3k - 8k stone

[Shaun asleep]

Instead of cloudying up the other thread, I'd figure I would post it here.

Since I seem to be having issues getting my Chinese bought ("Japanese made") Kure Nai straight up to shaving bliss I'm wondering if I'm missing any stones.

I currently use a 1k YJSHARP synthetic, followed by a 6k YJSHARP synthetic to go up to a 12k CNAT.
The CNAT isn't the issue, I've used it to freshen up my Bismarck which is doing what it's supposed to be doing.

Some of you suggested that:
a) either my YJSHARP synths are sub-par, I know some members have this exact offer in their collection as they are sold as a bundle from ADAEE.
b) I am lacking a 3k and 8k stone in my sequence

Been looking at some Chinese options, where I can get a 3k-8k combination stone in corundum for about 11 euros.
This would be IDEAL if the quality of the stones isnt what's causing my problem.

Alternatives I have found, that match my budget would be either a Boker corundum stone
or a Henckels Zwilling corundum stone.

I suspect both Boker & Henckels to be identical. Since the information of the Boker states that it is an Asian corundum stone I am seriously wondering if it's not actually the same as the YJSHARP offering, that I could get alot cheaper.

Any thoughts on that?

I do have BBW windowbanks and stairs. I could use them, but suspect the wife would complain about scratches AND that would leave me an 8k stone short.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Touching up a finished razor and finishing a razor are very different tasks.

I have no experience with the 6k YJSharp... but it's entirely possible that a CNAT would struggle to finish a razor coming off of one. It's also entirely possible the 6k it wouldn't work great on a razor coming off the 1k YJSharp and you may want a middle hone. Really specific to the hones, how you hone, what you hone, etc. Most razor users don't do a 1k to 6k jump on their hones, 1k/6k are popular as a knife combo and even then not a lot of people use em for that. I run DMT's and do a 1200 to 8000 (mesh) jump in seconds; but your 6k is probably JIS, so finer than an 8k mesh.

In the shave...

Does the edge feel like it's toothy? Does it cut the hairs but feel like it's grabbing them and starting to rip them out before it finally cuts?

That indicates you're not doing enough midrange.

Does it not cut at all?

That means you're not beveled.

Does it cut, but inconsistently and feel like a just generally bad shave? A little bit not cutting, a little bit tugging, a little bit chewing up your face, mostly the shave isn't close.

That means the CNAT isn't finishing it coming off the 6k.


I will say this much. Guys used the CNAT coming off Norton 8k's plenty... which is most likely a coarser stone than your 6k due to the aforementioned difference in ratings. So with enough work on the CNAT, you SHOULD eventually get it maxxed out off your 6k... but it may take more work than you want to put in.

1k to 6k JIS jump similarly is larger than typical... but usually is completely doable. You may not want to do it if you're honing multiple razors a day... but it's not outrageous.

I would expect you'd see more immediate results sticking a finisher after the 6k in to do the work CNAT's aren't great at than you would sticking a 3k in between your 1k and 6k... but really it depends a lot on what your honing looks like.

 

[Shaun asleep]

Does the edge feel like it's toothy? Does it cut the hairs but feel like it's grabbing them and starting to rip them out before it finally cuts?

That indicates you're not doing enough midrange.

Does it not cut at all?

That means you're not beveled.

Both of these.
It cuts a bit left and right, but it is extremely tuggy.

I just tried setting the bevel again. Because I noticed it wasnt cutting through a Cherry tomato without effort. I think I finally managed to get the bevel set.

I used alot of pressure on my 1k stone before todays attempt. Aparently this isn't needed and I'm guessing even counter productieve.

So I am very carefully suggesting that the bevel is FINALLY set. It cut through the tomato skin and went into my nail, but only did the tat test briefly as I can't stand the feeling.

Went on to 6k, then 12k. Still not treetopping. Dont have alot of time tomorrow morning, but am hoping to be able to try. It would be a serious victory, I have tried so many times

But I'm reading I do need something between my 1k and 6k, which should be my priority.

Not sure if I will wait to see if this Kure Nai is ready to rumble. Might pull the trigger on some in betweens today.

 

[Christian1212]

Are coticules an option? Might be a better finisher than the cnat, but should be able to handle the 4-6k range. Not sure if I would want to set a bevel on one and what size is in your budget.

 

[Shaun asleep]

I had a bbw, but sold it. I am stupid, because that would have been a great mid ranger for the ones I have now.

A coticule jaune is pretty expensive in a decent size. I had one that was only 4 or 5 cm wide and found it pretty annoying to use.

 

[Empire straights]

I had a bbw, but sold it. I am stupid, because that would have been a great mid ranger for the ones I have now.

A coticule jaune is pretty expensive in a decent size. I had one that was only 4 or 5 cm wide and found it pretty annoying to use.

Les latneuses are fast enough you can set a bevel >finish quickly. I issue mine to take chips out of knives without slurry occasionally.

 

[JPO]

Les Latneuses coticules are blazing fast, and some can even finish quite well. I only have two, so the sample size is quite small. I have one that cuts like a fast synthetic stone.
They are excellent for mid range work. You can always add an Arkansas stone or something like a Thuringian as a finisher, or a La Veinnette coticule if you can get hold of one.

 

[rbscebu]

@Shaun asleep, I cannot comment on the YJSHARP synthetic whetstones as I have never tried them. However, I do use 400/1k and 3k/8k no-brand Chinese synthetics for bevel-setting and initial refinement. From there I go onto 3μm and 1μm films before the finisher of my choice.

I also have no experience with a Kure Nai. The only Chinese made SRs I have honed are Gold Dollars. I have a lot of experience honing Taiwanese Titans.

Your jump from 1k to 6k is rather large and I wouldn't do that. My suggestion would be to get the 3k/8k Chinese synthetic and learn through experience how to get the best out of the whetstones that you have.

Nothing wrong with your Cnat finisher. I have one and it works well for me. The only caveat would be that it only works well when you are starting off with a reasonably good already shave-ready edge.

I use my 400 for heavy metal removal if needed. The 1k is used until the bevel is just starting to be set and then I finish my bevel-set on the 3k. Remember, you should be able to shave your face, although not that comfortably, off your bevel-set. If you can't, you have not properly set the bevel.

Take your time with honing. There is no rush unless you need to hone multiple SRs each day. With my level of knowledge and experience now, I can hone a factory edge multifacet beveled SR to my standard of shave-ready in about an hour±. It use to take me 4 to 6 hours while I was learning.

 

[rbscebu]

....
I Dont understand films really, I tried some paste earlier but couldn't get it to work.

Don't be concerned with trying to understand films. They are effectively just like whetstones without some of the variables. Films don't need lapping flat, have consistent grit sizes and, provided you are not honing a lot of SRs , they are quite economical. If I remember, I'll send you some instructions on putting together a lapping film system.

As for pasted, I normally only use diamond pastes on balsa strops. I have been know to use cerium oxide paste on a denim strop in a pinch.

 

[Shaun asleep]

I ordered a set of a 240-800 and 3000-8000 chinese synths.

Didn't really need the first one, but they came in a single package and you never know what beaters I'll come across on the way.

Thanks for the help!

 

[rbscebu]

I ordered a set of a 240-800 and 3000-8000 chinese synths.

Didn't really need the first one, but they came in a single package and you never know what beaters I'll come across on the way.

Thanks for the help!

Keep your SRs away from the 240. It may work well for your meat cleavers .

 

[Shaun asleep]

Nou ... het sneed niet, moest overschakelen naar mijn de.

 

[Shaun asleep]

No idea why it's posted in Dutch. Anyhow, Kurenai didn't cut. Hopefully the new stones will help me get there.

 

[Legion]

I had a bbw, but sold it. I am stupid, because that would have been a great mid ranger for the ones I have now.

A coticule jaune is pretty expensive in a decent size. I had one that was only 4 or 5 cm wide and found it pretty annoying to use.

"Only 4 or 5cm"

Haha, I know it is trickier when you are new, but 5cm, or 2" was a pretty standard sharpening stone width for knives and tools, and razor stones were often only 1" wide. It's just practice to get the muscle memory.

You being in Belgium, I would second the idea of getting a coticule. With slurry control it will cover the whole gap you have in the progression, and you don't have to pay the international shipping, which is the killer for most of us.

Get a bout, they are not usually harder to use, but save you a fair bit of money.

 

[Shaun asleep]

Yes, I felt compelled to buy a Coticule at first. But this whole honing thing seems difficult enough as is with a stone thats "razor sized".

I am starting to sound alot like the guy who blames his tools, but it's obviously my lack of experience. I'm hoping the wider synths will be easier. Do see myself getting another coti if I get these synths worked out.

The Ardennes, where they are "harvested" is quite a popular holiday destination and only a 190 km drive.
Hills, dense forests, kayaking, Mountain-biking,... I have all of August free, so perhaps I might have a looksie to see if the stones are a bit cheaper when bought straight from the quarry.

 

[Legion]

Yes, I felt compelled to buy a Coticule at first. But this whole honing thing seems difficult enough as is with a stone thats "razor sized".

I am starting to sound alot like the guy who blames his tools, but it's obviously my lack of experience. I'm hoping the wider synths will be easier. Do see myself getting another coti if I get these synths worked out.

The Ardennes, where they are "harvested" is quite a popular holiday destination and only a 190 km drive.
Hills, dense forests, kayaking, Mountain-biking,... I have all of August free, so perhaps I might have a looksie to see if the stones are a bit cheaper when bought straight from the quarry.

Dude, I'd be wandering about in paddocks with a rock hammer, and picking up stuff off the side of the road. No farmers wall would be safe...

 

[Empire straights]

Yes, I felt compelled to buy a Coticule at first. But this whole honing thing seems difficult enough as is with a stone thats "razor sized".

I am starting to sound alot like the guy who blames his tools, but it's obviously my lack of experience. I'm hoping the wider synths will be easier. Do see myself getting another coti if I get these synths worked out.

The Ardennes, where they are "harvested" is quite a popular holiday destination and only a 190 km drive.
Hills, dense forests, kayaking, Mountain-biking,... I have all of August free, so perhaps I might have a looksie to see if the stones are a bit cheaper when bought straight from the quarry.

If you're in Belgium you could probably get AC to cut you a 5 x 2.5" barbers sized les latneuse for a reasonable price. If you ask for a fast one they'll probably hunt one out for you, then the hybrid side will be somewhat like an Arkansas finish.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

“It cuts a bit left and right, but it is extremely tuggy.”

Tuggy means the edge is dull or not keen enough. Yea if you are not cutting a tomato, it’s the edge. Extremely tuggy, is a dull razor.

The C12k are notorious for not being anywhere close to 12k, and 6k at best, especially the newer stones. You are likely going backwards with the C12k, so eliminate it from the progression.

Invest in a quality, known performer, finish stone, 8, 10 or 12k. Snow White, Fuji, Shehiro, or Super Stone. Yup, out of your price point, but that is the cost of a quality, no brainer performer.

Or get some 1um film and a glass tile$4. And finish on it for a screaming edge, it will make the 6k jump easily. 1-6k jump is a very doable jump, you do not need anything in between.

It is not so much the “grit rating” All 8ks are not alike, but the quality of the grit and the binder. You can get away with sub-par bevel setter and mid grit stones, but the finisher will need to pick up the slack and finish the edge that the other stones may not have. All the stones above, have a wide range and can do that easily, but an inexpensive 8k is doubtful.

There is a reason why quality stones are priced as they are, and they work. The trick to learning to hone and producing repeatable quality shaving edges, is to eliminate as many variables, not add them.

 

[Gamma]

Can you manage a shave with the edge off the bevel setting stone?
If yes - move to next stone and hone until you improve the edge, check with a shave.
If no - your bevel isn't set. Go back and learn to set the bevel. Progress when you succeed.
An unset bevel can be due to user error or stone incompetence or possibly all of the above.
If it is user error, up your game.
If the stone in question is not setting a good bevel, get a new stone.

 

[Shaun asleep]

Guys, I appreciate your input.

I have bought two new razors, a NOS Jaguar from a private seller and a new razor from Rasoir Sabre. The last one should be shave ready.

The Chinese stones seem to have both fans and people who think they are a waste of money.
I can only say I did freshen up my Bismarck on the 12k adaee, so my guess is that the natural stone is fine.

The Jaguar, not being shave ready, will give me another razor to hone from scratch.

I had a Belgian blue, Coticule and Black Shadow before and the Kure Nai never really took the edge I wanted. Even though back then, I believe (told myself) I did get it close.

So I am either (and probably) total rubbish at honing, which would make sense. I'm new to this. Or the Kure Nai is just a really bad razor? If the Jaguar does take an edge on the Chinese platforms then the Chinese razor is to blame, and the stones are fine. If it doesn't take an edge then I'm inclined to take them both to a professional honer nearby, who can hopefully hone them and give me some pointers.

Once honed I should be able to maintain them on the cnat.

The 3k and 8k synths arrived 2 minutes ago. If I find some time, I'll push the Kure Nai on through the entire Chinese set.

I've just finished another great 2 pass shave on my Bismarck. So not all is bad.