Cal's "I don't do journals" Journal

[Cal]

Cal, what stones do you have?

My "intention" was to have ONE 12k Whetstone to sharpen my "shave ready" razor as and when required, well, it still is my intention in fact.

I now have the AJ Welsh Slate (12k) Whetstone and a stone to flatten it (which it definitely needed).

 

[Somerled]

Doug @Somerled, those are some interesting and instructive photos. It's very good of you to help Cal with all this SR stuff (and I know you're enjoying doing so). I think a truly sharp razor is going to really blow Cal's mind.

Happy shaves,

Jim

Would give me great pleasure if I can get this to truly sharp Jim.

To be honest I'm a little worried about it, because I spotted something yesterday I didn't like the look of.
If you look at these 3 pictures you might see what I'm talking about.



This is very hard to show, but if you look closely you might see the spine is out of whack.
My razor doesn't look like that, it's perfectly symetrical.
At a guess I would say it's a manufacture defect.
How it will affect the outcome of the honing I'm about to do on it is unknown to me.
Hopefully it won't, but the spine and the width of the blade (from the nearest wear point of the spine to the edge) dictates the angle the bevel will be.
I've measured this blade with calipers and the angle varies from side to side and heel to toe.

I'll make one attempt at getting a bevel with the burr method without using tape.
If that fails I'll try with tape. I really don't want to wear the spine much more than it already is.
Calculating the bevel angle is giving me just over 20 degrees. My razor is around 17 degrees.

I know this isn't what Cal wants to hear.
Fingers crossed I'm worrying about nothing .

Edit, this picture might show it better.

 

[Clay S]

This is very hard to show, but if you look closely you might see the spine is out of whack

The third photo shows it clearly, that it isn't symmetrical. The first two, I thought might be a trick of the light or camera angle, the third tells the tale.

 

[Somerled]

The third photo shows it clearly, that it isn't symmetrical. The first two, I thought might be a trick of the light or camera angle, the third tells the tale.

Glad you can see what I'm on about Clay.
Edited the post with another picture that shows it better.

 

[Seveneighth]

Would give me great pleasure if I can get this to truly sharp Jim.

To be honest I'm a little worried about it, because I spotted something yesterday I didn't like the look of.
If you look at these 3 pictures you might see what I'm talking about.

View attachment 939265 View attachment 939266 View attachment 939267

This is very hard to show, but if you look closely you might see the spine is out of whack.
My razor doesn't look like that, it's perfectly symetrical.
At a guess I would say it's a manufacture defect.
How it will affect the outcome of the honing I'm about to do on it is unknown to me.
Hopefully it won't, but the spine and the width of the blade (from the nearest wear point of the spine to the edge) dictates the angle the bevel will be.
I've measured this blade with calipers and the angle varies from side to side and heel to toe.

I'll make one attempt at getting a bevel with the burr method without using tape.
If that fails I'll try with tape. I really don't want to wear the spine much more than it already is.
Calculating the bevel angle is giving me just over 20 degrees. My razor is around 17 degrees.

I know this isn't what Cal wants to hear.
Fingers crossed I'm worrying about nothing .

Edit, this picture might show it better.

View attachment 939270

When I started dealing with razors like that I got into more of a mess using tape. But that's probably just me.

I got a bevel but it was untidy. It was Keith V. Johnson's bevel setting 101 video that helped me, his grip and the rolling torque. Once I started doing that without tape I got more success. I guess it works for me because I can feel the spine contact better.

Given that the majority of people seem to tape in this situation I am probably odd.

 

[Cal]

Fingers crossed I'm worrying about nothing .

Hopefully!

Looking at the pic of both razors together, it does look like mine is a good bit smaller (blade size). I'm guessing that mine has probably had lots of use (and misuse).

If it turns out that I've purchased a lemon I guess I'll just put it down to experience (after complaining to the seller of course). I saw that the spine was asymmetrical as soon as I received it, but I just assumed that was because it's a kamisori.
Ignorance is bliss, huh?

 

[Clay S]

Edited the post with another picture that shows it better.

Oh yeah, that shows the left has a steep angle that doesn't go to the center of the spine, while the right has a much flatter angle going well past centerline.

Given that the majority of people seem to tape in this situation I am probably odd.

even if you were doing . . .,

I'm the type that would try to grind it to be correct. And it would be perfect, a perfect metal silver.

 

[Seveneighth]

Oh yeah, that shows the left has a steep angle that doesn't go to the center of the spine, while the right has a much flatter angle going well past centerline.

If you doing it properly you would tape one side only? How would you calculate the difference needed though?


Or does it even matter - just like a kamisori I suppose.

 

[Somerled]

When I started dealing with razors like that I got into more of a mess using tape. But that's probably just me.

I got a bevel but it was untidy. It was Keith V. Johnson's bevel setting 101 video that helped me, his grip and the rolling torque. Once I started doing that without tape I got more success. I guess it works for me because I can feel the spine contact better.

Given that the majority of people seem to tape in this situation I am probably odd.

No, I'm with you on this.

Keith has been the biggest influence on me with honing and I try to copy his style.
So far it's working.
But Cal's razor has me scratching my head. Not only is the spine over to one side, but there is uneven wear all along it. Someone has tried to compensate for this and screwed it up by the looks of it.
I'm only concerened I may put even more wear on the spine and judging by the angles I've calculated, it's the last thing it needs.

 

[Clay S]

If you doing it properly you would tape one side only? How would you calculate the difference needed though?


Or does it even matter - just like a kamisori I suppose.

To do it properly, I would see if Doc would do it

I new to honing razors, but my eyes work I added a response to your post into my previous post while you were typing this.

 

[Cal]

Here's an end on pic from the seller:

Then one I took after receiving it:

And the same pic after a few measurements:

 

[Somerled]

Had a look at some of my other razors.
The only brand new razor I've ever bought is a Dovo Bismarck.
Nice razor, and for a long time it was my favourite.
I noticed uneven spine and edge wear after I honed it.
Maybe now I know why.

It's not so obvious as Cal's razor, but the spine is slightly out of whack.
Dovo's have a reputation for producing less than straight razors.

Encouragingly I got a nice edge on it and it shaves very well.
Hopefully I can do the same for Cal's.

 

[Seveneighth]

Here's an end on pic from the seller:
View attachment 939272

Then one I took after receiving it:
View attachment 939273

And the same pic after a few measurements:
View attachment 939274

Do you have the measurement from the edge to the apex of the spine on each side? I guess that would provide the different angle on each side.

The angle of the bevel is calculated on each side. You have in effect two different right angle triangles rather than a two mirror ones.

Am I making any sense?

 

[Somerled]

Here's an end on pic from the seller:
View attachment 939272

Then one I took after receiving it:
View attachment 939273

And the same pic after a few measurements:
View attachment 939274

Hah!
Wish I'd mentioned this to you yesterday. I was worried about telling the bad news about what I'd found.

Those are nice pic's. I was tempted to get my SLR with macro lens out, but I'm lazy.

The vendor's pic doesn't show the whole thing. It's blurred at the crucial place.

Proper way to calculate the angle is from the wear point on the spine (nearest to the blade edge) to the edge of the blade. That gives an average of around 20 degrees. Sweet spot is 17.
Most people don't bother and calculate it with the whole of the blade width.

Anyways, hopefully I'll get a bevel and all this stuff is hocus pocus.

 

[Seveneighth]

Had a look at some of my other razors.
The only brand new razor I've ever bought is a Dovo Bismarck.
Nice razor, and for a long time it was my favourite.
I noticed uneven spine and edge wear after I honed it.
Maybe now I know why.

View attachment 939275

It's not so obvious as Cal's razor, but the spine is slightly out of whack.
Dovo's have a reputation for producing less than straight razors.

Encouragingly I got a nice edge on it and it shaves very well.
Hopefully I can do the same for Cal's.

Dovos have been the babe of my life. Let's just say I've learnt a lot whilst trying to hone them!!

 

[Somerled]

Dovos have been the babe of my life. Let's just say I've learnt a lot whilst trying to hone them!!

Precisely why I won't buy any more.
Even although the one I have is a wonderful razor.
I can do without the worry of thinking I'm buying a screwed up razor.

 

[Cal]

Proper way to calculate the angle is from the wear point on the spine (nearest to the blade edge) to the edge of the blade. That gives an average of around 20 degrees. Sweet spot is 17.
Most people don't bother and calculate it with the whole of the blade width.

I measured from the back of the wear point(s) on the spine (i.e. furthest from the blade edge) to the edge of the blade.

That's because the back of the wear points are at the widest part of the blade (that being where I measured the thickness of the spine). Does that make sense?

 

[Somerled]

I measured from the back of the wear point(s) on the spine (i.e. furthest from the blade edge) to the edge of the blade.
View attachment 939283

That's because the back of the wear points are at the widest part of the blade (that being where I measured the thickness of the spine). Does that make sense?

Someone somewhere on this forum describes it better than I can.

You measure the width of the blade as if you lay it flat on the stone.
The nearest contact point on the spine, thats sitting on the stone, to the blade edge is the true width you use for calculating the angle.

My photoshop skills are lacking or I would draw it out.

Found a drawing by Slash.

My understanding is this.
See the 2 marks on each side of the spine?
The one closest to the blade edge is the proper way to measure it.
If we measure your razor on each side we are going to get two different sizes, because it's skew wiff.

Just had lunch and now to get the honing tackle out.
Lets be positive and hope this will work out.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Would give me great pleasure if I can get this to truly sharp Jim. To be honest I'm a little worried about it, because I spotted something yesterday I didn't like the look of. If you look at these 3 pictures you might see what I'm talking about.

Yes, I see various asymmetries in the photos. I'd have to have the razor in my hand to have an idea what is actually going on with all the wonkiness. I might not know even then. I believe you're correct that the razor was manufacturer improperly (a bad grind) and/or damaged by someone's honing.

As I see it you have three major options.

1. Send it to an expert and ask them to fix it if that makes sense to them and won't cost an arm and a leg.
2. Solicit expert opinions on this forum, determine if there's a consensus opinion which makes sense to you, and follow the expert's advice on how to proceed.
3. Determine with the help of people like me who know nothing about this, or, better, on your own a perhaps rational approach to fixing the problem and dive in.

I believe everyone in this conversation knows I'm not in the ballpark or even the parking lot or even the road to the parking lot when expertise about anything honing related is concerned, so there may be options I've not considered, etc.

Option number two makes, as I see it, less sense than the others. In spite of the facts that there are experts on this forum and you probably know who they are, they won't be able to actually see and hold and examine the razor from multiple angles which makes me worry about the expertise of their opinion.

Option three might work and might be fun if it appeals to you. Of course, you may end up with a letter opener, but you already have one I think so what's to be lost other than your time and effort should you decide to go that route. You might also be very able to fix this mess and wouldn't that be a feather in your cap?

Option one? Probably a true expert will be able to determine immediately, within seconds, whether fixing the razor makes sense. Can it be fixed? If so, what's involved? Is it worth it? Those are not questions for anyone without loads of experience and expertise unless the end game doesn't matter.

If the end game is a great shaving razor I'd go with option number one assuming the expert would only fix the razor if it should be fixed and could be fixed easily enough.

What's the saying?

Here's an end on pic from the seller:
View attachment 939272

Then one I took after receiving it:
View attachment 939273

And the same pic after a few measurements:
View attachment 939274

I could be wrong, but I think the razor you were sent is not the one pictured in the seller's photo.

Cal, where did you buy this razor? Link, please, if eBay.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Cal]

See the 2 marks on each side of the spine?
The one closest to the blade edge is the proper way to measure it.

Sorry, can't agree on that one Doug. As per Slash's sketch, I measured the spine thickness. That gives me OPP. SIDE x 2 (in the sketch). Then I measured from the blade edge to the second mark (the one furthest from the blade edge) giving me the HYPOTENUSE.

So, using this calculator (I'm lazy), I enter the OPP. SIDE into side B, the HYPOTENUSE into side C, and the right angle (90°) into angle C (making sure there's no measurements entered anywhere else). This gives me angle B which is half the blade angle.