128 shaves on a NOS Wilkinson blade

[Bookworm]

From using _knives_, I can tell you that no matter what Bosseb and Rabidus have to say, the blades ARE getting more dull with every stroke. They've simply refined their technique to the point where they are managing absolute minimal blade impact _except_ on their hair. Skin is a LOT tougher than you might think, and if you're dragging the blade across your skin, you are doing the same sort of work as if you took a sword blade and repeatedly struck the side of the edge with a nylon jewelers hammer. You're folding it over in tiny increments. Flipping it over means those strikes are now happening against the other side of the blade, thus straightening some parts, and folding others back the other direction. This is known as _stropping_

By the time they hit where the blade isn't cutting anymore (for them), I would suspect that the edge of the blade looks more like a saw than the original blade. They'll have repeatedly broken small pieces of the edge off, but other sections will have been polished to replace it by their skin. Again - stropping. Rabidus and Bosseb are hitting with minimal angle, so they're more buffing the edge of the blade with their skin than the normal drag and scrape that most of us do.

@rabidus - if I sent you postage, could you send me one of your 'finished' blades? I have a cheap digital microscope, and an expensive one I can use at a jewelers. I'm sure Bosseb has tossed his old one and doesn't want to dig it out at this point, and I don't want to wait another four months for the next blade I wonder what he could do with a Nacet.

 

[DomBangers]

I enjoy changing blades so have no desire to hang on to one for more than a few days. It is true that flipping the blade serves as a kind of stropping to give the blades longer life, but for me i find my burgeoning arsenal of different blades gets the better of me long before the blade has outlived it's usefulness. I'm actually flipping my current blade - a Gillette Super Thin - and it's going strong after a fair few shaves, but i have more than a hundred of these things and a bag in front of me with Feather, GSB, Yellows, Polsilver, Nacet, Rapira, Astra blue and green X200 staring at me so i'm unlikely to hold out for long.

 

[DomBangers]

From using _knives_, I can tell you that no matter what Bosseb and Rabidus have to say, the blades ARE getting more dull with every stroke. They've simply refined their technique to the point where they are managing absolute minimal blade impact _except_ on their hair. Skin is a LOT tougher than you might think, and if you're dragging the blade across your skin, you are doing the same sort of work as if you took a sword blade and repeatedly struck the side of the edge with a nylon jewelers hammer. You're folding it over in tiny increments. Flipping it over means those strikes are now happening against the other side of the blade, thus straightening some parts, and folding others back the other direction. This is known as _stropping_

By the time they hit where the blade isn't cutting anymore (for them), I would suspect that the edge of the blade looks more like a saw than the original blade. They'll have repeatedly broken small pieces of the edge off, but other sections will have been polished to replace it by their skin. Again - stropping. Rabidus and Bosseb are hitting with minimal angle, so they're more buffing the edge of the blade with their skin than the normal drag and scrape that most of us do.

@rabidus - if I sent you postage, could you send me one of your 'finished' blades? I have a cheap digital microscope, and an expensive one I can use at a jewelers. I'm sure Bosseb has tossed his old one and doesn't want to dig it out at this point, and I don't want to wait another four months for the next blade I wonder what he could do with a Nacet.

You're absolutely right. I'm a keen knife sharpener with many Japanese wetstones and some knowledge on this subject. But the bottom line with any blade is that the thinner it is the sharper it is and a razor blade is always going to be relatively sharp, even if it's dull. I have clunky German chef knives that are totally useless when properly dull, but my super thin cheapo Thai chef knives made of cheap super thin stainless will keep cutting well after becoming dull, or as we say in the UK, blunt. Simply because they are thinner. Any razor blade is going to continue to cut - depending on the hair involved - if the user is determined enough, because they are "paper thin" and there is so little resistance.
Personally, i dump all my blades within a week because i'm looking forward to changing to a different brand and like fresh blades. I don't know if my Shapton 5000 grit or King 6000 grit would add life to my blades via stropping because i'm too lazy to try. Perhaps i ought to try. And do you thing either of these stones would spruce up a razor blade at those grits? I also have a leather strop with smurfpoo on it.

 

[Bookworm]

I think it'd depend on how beat up the edge is before you do it. If you used one twice, then the smurfpoo. If you used them for a week or two, then probably a micromesh or similar. You'd have to build a rolling jig to run the blade at a perfect angle across the mesh without dragging the jig itself across that same mesh. I'd be looking at something along the lines of a Rolls Razor strop system, where the strop is nailed flat. Despite the naysayers, stainless can get and hold an edge just fine. It just won't hold it as long as high carbon would. There are always tradeoffs. My Victorinox blade can hold an insanely fine edge - but that's stupid to put on a knife, because a razor edge is NOT the right edge for utility work

 

[DomBangers]

I think it'd depend on how beat up the edge is before you do it. If you used one twice, then the smurfpoo. If you used them for a week or two, then probably a micromesh or similar. You'd have to build a rolling jig to run the blade at a perfect angle across the mesh without dragging the jig itself across that same mesh. I'd be looking at something along the lines of a Rolls Razor strop system, where the strop is nailed flat. Despite the naysayers, stainless can get and hold an edge just fine. It just won't hold it as long as high carbon would. There are always tradeoffs. My Victorinox blade can hold an insanely fine edge - but that's stupid to put on a knife, because a razor edge is NOT the right edge for utility work

I have a couple of Chan Chi Kee slicing cleavers, one in stainless and another in Carbon steel and i only really use the latter. but they both get mean sharp. Actually the first one is so big it's ridiculous, but i do have a penchant for the 1303 small carbon slicer. Funnily enough i use my cheapo Thai knives most of the time and rarely take my Gyuto out of it's box. In no small part because i enjoy sharpening the Thai knives which go off the boil very quickly. Most of the time an Ikea ceramic rod keeps them in tip top shape.
I bought my mum and sister Victorinox chef knives last year and sharpen them for them. Nice blade and i'll probably get myself one at some point. my sister's goes blunt very quickly though, but having seen how she treats her knives it's not altogether surprising. I think she uses it to open cans.

 

[psfred]

Razor blades are polished far beyond 6000 grit, you would be very disappointed if you tried to hone them with a 6k King stone.

Stainless (the correct alloy, of course) will take and hold a very fine edge, although simple carbon steel will almost always get just a tiny bit sharper due to the smaller carbides in the steel. Carbon steel will NOT hold an edge longer, but it is usually much easier to sharpen due to lower hardness.

As always, it's a tradeoff. I prefer either good carbon or something like VG-10 stainless (Tojiro DP is my favorite at the moment). The carbon has to be touched up regularly, the DP usually goes six or seven months in my kitchen between touchups.

I use modern stainless steel coated razor blades for a long time -- I suspect it takes a dozen or so shaves before the diamond like carbon coating is damaged significantly enough for the user to tell.

Peter

 

[bosseb]

...
Rabidus and Bosseb are hitting with minimal angle, so they're more buffing the edge of the blade with their skin than the normal drag and scrape that most of us do. ...

This is a very distinct analysis of my shaving technique! It is very much a question of technique - the choice of blade is for me very secondary...

 

[bosseb]

As an over all comment to the discussion above I must add that I am very accustomed to sharpening my kitchen knives with a double sided Arkansas stone ( Sabatiers in coal steel from the 80's!!) and when I tried to transfer that knowledge into sharpening Swedish straights ( Heljestrands and several others) the results were distinctly subpar. I then switched from stones to film and the results were as bad. Sadly I had to abandon the experiment right at the beginning because of the intensive pain from my skin.

The only "straight" I can use is the CJB Feather clone with a Kai or Feather disposable blade. Those blades are IMHO sharper than anything man honed! I use them to re calibrate my muscle memory for DE shaving - very effective indeed.

 

[Accionmutante]

I think you may have started a shaving trend.

 

[psfred]

There are three types of edge failure in sharpened tools -- deformation where the edge is bent away from a flat apex, fracture where pieces of the edge are broken off, and abrasion wear, where the edge stays in the correct shape but the apex slowly wears away.

Razor blades are very very hard (carbon steel straight razors are usually RC63, stainless ones likely a bit higher) and blades are, I expect, similar. They cannot be tested with a penetration tester (the Rockwell C scale type) because they will fracture. I don't think you are going to see much deformation wear. This is also true of high hardness stainless knives, a reason that I don't recommend using a "steel" on them. Softer "German" knives deform in use, and a steel works very nicely to stand the apex back up straight. Can't bend back up what is broken off, eh?

Fracture degredation is going to be related to blade angle -- the higher the angle, the more sideways loading there is on the edge, so the greater the tendency to fracture. Lower angles direct the pressure from cutting hairs into the bulk of the blade.

Modern blades are all, so far as I know, coated with a substantial amount of diamond like carbon -- it will NOT wear away cutting hair in a couple shaves, but it WILL crack and spall away if the blade is deformed.

Using a blade for many, many shaves results in abrasion wear, and that is evidenced by the inability of the blade to give a close shave, no matter how many passes one makes. I don't get much more tugging, just less and less cutting effect. Along with that comes no weepers or nicks unless I do something stupid, unlike new blades were slight excess pressure results in weepers.

Hence my mantra:

Good prep, shallow angle, gentle short strokes with the razor, excellent lather. Easy, comfortable shaves and minimal wear on the blade.

There is an art to shaving with a "dull" blade like a Dorco or Derby, and when you master those, you will find, I suspect, that "sharp" blades stay sharp a very long time when used in the same manner.

Peter

 

[Ron R]

If you want to extend the life and enjoy a sharper smoother shave you have to strop and keep the blade clean.
I have been experimenting with a cartridge proglide(high carbon stainless) for over 60 shaves and all I did was cut a continuous loop of denim(width of the blade) from a leg of a pair of old blue jeans and took the towel bar off and slipped the denim ring through the bar and but the bar back as the towel rack. Now it so easy to strop-give it a few swipes before and after each shave. Take a extra 30 seconds for prep and it should improve the blade & shave. (the only draw back its a little DANGEROUS with a DE blade-confidence is all you should need.)
A sharp knife is less dangerous than a dull one "chefs claim", I think it could be the same for wet shavers who use DE(high carbon steel or ss) blades if the right technique used!
All the best

 

[albsat]

@bosseb

If you were forced to reduce your razor arsenal in 3-4 pieces, what would be your razor choice?

 

[Storch4]

Nicely done. 7 for me is the max. Why bother extending a blade when I have a closet full. My whiskers can dull diamond cutting blades in one shave so I enjoy having a fresh blade every few days. It's not a Mach III cart at 4 bucks a pop we are binning every few days.

 

[Cal]

My whiskers can dull diamond cutting blades in one shave so I enjoy having a fresh blade every few days.

I think you missed the point @bosseb was making Storch4. Consider replacing the word "whiskers" in your sentence above with the word "technique."