Cal's "I don't do journals" Journal

[Esox]

More of a subtle but definitely Sandalwood scent.

I use to play a lot of Chess, but I havent for years. I have a hand carved set that was made in Mexico. Marble for white and I think Agate for black. The problem with it is, the pieces are tall, thin and fragile, especially the King and Queen, and flat on the back. One Queen fell over and cracked so I've been afraid to use it.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

View attachment 935153

I use to play a lot of Chess, but I haven't for years. I have a hand carved set that was made in Mexico. Marble for white and I think Agate for black. The problem with it is, the pieces are tall, thin and fragile, especially the King and Queen, and flat on the back. One Queen fell over and cracked so I've been afraid to use it.

I used to play chess occasionally, but found I don't actually like it much. Also found that there are too many people who are too much better at it than me plus too much of a learning curve to achieve a satisfactory level of play. If I liked it more all that would be different.

My computer allows me to play chess against the machine. On the very low levels I can beat the computer, but it beats me easily if I advance the level a bit. I think the game a bit beyond my intellectual or emotional or patience or interest capacities (or all of these perhaps).

The chess pieces are beautiful. I once had a set some relative I think gave me, and enjoyed how the pieces looked, but Rave's wife's upcoming gift is in another league entirely.

On the other hand, I'm willing to read honing threads.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Seveneighth]

To answer some questions...

@Cal - I was jumping in because I don't want you to experience the same frustrations that I had starting to hone. I started on synthetic stones and went for Shaptons because Knives and tools UK had a special offer. But what I didn't realise was that Shapton have a different grit rating to Naniwas and the 12k Shapton is really 10k. I struggled and struggled to get a pleasant edge off it.

The Llyn Melynllyn stone from AJ's could be argued to be 8k to 10k despite what he advertises. This means you might have difficulty finishing on it. You should be able to get a shave but it might be rough and nothing like the DX. But who can tell. Natural stones are so variable even between two stones taken from the same seam. I have a coticule which hones differently at each end of the stone.

I like to finish on something finer. Here are some options that I use:

Charnley Forest stones. I like these because they are lovely to use, easy to recognise and common on ebay. I am no expert. You need to head over to the Charnley Forest thread rideon66 has been building a wealth of knowledge. The Charnley Forest name puts a premium on the stone and you get Welsh stones being sold as CFs. Whilst the red veined variety are not necessarily the very best (apparently) , they are still fabulous and the easiest to identify, so these are the ones I go for. The red veins are a softer material - the stones "bleed" when you lap them - so I look for a stone with clear red veins but with a honing surface that is free of them.

Water of Ayr. I am dubious about a lot of stones that are advertised as Water of Ayr. I have one that I am 95% because it looks just like the ones you see with their labels intact and it produces a very fine finish. I would always try to find one with a label.

Both the CFs and WoAs are over priced in my opinion. As soon as a stone is labelled as such the bidding jumps. Still the stones I have are lovely.

The Welsh finishers are a lot cheaper and better value.

Yellow lakes. AJs third stone - the yellow lake arrived rough and I had to do a fair amount of lapping. In truth I haven't spent enough time with this stone. I have finished one vintage sheffield on it and it did produce a nice edge. I will use it a lot more after Christmas and write something about it.

I have a vintage yellow lake which wasn't expensive at all. You need a red boxed ones as they are finer than the ones in the yellow boxes. This one is lovely to use.

Llyn Idwal stones are the other finisher. These seem to be variable in terms of looks and properties. I have finished a couple of razors on one but I don't like them nearly as much as the Charnley Forests. They seem a bit glassy to me. I suspect they would be very good if I invested some time. I bought mine because I got really good deals on both of them. I intend to spend some time using them in the future.

In terms of stone size. When I bought my AJ stones I went for the 3 inch wide ones. If ordering again I would go narrower. Most vintage stones are no more than 2 inches wide. Using these really improved my X stroke and I prefer 2 inch wide stones now.

There are a couple of ebay sellers I generally buy from. They lap and generally sell good stones.

Using oil. As I understand it, oil allows you to push the stone to a much higher grit performance. Generally, once you use oil on a stone, it stays an oil stone. This is only partly true, because you can soak the stone in bicycle degreaser for a day or two and clean the oil out. This is what I do with a vintage stone if I buy one. To me you get a lot more feedback when you use oil. You can feel where to edge is rougher and needs more work.

I use Bisley Gun oil - available on Amazon, and dilute this with a squirt of WD40 if I need to. I find it necessary with Charnley Forests.

@Cal, the other big mistake I made at first was not having an effective lapping routine for the stones. You might get away with it with the Llyn Melynllyn but personally I don't like to risk it. I prefer to lap my stones even a little each use. My preferred, easiest and cheapest method is the one I described in a comment above.

I'll post some pictures and more info when I get a chance

 

[Somerled]

Thanks for posting that @Seveneighth.

Going to keep my eye open for a red boxed yellow lake.
At the moment I'm happy to hone with my Naniwa's.
But, natural finishing stones do interest me.

Once I get bored with the Nani's I'll look at the other naturals.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

I've read about the relative differences between the synthetic stones, but Keith @Gamma has this to say about the subject, link, and I tend to trust him on stones and such.

The Naniwa 12k is marginally 'finer' than the Shapton Pro 12k. Very marginally so. I don't know that it would be possible to objectively say that it would be a 'felt' difference if all else was absolutely equal. Remember, the Shaption Pro Japan 12k is the same as the Shapton Pro 15k USA. Comparing feel - The Nani feels a bit softer, and a bit less 'stone like' than the Shapton.

My Shapton 12K is this one, link, the Japanese Pro. I'm barely a honing novice, but this stone followed by finishing on the Arkansas hard black from Sharpening Supplies (and mined and finished by Dan's) + CrOx stropping is both sharp and comfortable. This Shapton was a hugely beneficial addition for me. With an 8K synthetic + the Arkansas I was getting a smooth and comfortable edge but not a sharp edge.

Part of why I got the 12K was because of Keith's comments such as this one.

The Shapton and the Naniwa 12k are both excellent contenders for that slot in a synthetic progression. I would not go from 8k synth to Ark, so the Ark is not, to me, a substitute for a 12k. Arks certainly can be formidable finishers but, IMO, they do much better when set up with an edge that is notably post 8k.

I'm just trying to muddle through and listen to the gentlemen with actual knowledge and experience.

I want to make sure I'm not acting like I know anything other than my little bit of experience and what I've read. In particular I'm not trying to even remotely pretend to be disagreeing with Seveneighth and others who know so much more than me.

It's also possible, Cal, that your razor needs to have its bevel properly set.

To answer some questions...

@Cal - I was jumping in because I don't want you to experience the same frustrations that I had starting to hone...

I've certainly had my share of frustrations, too, and almost wonder if they're not a necessary component of the learning curve. I hope they're not, but there is a lot to learn and a huge amount of confusing material and conflicting points of view. Much like everything else in the shaving universe except on steroids.

These natural stones are so interesting. I so much appreciate you sharing what you know about them. Other than the CF stones I don't hear much about them.

I'm pretty pleased with my Arkansas hard black and haven't even tried my Zulu Grey yet. Many of the stones guys talk about are rocks I'm unlikely to buy because they're both esoteric (and I wouldn't know where to start) and because they seem quite expensive in both money and learning curve. The Welsh slate stones are potentially within my budget and might be something I'd be interested in acquiring. I'm certainly interested in learning reading about them.

Thanks and happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Seveneighth]

I've read about the relative differences between the synthetic stones, but Keith @Gamma has this to say about the subject, link, and I tend to trust him on stones and such.



My Shapton 12K is this one, link, the Japanese Pro. I'm barely a honing novice, but this stone followed by finishing on the Arkansas hard black from Sharpening Supplies (and mined and finished by Dan's) + CrOx stropping is both sharp and comfortable. This Shapton was a hugely beneficial addition for me. With an 8K synthetic + the Arkansas I was getting a smooth and comfortable edge but not a sharp edge.

Part of why I got the 12K was because of Keith's comments such as this one.



I'm just trying to muddle through and listen to the gentlemen with actual knowledge and experience.

I want to make sure I'm not acting like I know anything other than my little bit of experience and what I've read. In particular I'm not trying to even remotely pretend to be disagreeing with Seveneighth and others who know so much more than me.

It's also possible, Cal, that your razor needs to have its bevel properly set.



I've certainly had my share of frustrations, too, and almost wonder if they're not a necessary component of the learning curve. I hope they're not, but there is a lot to learn and a huge amount of confusing material and conflicting points of view. Much like everything else in the shaving universe except on steroids.

These natural stones are so interesting. I so much appreciate you sharing what you know about them. Other than the CF stones I don't hear much about them.

I'm pretty pleased with my Arkansas hard black and haven't even tried my Zulu Grey yet. Many of the stones guys talk about are rocks I'm unlikely to buy because they're both esoteric (and I wouldn't know where to start) and because they seem quite expensive in both money and learning curve. The Welsh slate stones are potentially within my budget and might be something I'd be interested in acquiring. I'm certainly interested in learning reading about them.

Thanks and happy shaves,

Jim

If you are following the Shapton with the Ark then you are using it exactly how i would I think i. e. with a finer finisher to follow. I don't think you are disagreeing with me at all are you?

And you are right about the bevel. It makes it a lot easier if you set the bevel yourself. Then you know the bevel is set.

 

[Seveneighth]

It's silly me equating the Shapton with the AJ stone of Cal's. They are completely different. I just wanted to make the compression between similar types of honing frustrations.

@Cal - if you want to push the stone as fine as it will go, try it with soapy water or glycerin. Try holding it in your hand to help control the pressure to get the X stroke as light as possible.

If that doesn't work, try stropping afterwards with Chromium Oxide paste, but make sure it's the 0.5 micron stuff.

 

[AimlessWanderer]

If that doesn't work, try stropping afterwards with Chromium Oxide paste, but make sure it's the 0.5 micron stuff.

I can send you a chunk of that to try if you want some, Cal. I've got a stick I'll never work through as I don't do much honing, so I can cut you a chunk off.

 

[Seveneighth]

I can send you a chunk of that to try if you want some, Cal. I've got a stick I'll never work through as I don't do much honing, so I can cut you a chunk off.

I think I have a small spare pot of FerOx knocking around. You are welcome to that as well.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

If you are following the Shapton with the Ark then you are using it exactly how i would I think i. e. with a finer finisher to follow. I don't think you are disagreeing with me at all are you?

And you are right about the bevel. It makes it a lot easier if you set the bevel yourself. Then you know the bevel is set.

I hope I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm not inclined to be disagreeable. I enjoy a debate and formal arguments but only those which are polite, civil, respectful, and well mannered. However, in this discussion I don't know anywhere near enough to debate anything. I'm almost embarrassed to have a point of view about anything honing related and hope anyone reading anything I say takes seriously my lack of much experience.

As far as setting the bevel goes I've tried it several times and not known really whether the bevel was actually set or not. It's very hard - for me that is - to ascertain! Very hard as in impossible. Then, I finally figured out exactly how to do the burr method as outlined here by Slash @Slash McCoy. In my opinion there may be other ways to set the bevel but this method is reliable, simple enough, and objective. The only issue is feeling for the burr. Once you get that, the rest is a piece of cake. Besides that, with the burr method you 100% know the bevel is set exactly as it should be. No guesswork at all.

I'm not saying guys who don't use the burr method don't also know the bevel is set. I'm only saying until I did the burr method I wasn't sure myself, and now I am.

I'm now using Norton's sharpening oil on my Arkansas hard black. The oil feels to me to be too thick. I could thin it with mineral spirits or with a tiny spray of WD-40, but I'm inclined to not do so as the "too thick" oil on the stone is giving me a really nice edge which tells me I'm probably incorrect about the oil being too thick. I suspect Norton's knows a bit more about honing than me.

Not that that's a feat. Everybody knows more about honing than me.

Norton makes this oil, too. I've used only the one pictured in the little can with the spout. Perhaps they're two different products. Probably just different packaging and/or sizes of the container.

I've read that the softer Arkansas stones should be used with oil (I've also read a post by a gentleman who has used the array of Ark stones his entire life with water; I believe he finds his owns stones in the wild, as in on the ground, and lives in the area where they can literally be picked up).

Apparently, the hard black Arkansas can be used with either water, soapy water, or oil. I've tried all three and settled on oil for now. While some natural stones absorb the oil and thus have to be dedicated to either oil or water the Ark hard black can be used with either, going back and forth. It doesn't soak up the oil. After each use I quickly wash the stone with soap and water and all the oil is washed off. I know this back and forth oil to water stuff won't work with many natural stones. Well, that's wrong, I don't know it; I've merely read it.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Seveneighth]

I hope I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm not inclined to be disagreeable. I enjoy a debate and formal arguments but only those which are polite, civil, respectful, and well mannered. However, in this discussion I don't know anywhere near enough to debate anything. I'm almost embarrassed to have a point of view about anything honing related and hope anyone reading anything I say takes seriously my lack of much experience.

As far as setting the bevel goes I've tried it several times and not known really whether the bevel was actually set or not. It's very hard - for me that is - to ascertain! Very hard as in impossible. Then, I finally figured out exactly how to do the burr method as outlined here by Slash @Slash McCoy. In my opinion there may be other ways to set the bevel but this method is reliable, simple enough, and objective. The only issue is feeling for the burr. Once you get that, the rest is a piece of cake. Besides that, with the burr method you 100% know the bevel is set exactly as it should be. No guesswork at all.

I'm not saying guys who don't use the burr method don't also know the bevel is set. I'm only saying until I did the burr method I wasn't sure myself, and now I am.

View attachment 935653

I'm now using Norton's sharpening oil on my Arkansas hard black. The oil feels to me to be too thick. I could thin it with mineral spirits or with a tiny spray of WD-40, but I'm inclined to not do so as the "too thick" oil on the stone is giving me a really nice edge which tells me I'm probably incorrect about the oil being too thick. I suspect Norton's knows a bit more about honing than me.

Not that that's a feat. Everybody knows more about honing than me.

View attachment 935656
Norton makes this oil, too. I've used only the one pictured in the little can with the spout. Perhaps they're two different products. Probably just different packaging and/or sizes of the container.

I've read that the softer Arkansas stones should be used with oil (I've also read a post by a gentleman who has used the array of Ark stones his entire life with water; I believe he finds his owns stones in the wild, as in on the ground, and lives in the area where they can literally be picked up).

Apparently, the hard black Arkansas can be used with either water, soapy water, or oil. I've tried all three and settled on oil for now. While some natural stones absorb the oil and thus have to be dedicated to either oil or water the Ark hard black can be used with either, going back and forth. It doesn't soak up the oil. After each use I quickly wash the stone with soap and water and all the oil is washed off. I know this back and forth oil to water stuff won't work with many natural stones. Well, that's wrong, I don't know it; I've merely read it.

Happy shaves,

Jim

I was in no way meaning to suggest you were being disagreeable - far from it. I always enjoy all your posts. You have a fine way of getting to the heart of a matter on any thread.

Due to the excessive investment I have made in shaving so far, there are two rabbit holes I have sworn myself away from at the moment, Jnats and arkansas stones, which is a pity because there were two honemeisters in my family - both long gone and from whom I rebuffed all attempts to be taught - both used Arkansas stones and created the finest edges I've ever shaved with. Regrets...

I can't help you with those stones but I know there are many experienced users on the forum.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

I was in no way meaning to suggest you were being disagreeable - far from it. I always enjoy all your posts. You have a fine way of getting to the heart of a matter on any thread.

Due to the excessive investment I have made in shaving so far, there are two rabbit holes I have sworn myself away from at the moment, Jnats and arkansas stones, which is a pity because there were two honemeisters in my family - both long gone and from whom I rebuffed all attempts to be taught - both used Arkansas stones and created the finest edges I've ever shaved with. Regrets...

I can't help you with those stones but I know there are many experienced users on the forum.

I'm sorry if I implied you were; I knew you weren't suggesting I was being disagreeable.

Jnats are just way beyond me in that they're way expensive in both learning curve and money as far as I can determine. Not that I know anything much about them.

Arkansas stones are not that expensive relatively speaking. I've been able to get a pretty good handle on exactly what I would need should I decide to use them to the exclusion of all other stones. However, I don't plan to do anything of that sort. I don't know that I'll ever even try any Ark less fine than the hard black. I am considering the Norton translucent white stone (but buying nothing anytime soon). Dan's says their Arkansas hard black (which I have) and their Dan's translucent white stone are equal. Norton says otherwise about their white translucent; they call it the finest finishing stone in the world.

Is all that marketing? I have no idea.

As far as I can tell and I've looked and looked and looked there are zero published comparisons of the various synthetic stones if what you're interested in is grit sizes or any other standardized comparison information. Synthetics should be fairly easy to compare compared to the natural stones.

A search for "comparing synthetic honing stones by brand and grit" (without the " marks) brings up a shave library chart which is interesting, but not quite what I want, and how accurate is it? I found the same chart in a post on another forum; somebody wrote the material but it's not like a scientific comparison or anything of that sort.

I know none of the comparison stuff much matters if the stones you're using work for you, but I also know it would be great to "really know" and great for anyone without stones to be able to start with objective information. I think that's one thing making The Method (Slash's film stuff, etc.) so attractive; it is objective, and you know what you're getting. Unlike with stones.

I'm not trying to encourage anyone to get into any particular stones, or stones of any sort for that matter as I think the films probably work great. I'm just interested in the stones, particular your slate stones, and the stones I already have. It's a shame you don't have the Arkansas stones your dad and grandfather used. Wouldn't that be cool?

I very much like reading your posts about the stones and honing. Your perspective is informed about stones most people don't seem to know about, including me.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Cal]

My Hoshi Tombo 8000 Kamisori and I are taking a short break. I intend using the few SR type tools that I have and attempting to get it "shave ready" over the Christmas and New Year period.
Thank you to all the SR folk who have posted for your comments and advice.

If my plan doesn't come together over the holidays the HT will be winging its way to Doctor Doug @Somerled for some serious rehab.

---

SOTD

Brush: Tiny Shavemac Silvertip D01
Soap: Wickham 1912 Unscented
Razor: RazoRock GC84
Blade: Polsilver SI (15)
ASL: Proraso Red

A very, very nice BBS shave with four old favorites and the new kid on the block – Wickham 1912.

A BIG THANK YOU to Mike @Esox (enabler first class) for raving on about Wickham shaving soap. I appreciate that it's early days, only having had one shave with the magical 1912, but if it continues to perform as well as it did today I may not be wanting to bother with any other soap.

I read the descriptions of each 1912 shaving soap. Not being much of a "perfume" guy, the descriptions didn't mean anything much to me. Coming to the "Unscented" one at the end of my reading tour, I was relieved to find words that I could understand: "Unscented: Has no fragrance added, extra gentle on your skin. It does hold a natural fragrance which can be described as being a faint nutty aroma."
That did it. I'm not keen on strong scents and I like "nutty" aromas. And thankfully the soap lives up to that description.

This was my first soap change since starting on the CRS Almond (which is an excellent soap/cream). The main differences that I noticed were:

• 1912 was even slicker than CRS.
• Slick 'n' Thin being my thing, I found it much easier to get the 1912 exactly the way I wanted it (i.e. thin) from the get go.
• The sink water was much less scummy with 1912. I'd put CRS on a par with Proraso Red for scum production (both good soaps but it's nicer having less scum).
• I always do a post-shave lather. The quantity of lather I made with the 1912 was just the same as the quantities of my recent CRS lathers. But with the 1912, I only used a fifth of the amount of the CRS product that I'd been using (I only discovered this on weighing the tub at the end of the shave).

Once again, too much information. But there you have it.

 

[Esox]

A BIG THANK YOU to Mike @Esox (enabler first class) for raving on about Wickham shaving soap. I appreciate that it's early days, only having had one shave with the magical 1912, but if it continues to perform as well as it did today I may not be wanting to bother with any other soap.

You're welcome Cal!

I'm glad, and relieved, that you like it lol. It really is that good. Thanks go to Jim and Rave too. If not for them I most likely wouldnt have tried it. We all should have listened to Jim sooner, like Rave did lol.

I didnt notice the left over residue in my sink, but I dont pay much attention to that. I suspect you're right though.

 

[Somerled]

Recieved Cal's Hoshi Tombo 8000 Kamisori in the post today.

First thing I noticed was uneven spine wear. Not only from one side to the other, but, from heel to toe as well.
I've measured the spine thickness and it's pretty much even all the way along.
Next thing I noticed was a slight burr on the heel and it definately wasn't sharp enough for to be shave ready.

Some pictures.

This was taken with my USB microscope showing the little ding on the heel.

Nothing to write home about and will dissapear when I hone it.

Next I tried to show how marked the edge gets from natural stones.

Next a picture of my HT alongside Cal's

I've painted the spine on Cal's razor to try and show the wear from heel to toe.

I'm not anticipating any real probems honing this to a shave ready condition.
Just wanted to point out and show anything that was out of the ordinary with it before I begin.
Heres a poor picture of mine with the spine painted, hopefully you can see it's not the same as Cal's.

Had to hold the razor up with one hand and take a picture with my other.

Time to get to work!

 

[Cal]

Time to get to work!

Wow Doug! You don't waste any time.

 

[Somerled]

Wow Doug! You don't waste any time.

I like doing this stuff, and I have some free time over the next few days.

First attempt at honing your razor didn't go as well as expected. Just could not get it to the same level as mine.
Started with the same slate you have and honed the little ding away. Moved on to 12k Naniwa and then pasted balsa.
Kind of dissapointed with the results. It's sharper, but not by a huge amount.

Tomorrow I'm going to go right back and set the bevel, then work my way through the progressions. Hopefully that will do it. There is no way this razor could be shave ready with the state the edge is in.

I also did a little work on something else you might be interested in. Remember that other Kamisori I showed you a couple of days ago? The guy had made a mini set of scales to keep the blade safe.

Had a piece of spare Kirinite I had no use for.
Cut out the rough shape I wanted and sanded it down a bit. There are actually two pieces there, stuck together.
I'll make spacers for either end, polish it up and pin it.
Just needs something to tie the razor in, like coloured string.

The slide protectors you have are functional but not very cool looking. Hopefully if this works out it will give it that little extra something.

 

[Cal]

Tomorrow I'm going to go right back and set the bevel, then work my way through the progressions. Hopefully that will do it. There is no way this razor could be shave ready with the state the edge is in.

Jings! I'm glad you've confirmed my surprise at not being able to get it sharp enough (having assumed that it was "about" shave ready). Although I have next to no razor sharpening experience I've always been "good with my hands" as frequently commented on by friends, then later by colleagues (not to mention the ladies ).

I also did a little work on something else you might be interested in. Remember that other Kamisori I showed you a couple of days ago? The guy had made a mini set of scales to keep the blade safe.

I do indeed.

Had a piece of spare Kirinite I had no use for.
Cut out the rough shape I wanted and sanded it down a bit. There are actually two pieces there, stuck together.
I'll make spacers for either end, polish it up and pin it.
Just needs something to tie the razor in, like coloured string.

The slide protectors you have are functional but not very cool looking. Hopefully if this works out it will give it that little extra something.

That's fabulous Doug!

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Cal, what stones do you have?

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Doug @Somerled, those are some interesting and instructive photos. It's very good of you to help Cal with all this SR stuff (and I know you're enjoying doing so). I think a truly sharp razor is going to really blow Cal's mind.

Happy shaves,

Jim