Very strange scales material - What the hell is it

[Bevel]

I got this Joseph Fenton & Sons a while ago but it's been in my "to do" pile for ages.
I took it out the other day and started restoring it but couldn't figure out what the scales are made from.

Before I did anything with it it appeared to be a hard pressed leather. Felt like it, looked like it. See picture.

Then I took it apart and started sanding it and my thoughts moved to wood, I thought maybe ebony.
When sanding the scales the paper got coated in a very dark brown mud like substance, so again I wasn't sure.

I thought maybe it's celluloid but I've never worked with it before so I wouldn't be sure. I usually only work with horn or wood.
(I guestimate the razor to be 130+ years old but if anyone knows different let me know. Age might help eliminate some materials)

I have the razor sanded to a level I can live with and the scales are clean and matte looking. Usually, with the process I use on scales, they would be shiny (up to 12k grit) but it seems they want to stay matte black (or an extremely dark brown) so I'm not going to argue with them.

I was about to peen the wedge in when the scales started to stick to the steel block I use (there's a magnet attached) and I thought is that wedge not lead?
I took the wedge back out and put it to the magnet and it didn't stick. I took the Nickel silver rod I was using and held it to the magnet and that didn't stick.
I was thinking, what the hell, and when I picked up the scale it was lightly stuck to the magnet .
What the hell is this scale made out of, I've never come across this material before.

 

[Legion]

Best guess is it is some sort of organic polymer, and you gave it a mild magnetic charge while sanding it.

 

[LJS]

Vulcanized rubber maybe? Breaking down which is why they keep eroding back to matte? Throwing out another guess.

 

[Bevel]

Thanks for the reply.
I tried a single staple (just as it's so light) and the scales themselves aren't magnetic but they are attracted to a magnet.
I've taken a few more pictures in natural light that gives a better idea if it helps.

Perhaps if we can date the razor we can rule out more modern materials.
The stamp is a little damaged around the "& sons" part which is a pity as this razor seems very rare, as in, a search on the usual sites bring up very few for sale. Only one on ebay when I last checked.

 

[Bevel]

Vulcanized rubber maybe? Breaking down which is why they keep eroding back to matte? Throwing out another guess.

That's an interesting one. I think, when sanding, I probably could say they were a rubber in that the sand paper quickly filled with a darkish muddy substance. It was almost immediately blocked up with the stuff.
Would vulcanized rubber be attracted to a magnet? and fit the time period?
Any guesses at dates are welcome. (1797 to 1919)

 

[SCh5]

Could be ebonite ...
Particles attracted to a magnet ,
could be contamination .

From wikipedia :
{...} Ebonite contamination was problematic when it was used for electronics. The ebonite was rolled between metal foil sheets, which were peeled off, leaving traces of metal behind. For electronic use the surface was ground to remove metal particles. {...}

 

[Bevel]

Yeah, I'm starting to think it's vulcanized rubber or Ebonite. I'm just trying to pin down if that would be attracted to a magnet. The wiki extract suggests grinding was done to remove the metal particles so they were surface only. I've sanded so I'm going to exclude that. Seems ebonite has sulphur as a main ingredient so again the question is sulphur magnetic.

I plan on putting it back together soon and honing it up. I'm thinking stones only (no film) and I might finish on FeOx.
The razor itself is a hefty little fella at 6/8ths. The blade profile looks like it'll be a silent shave.

 

[ajduplessis]

This is pressed leather, I do not know if they inserted a metal core strip to reinforce, will check mine when I get home...

 

[ajduplessis]

Vulcanised rubber was invented by Mr Goodyear in 1844, celluloid plastic in the 1850”s I think. The razor looks like a 1/4 hollow grind that was typical in those days. I did not inspect your blade so I could be wrong. Pressed leather was the other cheap material they used before the plastics.

 

[Bevel]

Vulcanised rubber was invented by Mr Goodyear in 1844, celluloid plastic in the 1850”s I think. The razor looks like a 1/4 hollow grind that was typical in those days. I did not inspect your blade so I could be wrong. Pressed leather was the other cheap material they used before the plastics.

Thanks for the update. Yeah, pressed leather was my first guess as it looked and felt like it, just I had never heard of pressed leather scales before. This also explains why it wouldn't shine up like horn after the full progression to 12k. After being inside, it doesn't look like they could have inserted a metal reinforcing bar (sclaes are quite thin) so the magnetic qualities are still a mystery especially now you confirmed it is in fact leather. Are yours attracted to a magnet?

In your pictures 1 and 4 you can see the little the little depression from the pressing all the way around the boarder, that's exactly what mine looked like before I started restoring it. Sadly I had to remove all of it after a few bits started to fade so it all had to go but it was so unique looking I really wanted to keep it.

I think your right on the 1/4 hollow, it might be a bit more. It's a heavy blade and looks smaller (5/8) than it actually is (6/8) as the top of the spine is flatish rather than domed. It's a gorgeous blade to look at. Still has some pitting and under magnification it shows its age but it can keep it's patina. I peened it back together and half set the bevel last night so I'll try and finish it later. I wonder what Joseph Fenton's tempering process was as the metal was difficult to sand but it seemed to want to take the bevel. As I honed it the edge developed more uniformly than most and, while it sounds ridiculous, I could feel the blade saying yeah that's it, more more. The toe was damaged as you can see in the very first picture so I had to round it back up, that needs more attention honewise.

Do you have any suggestions on how to finish pressed leather? It looks fine in person but a picture brings up the flaws.
Sanding doesn't do a lot in that when you think your making progress it just seems to be crumbling away. I have some beeswax I might try but I want to get it honed up first.

 

[Legion]

Thanks for the update. Yeah, pressed leather was my first guess as it looked and felt like it, just I had never heard of pressed leather scales before. This also explains why it wouldn't shine up like horn after the full progression to 12k. After being inside, it doesn't look like they could have inserted a metal reinforcing bar (sclaes are quite thin) so the magnetic qualities are still a mystery especially now you confirmed it is in fact leather. Are yours attracted to a magnet?

In your pictures 1 and 4 you can see the little the little depression from the pressing all the way around the boarder, that's exactly what mine looked like before I started restoring it. Sadly I had to remove all of it after a few bits started to fade so it all had to go but it was so unique looking I really wanted to keep it.

I think your right on the 1/4 hollow, it might be a bit more. It's a heavy blade and looks smaller (5/8) than it actually is (6/8) as the top of the spine is flatish rather than domed. It's a gorgeous blade to look at. Still has some pitting and under magnification it shows its age but it can keep it's patina. I peened it back together and half set the bevel last night so I'll try and finish it later. I wonder what Joseph Fenton's tempering process was as the metal was difficult to sand but it seemed to want to take the bevel. As I honed it the edge developed more uniformly than most and, while it sounds ridiculous, I could feel the blade saying yeah that's it, more more. The toe was damaged as you can see in the very first picture so I had to round it back up, that needs more attention honewise.

Do you have any suggestions on how to finish pressed leather? It looks fine in person but a picture brings up the flaws.
Sanding doesn't do a lot in that when you think your making progress it just seems to be crumbling away. I have some beeswax I might try but I want to get it honed up first.
View attachment 1188999

Bees wax might be ok. You wouldn't want to use any normal leather conditioning product, since most of those are made to soften the leather. The last thing you want is "supple" scales.

 

[Bevel]

Lol, yeah floppy scales might be a bit of a problem. I used a little beeswax and it shined them up a bit and made them smoother.

I honed it up yesterday with shaptons to 12k then CrOx, FeOx and a stropping on balsa instead of leather for a change. It still needs some refinement as it was just ok comfort-wise so I might take it to film but I'll see. The bevel is nice and small which I prefer and the shave was silent.

 

[LJS]

mmmmmm........supple scales........

 

[ajduplessis]

This is pressed leather, I do not know if they inserted a metal core strip to reinforce, will check mine when I get home...
View attachment 1188979

I checked mine and they are NOT magnetic at all. If the are leather I would use a silcone spray lightly and then polish. Leather you want to keep bone dry always.

 

[Lyon Heart]

I have similar scales on three razors.

I'd received an explanation in one of the B&B forums that they are Micarta (a blend of rubber or early plastic with linen fibers). The book The Standard Guide to Razors describes a scale material as fiber; "Fiber handle is made from phenol-formaldehyde compounded with wood fiber....."

Having taken a second look at these I realize that the Ford & Medley scales have no fiber. They are flat with a simple bevel edge and are probably cut & beveled from a sheet of vulcanized rubber. The other two are clearly pressed with nicer edges and contain fibers.

To fix up the fibre scales I soaked them for 30 seconds, scrubbed them with soap & water and then placed them between popsicle sticks and a couple paper clips and let them dry for a week (They had been badly warped and looked like some sort of leather) I then wiped them with some bees wax paste and went back & polished them a week later.

Although I like a nice set of horn scales, I've always thought the slightly flexible durable micarta is ideal and surprised it wasn't more popular.

 

[Bevel]

I have similar scales on three razors.

That's interesting thanks.
When I was full in 'what the hell are these mode' I first thought they were pressed leather.
Then I sanded the outside of the scales with, I think it was about 800 w/d paper and thought, hang on, are these horn?
I stopped sanding right there and dipped a finger in neatsfoot oil, covered the scales and left them for a few days.

They were a bit warped so I thought I'd address that before I went any further.
I dropped them in very hot water (probably about 85C) and they fizzed like an effervescent tablet with thousands of tiny bubbles coming off them.
That's never happened with horn so then I thought it was ebony, not entirely sure why.
Mine did look very like the two separate scales and the bottom of your picture but there's no fiber in them. The outside I was able to sand smooth up to 12k but the insides (there's pics further up) were like sanding silt so I didn't overdo it.
I'm with ajduplessis in that I'm back to my initial guess at pressed leather but the magnetic properties are still bugging me.

 

[HowardS]

I got this Joseph Fenton & Sons a while ago but it's been in my "to do" pile for ages.
I took it out the other day and started restoring it but couldn't figure out what the scales are made from.

Before I did anything with it it appeared to be a hard pressed leather. Felt like it, looked like it. See picture.

Then I took it apart and started sanding it and my thoughts moved to wood, I thought maybe ebony.
When sanding the scales the paper got coated in a very dark brown mud like substance, so again I wasn't sure.

I thought maybe it's celluloid but I've never worked with it before so I wouldn't be sure. I usually only work with horn or wood.
(I guestimate the razor to be 130+ years old but if anyone knows different let me know. Age might help eliminate some materials)

I have the razor sanded to a level I can live with and the scales are clean and matte looking. Usually, with the process I use on scales, they would be shiny (up to 12k grit) but it seems they want to stay matte black (or an extremely dark brown) so I'm not going to argue with them.

I was about to peen the wedge in when the scales started to stick to the steel block I use (there's a magnet attached) and I thought is that wedge not lead?
I took the wedge back out and put it to the magnet and it didn't stick. I took the Nickel silver rod I was using and held it to the magnet and that didn't stick.
I was thinking, what the hell, and when I picked up the scale it was lightly stuck to the magnet .
What the hell is this scale made out of, I've never come across this material before.

View attachment 1188504

New one on me! I've worked with a lot of different scale materials but never any that are magnetic.

 

[Bevel]

New one on me! I've worked with a lot of different scale materials but never any that are magnetic.

Just to clarify they are not magnetic themselves but they are attracted to a magnet. There's a name for it but I can't remember, It's ferrous-something-or-other.

They won't pickup a single staple, which is the lightest piece of metal I can find, but they attracted to a magnet.
Originally I thought the lead wedge somehow wasn't lead at all or the Nickel rod was attracting but after testing them seperatley and eliminating them I went to pick up the scales which were lightly stuck to the magnet. There's no space inside for any sort of support rod, It's bizarre.

 

[Legion]

Just to clarify they are not magnetic themselves but they are attracted to a magnet. There's a name for it but I can't remember, It's ferrous-something-or-other.

They won't pickup a single staple, which is the lightest piece of metal I can find, but they attracted to a magnet.
Originally I thought the lead wedge somehow wasn't lead at all or the Nickel rod was attracting but after testing them seperatley and eliminating them I went to pick up the scales which were lightly stuck to the magnet. There's no space inside for any sort of support rod, It's bizarre.

The word is just Ferromagnetic.

Out of interest, is the blade that was in the scales magnetic? Some old razors were magnetised as some sort of selling point. They were claimed to shave better, though I'm sure that was rubbish.

 

[Bevel]

The word is just Ferromagnetic.

Out of interest, is the blade that was in the scales magnetic? Some old razors were magnetised as some sort of selling point. They were claimed to shave better, though I'm sure that was rubbish.

It wasn't but it is now after I had it on a magnetic sanding jig. I need to get a new demagnetizer as those little block ones are useless.

The blade wasn't near the scales when I noticed they were attracted to a magnet though as it was when I was peening the wedge end back together so it's not the blade that's causing it. The scales on their own with no pins, wedge or anything else stick, it's just so strange.