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- #21
Soaking...
3k - 8k stone
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- #22
It actually sounded like a straight razor through my honing session. Nice "ring" to it, hadn't gotten that before out of this piece of steel. Also cutting through cherry tomatoes. But... Still not cutting hair, at all. No tree topping arm hair, but I progressed. I was told dont bother if it doesn't cut hair, but it took forever to get it slicing through that tomato coming from 800 to 1k. Figured I'd try to go through the entire set and see if it would cut stubble when shaving. It did not.
It took me an 1h20 minutes to work my way up to the 12k adaee. No one can tell me I haven't done enough laps.
The question remains. Is it the stones, the razor or me? Possibly all three.
I'm dissappointed.
Could say some higher rated synth stones felt coarser than lower rated stones. But given my cluelessness, I could be wrong.
I'm letting this rest for a while.
Maybe if I get over my dissapointment I could try doing a video so all can mock me, pointing out my mistakes.
It took me an 1h20 minutes to work my way up to the 12k adaee. No one can tell me I haven't done enough laps.
The question remains. Is it the stones, the razor or me? Possibly all three.
I'm dissappointed.
Could say some higher rated synth stones felt coarser than lower rated stones. But given my cluelessness, I could be wrong.
I'm letting this rest for a while.
Maybe if I get over my dissapointment I could try doing a video so all can mock me, pointing out my mistakes.
I am located in Germany, if you want I can put a shaving edge on your razors to give you a benchmark
Last edited:
It actually sounded like a straight razor through my honing session. Nice "ring" to it, hadn't gotten that before out of this piece of steel. Also cutting through cherry tomatoes. But... Still not cutting hair, at all. No tree topping arm hair, but I progressed. I was told dont bother if it doesn't cut hair, but it took forever to get it slicing through that tomato coming from 800 to 1k. Figured I'd try to go through the entire set and see if it would cut stubble when shaving. It did not.
It took me an 1h20 minutes to work my way up to the 12k adaee. No one can tell me I haven't done enough laps.
The question remains. Is it the stones, the razor or me? Possibly all three.
I'm dissappointed.
Could say some higher rated synth stones felt coarser than lower rated stones. But given my cluelessness, I could be wrong.
I'm letting this rest for a while.
Maybe if I get over my dissapointment I could try doing a video so all can mock me, pointing out my mistakes.
I’d recommend looking up one of the online triangle calculators and measure the angle of your bevel.
Some razor’s steel will not support their native bevel angle being too acute. These need tape on the spine to get the angle back into an appropriate degree.
Both of my 4/8ths seem to fall in this category. I wonder if all 4/8ths need tape to hone..
“It took me an 1h20 minutes to work my way up to the 12k adaee. No one can tell me I haven't done enough laps.
The question remains. Is it the stones, the razor or me? Possibly all three.”
Yup, completely normal. Probably not the razor, post a photo for better advice. You have to figure out if the 8k can produce a shaving edge. The Chinese “not 12k stone”, is not helping you at this point.
What magnification are you using?
Ensure that your new stones are flat and smooth, mark and remove a pencil grit 4-5 times until you can remove a new grid fully in less than 10 laps. Then bevel or round the edges. Use a Diamond Plate or 220 grit Wet and Dry to lap.
At each stone in the progression, look at the edge with magnification. If you see shiny reflections, the bevels are not meeting. Once you get them to meet fully you must ensure you do damage the edge with the rest of the progression.
Try shaving off the 8k stone. If the stone is well prepped and you cannot shave off it, it is the stone.
You might send the razor and stone to an experienced honer for testing. It is not about doing enough laps, doing more of the same and expecting a different result…
Find out where the problem is. Eliminate the variables…
The question remains. Is it the stones, the razor or me? Possibly all three.”
Yup, completely normal. Probably not the razor, post a photo for better advice. You have to figure out if the 8k can produce a shaving edge. The Chinese “not 12k stone”, is not helping you at this point.
What magnification are you using?
Ensure that your new stones are flat and smooth, mark and remove a pencil grit 4-5 times until you can remove a new grid fully in less than 10 laps. Then bevel or round the edges. Use a Diamond Plate or 220 grit Wet and Dry to lap.
At each stone in the progression, look at the edge with magnification. If you see shiny reflections, the bevels are not meeting. Once you get them to meet fully you must ensure you do damage the edge with the rest of the progression.
Try shaving off the 8k stone. If the stone is well prepped and you cannot shave off it, it is the stone.
You might send the razor and stone to an experienced honer for testing. It is not about doing enough laps, doing more of the same and expecting a different result…
Find out where the problem is. Eliminate the variables…
It’s not so much the size of the razor but the ratio of the thickness of the spine to the length of the spine to the bevel. This determines the angle of the bevel. Razors with a lot of spine wear can (not always) make the bevel angle more acute (smaller) and become an angle that is less than what that steel is able to support.
One of the benefits of using tape is that it prevents spine wear and the narrowing of the bevel angle.
I have a 7/8 Parker with a native angle just over 21 deg which is on the high side but it shaves great. IMHO there is a decent buffer zone going too high. The greater concern is having too low of an angle.
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- #28
Looks like I am making alot of mistakes.
I went synthetic, because I figured it would be the easy route. Defined grit sizes, good sized stones. They were new, so I didn't lap them. They felt smooth to touch, but I'm started to realise thats not enough. Will try flattening the stones with sandpaper.
I'm not using any magnification to check on the bevel.
When you ask for pictures, do you mean of the razors edge or the stones?
Your lack of faith in the cnat is starting to worry me. This stone hasnt been lapped either. It's pretty hard, but I'll try to sand it down as well.
Will also try to calculate the bevel angle, using online tools.
I've seen an interesting combo stone of a La Lune and hybrid coti on 1stone. But given my lack of succes I'm not sure splashing out money would be the solution.
First (if I find some free time) I will try to lap the synth stones and finish try a finish on the 8k. We'll see where that will take me.
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- #29
Cant seem to calculate the bevel angle.
The spine is 0,6 cm wide, cutting side one is 2 cm, cutting side 2 seems 2.1 cm, but I am measuring with a ruler, so not the best tools for the job.
Pics of the edge not sure if close enough.
The spine is 0,6 cm wide, cutting side one is 2 cm, cutting side 2 seems 2.1 cm, but I am measuring with a ruler, so not the best tools for the job.
Pics of the edge not sure if close enough.
- Thread starter
- #30
+1
My new TI and me had a lot of troubles.
arc sin (0,6/2) = 17.5°, should be fine.
As a beginner I'ld recommend to sharpen step by step. First thing is to check wether both bevels can be sharpened from heel to toe, without pressure. Check with marker. If something is off, the geometry needs correction. Learning to sharpen with the geometry off is not simple.
With a good training knife I'ld start over with learning the basic strokes. First checking for nice and even stroke, I am a little heavy handed. Then maybe pronouncing the heel, or the toe. Just getting the feel. And of course we must never ever grind on the stabilizer and tang.
From there it should be manageable to proceed to set the bevel. Once the bevel is set you won.
Good luck!
Yes, you must lap new stones flat and smooth. You do not need to obsess about lapping your stone “dead flat”, but they must have a completely smooth stone face.
If you draw a pencil grid on a stone face you will see any high and low spots as you lap. As the stone wears the low spots, (rough spots) will come in contact with your honed bevel and edge and cause bevel and edge damage if the stone is not lapped smooth first.
So, when stones are new, lap them until all the pencil grid is removed, a sheet of 220 spray glued to a granite or glass tile is all you need. A cheap $30 diamond plate will make your life easier, lap under running water to clear the swarf. You will need to lap swarf off the stones and refresh the stone face each time to maintain the stone, before you hone. This is where a diamond plate pays dividends.
Remove a marked pencil grid 3 or 4 times to ensure that the stone is lapped flat, and that the slurry just washed off the pencil grid. A stone is flat and smooth when you can remove a new pencil grid in less than 10 laps.
Then lap a chamfer or round the edges of the stone. If you drag the bevel across a sharp or rough corner, you can micro damage the bevel and edge, ruining all your work.
You need magnification, I like the $15 Carson MicroBrite 60-100x with LED light.
Look straight down on the edge, if you see shiny reflections on the edge, that is where the bevels are not meeting, keep honing on the 1k until the bevels are meeting fully from heel to toe.
Then move up in grit and remove all the deep 1k stria with the next stone. Check the edge, looking straight down on the edge, if you see shiny reflections, you messed up the bevel and edge and must get them back to meeting before proceeding to the next stone.
As I said earlier the quality of the 1k and mid grit stones does not matter, they just get the bevels flat and meeting, the next stone just removes the deep stria, but at some point, you must refine the edge to make a smooth, keen shaving edge. An edge will not get really straight until 8k.
Most quality8k stones are more than capable of doing this, but an inexpensive 8K is questionable. You should be able to shave very well off an 8k edge.
All of the above goes for natural stones, even more so, because hard stone like the Chinese, is stone face, finish dependent. How the stone is finished will determine the finish it can deliver. Add to that the quality, purity of the stone has been in question by many honers since then became popular 15-20 years ago. Some have been able to get shaving edges from them, but most agree it provides a 6k finish at best. There is a lot of history and experimentation with these stones by many experienced honers, with the same result and advice. An experienced honer could maybe squeak out a shaving edge, but why, there are way better options. A new honer with an un-prepared stone, is not going to happen.
If the goal of honing is to eliminate variables, the Chinese stone and the 8k are huge variables.
If you are honing without magnification, you are honing blind. Not only do you need to see what is happening on the bevel and edge, you need to understand what it is you see through magnification. There are many post showing micrographs of what you should see through a scope or loupe and what they mean.
Google (My Second Try at Honing) for good, clear micrographs and detailed instruction by a new honer honing an eBay beater. If you make your bevels and edges look like his, you should get a shaving edge.
Your razor also needs heel correction, moving the heel corner towards the toe, you are honing on the tang. Doing so is keeping the heel half of the razor off the stone, so you add more pressure and are grinding the heel, (heel bevel is wider than the toe).
Tape the spine with a single layer of electrical tape until you have mastered honing. Doing excessive laps on low grit stone will grind the spine needlessly and cause more issues. With a shoulder-less razor you also need to be aware of using too much pressure flexing the blade and lifting the edge off the stone.
Do not worry about the bevel angle now, that is not your issue. Once you learn to hone the razor, then if you have edge retention issues, you can look at the bevel angle. If you continue needlessly grind the spine the bevel angle will not matter.
First master honing then decide, if you want to use tape.
If you draw a pencil grid on a stone face you will see any high and low spots as you lap. As the stone wears the low spots, (rough spots) will come in contact with your honed bevel and edge and cause bevel and edge damage if the stone is not lapped smooth first.
So, when stones are new, lap them until all the pencil grid is removed, a sheet of 220 spray glued to a granite or glass tile is all you need. A cheap $30 diamond plate will make your life easier, lap under running water to clear the swarf. You will need to lap swarf off the stones and refresh the stone face each time to maintain the stone, before you hone. This is where a diamond plate pays dividends.
Remove a marked pencil grid 3 or 4 times to ensure that the stone is lapped flat, and that the slurry just washed off the pencil grid. A stone is flat and smooth when you can remove a new pencil grid in less than 10 laps.
Then lap a chamfer or round the edges of the stone. If you drag the bevel across a sharp or rough corner, you can micro damage the bevel and edge, ruining all your work.
You need magnification, I like the $15 Carson MicroBrite 60-100x with LED light.
Look straight down on the edge, if you see shiny reflections on the edge, that is where the bevels are not meeting, keep honing on the 1k until the bevels are meeting fully from heel to toe.
Then move up in grit and remove all the deep 1k stria with the next stone. Check the edge, looking straight down on the edge, if you see shiny reflections, you messed up the bevel and edge and must get them back to meeting before proceeding to the next stone.
As I said earlier the quality of the 1k and mid grit stones does not matter, they just get the bevels flat and meeting, the next stone just removes the deep stria, but at some point, you must refine the edge to make a smooth, keen shaving edge. An edge will not get really straight until 8k.
Most quality8k stones are more than capable of doing this, but an inexpensive 8K is questionable. You should be able to shave very well off an 8k edge.
All of the above goes for natural stones, even more so, because hard stone like the Chinese, is stone face, finish dependent. How the stone is finished will determine the finish it can deliver. Add to that the quality, purity of the stone has been in question by many honers since then became popular 15-20 years ago. Some have been able to get shaving edges from them, but most agree it provides a 6k finish at best. There is a lot of history and experimentation with these stones by many experienced honers, with the same result and advice. An experienced honer could maybe squeak out a shaving edge, but why, there are way better options. A new honer with an un-prepared stone, is not going to happen.
If the goal of honing is to eliminate variables, the Chinese stone and the 8k are huge variables.
If you are honing without magnification, you are honing blind. Not only do you need to see what is happening on the bevel and edge, you need to understand what it is you see through magnification. There are many post showing micrographs of what you should see through a scope or loupe and what they mean.
Google (My Second Try at Honing) for good, clear micrographs and detailed instruction by a new honer honing an eBay beater. If you make your bevels and edges look like his, you should get a shaving edge.
Your razor also needs heel correction, moving the heel corner towards the toe, you are honing on the tang. Doing so is keeping the heel half of the razor off the stone, so you add more pressure and are grinding the heel, (heel bevel is wider than the toe).
Tape the spine with a single layer of electrical tape until you have mastered honing. Doing excessive laps on low grit stone will grind the spine needlessly and cause more issues. With a shoulder-less razor you also need to be aware of using too much pressure flexing the blade and lifting the edge off the stone.
Do not worry about the bevel angle now, that is not your issue. Once you learn to hone the razor, then if you have edge retention issues, you can look at the bevel angle. If you continue needlessly grind the spine the bevel angle will not matter.
First master honing then decide, if you want to use tape.
I agree, but I think the Aliexpress-special razor may be a variable here too. It would be instructive to get a cheap vintage off ebay and compare results.
It would also be interesting to compare the 8k to something with a known grit like a lapping film, but without magnification that's pointless too.
So true but, the razor does appear to be evenly ground, even if it is rough. I have honed a few similar razors in the past, don’t recall the brands and they can take an edge. The scales are clunky and make stropping difficult.
You do need to watch the pressure on those shoulder less, you can easily lift the edge off the stone.
Rounding that heel will help a new honer keep off the tang.
Here are a couple photos of what that honer was able to accomplish in the Second Try at honing.
eBay beater
Finished bevel and edge.
You do need to watch the pressure on those shoulder less, you can easily lift the edge off the stone.
Rounding that heel will help a new honer keep off the tang.
Here are a couple photos of what that honer was able to accomplish in the Second Try at honing.
eBay beater
Finished bevel and edge.
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- #35
Which is the lapping stone, the pink one?
Most of those inexpensive “lapping” stones are very soft and make a mess. You would be much better off with a 12 x3 in glass tile with 220 wet & dry spray glued to it or a $30 3-400 diamond lapping plate.
A lapping plate needs to be larger or as large as the stone or you will convex the stone.
Most of those inexpensive “lapping” stones are very soft and make a mess. You would be much better off with a 12 x3 in glass tile with 220 wet & dry spray glued to it or a $30 3-400 diamond lapping plate.
A lapping plate needs to be larger or as large as the stone or you will convex the stone.
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- #37
The green stone is the flattening stone. It's slightly wider than the sharpening stones, but obviously alot less long.
I'll have a look at the diamond flattening stone. The microscope's sitting in my amazon basket waiting for some other stuff to add for free shipping.
Thanks for the tips, will report back when the magic has happened.
It is just a dressing stone, which is typically used to clean the stone and to reactivate the surface.The green stone is the flattening stone. It's slightly wider than the sharpening stones, but obviously alot less long.
I'll have a look at the diamond flattening stone. The microscope's sitting in my amazon basket waiting for some other stuff to add for free shipping.
Thanks for the tips, will report back when the magic has happened.
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- #39
Lapped them with 150 sandpaper on a tile. Judging by the wear of the pencil stripes, the 1k and 8k especially werent as flat as I thought they were.
Will hold off on use until I have a magnifier.
Again, thanks for taking the time to walk me through this.
Will hold off on use until I have a magnifier.
Again, thanks for taking the time to walk me through this.
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- #40
I have a nice vintage German ground razor that was kindly sent to me by another forum member (@*stefan*) to practice my honing. He gave it a nice edge, which is why I have been focussing on honing the Kure Nai instead. But I'll dull it and try to hone that one.
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