejected.

This board has an unwritten rule: Man up and take responsibility for your own actions. If you don't want to be a member here, don't be. Your actions (like everyone else's, mods and all) are very transparent (another unwritten rule). You're presumably old enough that you have whiskers that need removing. Take responsibility for what you do, and don't be so childish as to think that others should be responsible for you.

-Nick

 

[Read]

Convenient how that works eh?Nick

Not really.

Do you have experience receiving a faulty product? It's a lot easier to treat a customer like royalty when s/he doesn't have a problem.Nick

Yes, I do.

Joe Lerch has consistenly provided two things to this forum: his honest opinion, and help when he saw fit. You?Nick

So, you base your view of Joe and me on experience? Funny, that's what I was doing in my original post defending CAR.

But you do make a judgement. To say otherwise is disingenuous at best. I've made a judgement with respect to the veracity of your posts, but unlike you, I have no qualms with regards to that fact.Nick

Yes, I did make a judgement in defense of CAR. I did it based on my experience with him and his business as well as based on some of the past history regarding Joel.

Why is the (voluntary and requested) deletion of your account necessary for you to stop posting? That action would not stop you from creating a new account and posting again whenever you feel like it. The only action that could somewhat prevent you from posting your two cents would be to ban you, and your IP address(es). You haven't requested that, and requesting that that action be taken (sort of like deleting your account) would only be necessary if you had no self control.

Finally (for this post), I raised your request to the mods. I hope I'm not speaking out of turn -the mods will reprimand me if I have- when I say that your request has been unanimously rejected.

This board has an unwritten rule: Man up and take responsibility for your own actions. If you don't want to be a member here, don't be. Your actions (like everyone else's, mods and all) are very transparent (another unwritten rule). You're presumably old enough that you have whiskers that need removing. Take responsibility for what you do, and don't be so childish as to think that others should be responsible for you.Nick

Nick, I am not sure why you chose to discuss my account status in the open forum; I certainly didn't bring it up in my original post. You also chose to bring it up again in this message which was based on my response to Joe. I initially told you that I wanted my account deleted because I did not have the time to remain active. That was denied. I requested it again after my previous posts were deleted. You said this did not or could not happen - I say it did. So, in that I did not have the time to devote anyway I did not want to be a 'member' of a forum where I was not wanted. That's it in a nutshell.

Read

 

[Nick]

Read,

It really boils down to this:

• Throughout virtually all of your posts, you mention how important history is, yet fail to see how your history of disingenuous behavior on multiple forums is relevant.
• Your first request for account deletion wasn't refused. You asked, I told you I didn't have the power to unilaterally do such, but could forward your request to the moderators. You saw you wouldn't be able to repeatedly create an account and then have it deleted like on a previous board, so you didn't take me up on my offer. Your second request however was refused. For reasons patently obvious to pretty much everyone but yourself.
• I did not say that deletion of your post(s) "did not or could not happen" I said it shouldn't have, and I asked you to tell me what posts were deleted, so I could get to the bottom of it. You never responded to that request.

Guess what Read, you still could be a 'wanted' member of this forum if you just decided to contribute in a positive fashion. As it is now, your contribution has consisted of abnormal behavior which you've exhibited elsewhere, and making posts impugning character. That's it.

You might be able to get away with this behavior on other forums. When you try it on this one, you'll be called out, pure and simple. So you have three choices: A. Man up, live and learn, get past this, and make a positive contribution here. B. Continue to play the victim "Woe is me, they won't delete my account, so I am forced against my will by some unnatural and unholy power to continue posting here." or C. Man up and stop coming here by your own volition.

The choice is and always has been yours,

-Nick

 

[Read]

Read,

It really boils down to this:

• Throughout virtually all of your posts, you mention how important history is, yet fail to see how your history of disingenuous behavior on multiple forums is relevant.
• Your first request for account deletion wasn't refused. You asked, I told you I didn't have the power to unilaterally do such, but could forward your request to the moderators. You saw you wouldn't be able to repeatedly create an account and then have it deleted like on a previous board, so you didn't take me up on my offer. Your second request however was refused. For reasons patently obvious to pretty much everyone but yourself.
• I did not say that deletion of your post(s) "did not or could not happen" I said it shouldn't have, and I asked you to tell me what posts were deleted, so I could get to the bottom of it. You never responded to that request.

Guess what Read, you still could be a 'wanted' member of this forum if you just decided to contribute in a positive fashion. As it is now, your contribution has consisted of abnormal behavior which you've exhibited elsewhere, and making posts impugning character. That's it.

You might be able to get away with this behavior on other forums. When you try it on this one, you'll be called out, pure and simple. So you have three choices: A. Man up, live and learn, get past this, and make a positive contribution here. B. Continue to play the victim "Woe is me, they won't delete my account, so I am forced against my will by some unnatural and unholy power to continue posting here." or C. Man up and stop coming here by your own volition.

The choice is and always has been yours,

-Nick

Nick,
No need to be so dramatic. I did indeed request cancellation of membership (along with several other old time members) twice on a previous forum. I have requested it here in the manner you have indicated. This is the only board or forum that I have ever been to that does not allow a member to 'unjoin'. I do find that odd. As far as my behaviour, please don't assume to tell me how I should behave. I have not said, nor implied anything untrue about anyone associated with this forum. Again, I simply stated my belief regarding a particular vendor based on experience. I also stated my belief was based on past behaviour of the individual involved. You can think what you want about me; I will always "man up" as you say and take responsibility for my words and actions. My record speaks for itself. I have never had any of my posts on any forum deleted by moderators. I have never been banned from any forum. I have never been 'banned' by any vendor. When the same can be said regarding the parties involved in this discussion then you can assume to educate me on behaviour.

Read

 

[Nick]

+1

Ooh, that's not a +1 in agreement, that's just increasing the "I don't have time to post here, and sorely wish my account was deleted, but I'll post anyway" counter.

-Nick

P.S. "My record speaks for itself. I have never had any of my posts on any forum deleted by moderators." Hmmm.... This isn't what you were claiming earlier.....

 

[guenron]

Nick,
No need to be so dramatic. I did indeed request cancellation of membership (along with several other old time members) twice on a previous forum. I have requested it here in the manner you have indicated. This is the only board or forum that I have ever been to that does not allow a member to 'unjoin'. I do find that odd. As far as my behaviour, please don't assume to tell me how I should behave. I have not said, nor implied anything untrue about anyone associated with this forum. Again, I simply stated my belief regarding a particular vendor based on experience. I also stated my belief was based on past behaviour of the individual involved. You can think what you want about me; I will always "man up" as you say and take responsibility for my words and actions. My record speaks for itself. I have never had any of my posts on any forum deleted by moderators. I have never been banned from any forum. I have never been 'banned' by any vendor. When the same can be said regarding the parties involved in this discussion then you can assume to educate me on behaviour.

Read

BWAHAHAHA!

 

[Austin]

Gents, this is getting tiresome. I have never had a problem with CAR. I visit his shop at least every other month to purchase blades and sometimes shave cream.

If Read wants his membership cancelled than lets cancel it and move on.

 

[Read]

BWAHAHAHA!

The most intelligent thing you have said in quite a while.

Read