3k - 8k stone

[Shaun asleep]

I tried to take a pic through the jewelers loupe, 30x magnified.

Does this tell you something?
I notice the scuff/hone marks and or edge is much wider than on my other razors. This Kure nai is thicker in the center than heel and toe, which complicates honing for me.

I'm not sure if I will put alot more effort I to this one. Any feedback on the Pics would be appreciate though.

Thats a pic after last full sequence, before I lapped the stones flat and finished on the cnat.

I don't think my current expectations are to hone a sharp razor out of clay. If I can maintain my sharp ones, I'll be plenty happy.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Not a bad bevel photo, actually. If you load it in a Photo Editor and enlarge you can see a lot of detail.

Stop honing on the Chinese stone, it is not finer than an 8k.

You have deep bevel setting stria that was not removed ending at the edge in a microchip, and uneven edge, (not straight) and lots of random, looks like circular stria on the bevel.

First fully set the bevel, look straight down on the edge, if you see shiny reflections, the bevel is not fully set.

Then polish with a synthetic progression ending in 8k.

You need to find out if your 8k is a finisher, otherwise you are spinning your wheels.



This is what an 8k bevel should look like. Note the straightness of the edge and uniform stria pattern on the bevel. Can you make an 8k bevel look like this?

8K

 

[Shaun asleep]

You have deep bevel setting stria that was not removed ending at the edge in a microchip, and uneven edge, (not straight) and lots of random, looks like circular stria on the bevel.

Cheers for that, it's not easy to interpet. I took a look at the thread you talked about, but my picture looks different. What you are saying is the bevel was possibly set, but the cnat killed the edge.


I have ordered a vintage barber hone and a vintage translucent Arkensas. I realise barber hones can be hit or miss,thx to some pm sessions with slice of life, but the seller (1 stone) basically told me it is a tried and tested hone, capable of delivering near 10k edges.

The Ark, he warned is slow cutting, but in excellent condition. So more than likely both better than the cnat.

 

[Shaun asleep]

Ok, Who am I kidding. I'm going at it again with just the synths, for giggles. Will trumy to post Pics after every stone.

 

[Shaun asleep]

Here we go....

Started off with the Kure Nai, but I noticed the blade wasnt flat. As seen on this photograph. Since the belly is also bigger than toe and heel, I put it aside. There is no way I can get this thing shaving with my lack of xp.

https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/media/img_20230801_202918-jpg.72294/full

On to my german hollow ground razor. Perfectly flat and straight, also sharp. Blunted the edge on glass and reset until it no longer shaved armhair.

Post bevel set:



Cuts armhair again, so I proceeded to 3k.
Post 3k edge after about 15 laps:



Post 6k edge after about 30 laps:



Post 8k edge after about 50( or 60) laps:

 

[Empire straights]

Ok, Who am I kidding. I'm going at it again with just the synths, for giggles. Will trumy to post Pics after every stone.

If you finish the surface to 600 and don't burnish it, it'll speed it up a lot.

 

[Shaun asleep]

If you finish the surface to 600 and don't burnish it, it'll speed it up a lot.

I don't understand. Do you mean lapping the stones? I lapped them with 250 sandpaper. Was that too coarse?

Any thoughts on the edge Pics?

 

[Empire straights]

I don't understand. Do you mean lapping the stones? I lapped them with 250 sandpaper. Was that too coarse?

Any thoughts on the edge Pics?

Yeah 250 is probably going to chew up the edge of your razor, id go up to 400 at minimum, 600 is best imo. Some guys go up to 1-2k then burnish it.

 

[kayvee]

@Shaun asleep I'm a learner myself, recently honed my third razor from start to finish. I don't have much honing advice, but I'll offer some learning advice.

Listen to everyone, read everything - not once or twice, but 3, 4, 5 times (maybe I'm slower than most)... Try to understand and relate to what you see physically. While I understood quickly what the stria meant to the edge, it took me a while to understand which stria line came from which grit. You'll have your own blind spots which only you can be aware - just be sure to look for them.

Stick to one blade and one set of hones. Like you, I kept jumping to different stones thinking the stones would solve everything. Fortunately, you're self aware... Once you learn to hone on one set of blades, then move on to other stones.

You'll find all kinds of blades out there. If you buy one, you'll need to learn to maintain (and sometimes hone it). These blades may have warps, may have smiles, frowns, heel hooks, whatever... don't switch blades just as you don't switch hones. Learn with one - consistently. Pick one that's a beater and that you don't mind if you grind down to the spine. Use it to learn and hone completely, fully.

Be persistent, as I see you to be. You got this!!

 

[Empire straights]

@Shaun asleep I'm a learner myself, recently honed my third razor from start to finish. I don't have much honing advice, but I'll offer some learning advice.

Listen to everyone, read everything - not once or twice, but 3, 4, 5 times (maybe I'm slower than most)... Try to understand and relate to what you see physically. While I understood quickly what the stria meant to the edge, it took me a while to understand which stria line came from which grit. You'll have your own blind spots which only you can be aware - just be sure to look for them.

Stick to one blade and one set of hones. Like you, I kept jumping to different stones thinking the stones would solve everything. Fortunately, you're self aware... Once you learn to hone on one set of blades, then move on to other stones.

You'll find all kinds of blades out there. If you buy one, you'll need to learn to maintain (and sometimes hone it). These blades may have warps, may have smiles, frowns, heel hooks, whatever... don't switch blades just as you don't switch hones. Learn with one - consistently. Pick one that's a beater and that you don't mind if you grind down to the spine. Use it to learn and hone completely, fully.

Be persistent, as I see you to be. You got this!!

This is fantastic advice. Id only add, pay very close attention to the feedback in the stone, I never used magnification when learning to hone razors, I do it by feel on the stone. As far as razors you don't care about spine wear.. hone it until it right, I have a very old razor I probably wore to much spine off off but it shaves great. I had so much trouble getting razor to shave. Eventually I just put it on a washita and honed until it felt like butter. It's good now.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

“What you are saying is the bevel was possibly set, but the cnat killed the edge”.

So, 2 different issues. From the look of the edge the bevel was never fully set, meeting fully. And your synthetic stones are in question. The 1/3 not so much if you have a good 8k. But is you 8k capable of making a shaving edge and if needed pick up the slack from the 3k and polish the bevel and make a shaving edge?

Kayvee makes some good points. The “Try to understand and relate to what you see physically. While I understood quickly what the stria meant to the edge, it took me a while to understand which stria line came from which grit”.

The 3k should remove ALL the 1k stria. After the 3k or (which ever stone you use after the 1k to polish), should remove all the 1k stria. There should not be any confusion, there should only be 3k stria on the bevel after the 3k. The next stone should remove all the 3k stria. If you end with an 8k you should only have 8k stria on the bevel.

“Stick to one blade and one set of hones. Like you, I kept jumping to different stones thinking the stones would solve everything. Fortunately, you're self aware... Once you learn to hone on one set of blades, then move on to other stones.”

Yes, yes and yes, one razor, one set of synthetic stones at a time. Adding more natural stones to the mix will not improve your honing until you can 1. Fully set a bevel and 2. Determine if your 8k can make a shaving edge.

A razor must have a shave ready edge before you take it to a hard Ark to have any benefit, and first you must lap the Ark flat on 60 grit loose Silicone carbide, and once flat, you can finish on 600 grit.

If you sand an Ark with 600 wet and dry without lapping flat, it is unlikely you will get a shaving edge. Barber hones are 6k at best, they will not produce a shaving edge for you. In qualified hands on could possibly squeak out a shaving edge, a new honer not likely.

You need to slow down and focus on one razor and 3 stone, 1/3& 8k and learn to hone that one razor. Then once successful, hone another razor using the same technique and get repeatable results.

If you continue to jump around from razor and stone, you will never learn if your stones are capable of honing a razor and never learn to hone a razor with a technique that is repeatable.

If you want to buy a new stone, buy a Naniwia, Snow White or Fuji 8k or a 12k Super Stone. Those 3 stones are bullet proof finishers, with a huge range, capable of setting a bevel.

You latest photos are not focused on the bevel and capable of clear enlargement in a photo editor.

 

[Shaun asleep]

The reason I switched to another razor is because I was using a cheap Chinese razor, with an unevenly grounded edge.
It's difficult enough as a new guy, I don't need the extra challenge. I have this perfect razor, that was gifted to me with the intend of learning to hone.

I very much appreciate the continued support and effort you guys are putting into reading all this. I'm sorry I'm not a quick learner.

I went through the entire cycle again, looking closeley at the edge with my 30x magnifier.
Tried taking pictures, but that's about as difficult as the entire honing process itself.

I started from 1k again, because when I tried it this morning, the save was tuggy.

Anyhow, I paid attention to watching the hone-pattern change after every stone.
When I made it upto 8k this thing was the sharpest that I had ever gotten a straight razor.
So I looked at the pattern and noticed it wasn't as smooth or mirror like as the picture @H Brad Boonshaft shared.
Which makes me wonder if the synts are poorly rated.

Does this matter? I'm not sure, it was sharp.
I was curious though, to see if the Cnat would manage to polish up the edge.
From what I saw through the magnifier, I believe it did.

And this razor's cutting effortlessly through armhair.
Took a picture, it still looks pretty rough compared to Brad's picture or to my recently aqcuired Rasoir Sabre razor.
But it DOES look better than on the 8k synthetic.

Any wagers on what the Cnat could actually be rated at when looking at my pictures?

I stropped it dry on denim and leather, then dry-shaved my cheeks with this thing and it IS removing stubble.
It didn't even feel tuggy, but it might be tomorrow, when the hair's longer.

I'm not sure what to think. I FEEL like I did a good job, it's sharp and cutting.

Any thoughts?

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

So, first let’s put the Chinese stone to rest. Back in the day when those stones first became popular many EXPERIENCED honers tested them, many of them. Few were able of producing a quality edge, and those stone came from a well-known tool vendor, not some unknown eBay vendor.

Most of those stones had impurities and grit that made them unsuitable for honing razors. All hard stones like Arks and Chinese stones are stone face finish dependent.

It is a lot of work to flatten a Chinese stone properly, and then finish to a known finish. You cannot finish a stone without it being lapped flat and smooth first.

Add to all that, many that know, say the “new stones” are not the same quality as the old stones. So, chances of finding a quality New Chinese stone are slim. I have seen these stones claimed to be as high as 20k and really at best 6k with inclusions.

So, relegate the stone to sharpening knives.

You are spinning your wheels with that stone, and if it “polished” the 8k, then your 8k is not 8k or capable of producing a quality 8k finish.

You are handicapping your chances of learning to hone with the quality of stones you currently have.

By the way, you are not the first to go down this long, frustrating road, only to give up on honing.

 

[Shaun asleep]

I took a gamble on the following items,
Vintage Diamond King barber hone, vintage hard (translucent) Ark and a hybrid rouge du salm.

The German razor was reset to bevel, then shrugged against these 3 hones and... Taataaa sharp as a pencil.

I can even skin tomatoes or make tomato carpacio with this thing.

Took the Bismarck to the Ark as well, so I can slowely give it an Ark edge as suggested by @SliceOfLife .

The Bismarck was sharp already.... And it's still sharp. So I guess I didn't mess it up.

Despite the questionable grit of the bhone appears to fit in nicely between the two other ones.

The rouge du salm is real joy to use btw, red, muddy and soft. Cuts fast.

The Chinese synths, I fear are probably only useful for bevel setting. At least in my hands.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Nice Ark slip, it is large enough to finish a razor. The finish can be altered by how it is lapped, and because of the size is not that much work.

How is the shave?

 

[Shaun asleep]

I'll try tomorrow!

 

[Shaun asleep]

I set my freshly sellf-honed razor ready for this mornings shave. The Bismarck submerged in it's scales nearby, in case I needed it. I didn't! The shave was great, the edge wasnt too harsh, it felt perfect.

I'm sure it can be made better and some of this is just because I feel I have succeeded. But it does what needs doing. I ended my shave with a huge smile on my face. I do still cheat a bit on my chin area to clean off some stubble I wasnt able to reach, but thats because my technique's not on point yet.

Thanks to everyone for their help!
I have learn that not all Chinese things are what they claim to be. Which surprised me, because they have proven to be very well at making de razors.

I tossed the Kure Nai aside. Gave it another try yesterday, but the warp made it very hard to hone and I can't be bothered.

I check the edge with a magnifier to confirmed bevel is set and watch closely to remove all striae of the previous stone when I have finished using the other stone.

I bought a Gustave lalune strop, which is waaahaaaaay better than the Chinese one I got with the Kure Nai.

Thanks to all who helped in this thread and also everyone who took the time to assist me in private messages!