Ready to give up

[monco]

Greetings, a forum first timer here! Have to add that I am not a first timer with straight razors, but then again, maybe I still am a first timer since I still cannot, despite all my efforts, understand how to shave my chin area.

I have been shaving in sort of on and off fashion with straight razors during last 15 years, but I always give up after couple of weeks or months since straights simply refuse to shave my chin area. Gillette Fusion blade (or any Gillette cartridge razor for that matter) will effortlessly shave the chin, no matter what preparation I give to the whiskers, no matter how old the blade is (I've been using a single cartridge up to 4 months at least).

This frustration has led to a combination of straight razor for cheeks and neck, cartridge razor for the rest. Often I just use cartridge razor for all my face, even though a straight razor seems to give better results on my cheeks (WTG and partial ATG). I have been using shaving soaps all these years, my favorite being Tabac. Currently I am using Cella. I prepare my face with warm, semi-hot water and use a badger or boar brush for face lathering (have tried bowl lathering as well). Bad lather gives worse results, good lather is not enough to take the slight discomfort, pulling, and tugging away when going over my chin with the straight razor. I've never really noticed that lathering would magically raise the performance of the straight razor as it always, more or less, stumbles with the tough whiskers on my chin.

With a cartridge razor it doesn't matter what stuff I use for shaving lather, cartridge razor will effortlessly shave everywhere and will not leave sore skin on the chin area, like a straight razor does for me, if I ever get to finish a shave with it, that is. The downside of cartridge razor for me is that it doesn't give smoothest results and I need to shave same spots over and over. It actually takes a considerable amount of time because of this. Straight razor shave with one WTG pass wouldn't probably be much slower, would I be able to do it properly.

I think I've learned something about having a steep angle and good beard prep in all these 15 years of using soaps and trying out straight razors. The miracle of effortlessly shaving my chin area just hasn't happened to me on any occasion. I envy those guys in Youtube just sliding the whiskers away in the chin area.

I own several straight razors, most of them sold to me by Straight Razor Place members years ago, and those razors surely are (or at least were) shave-ready. The sharpest of my straight razors are really only HHT-3 at most, some perhaps HHT-4. A random double edge blade in my drawer, on the other hand, aggressively catches and pops hair, flying it far in the air, which is not quite HHT-5, but indeed makes a big difference to my straight razors.

I also have bought some not shave-ready razors that I have then honed myself using 3M lapping film (lately with Slash McCoy's instructions). The razors come HHT-0 or maybe HHT-1 off my films, but stropping them will improve the edge to pass at least HTT-2 and all the way to HHT-3/HHT-4 (but as I said, I feel it is still far away from what a DE blade does to my hair). The razors also treetop arm hair effortlessly, the hairs are flying all over with a loud ping on the first touch. I've also had great results using Dovo green, red and black pastes, which, applied on balsa, have effortlessly restored my edges on those razors that once were sold to me as shave-ready. I have never really understood what stropping does to my edge, perhaps because the shave hasn't improved with it (chin is still troublematic). But honing has demonstrated to me that stropping indeed has an effect to the edge as it improves the HHT.

There is certainly some improvement to be made when it comes to the sharpness (or whatever is the right word) of my razors. Will it ever be possible to make them "aggressively sharp" like my DE blade? I believe so, how else they will outperform my cartridge blades? Technigue cannot explain everything in this regard, the edge must be sharp to cut the whiskers in the first place.

But is sharpness the whole picture? I wouldn't bother to send my razors yet again to a honemeister just to observe that they are still not performing my sharpness tests nor my shave test noticeably better.

Should I try shaving after a steam bath, just to see if it is all about the preparation of the whiskers? Like many beginners, I also have tough beard on my chin. I still believe so after all these years

Or, being semi-serious already, should I just give up? Shaving with straight razor is coolest of cool and I would like to finally master that skill. I refuse to believe that straight razor absolutely must give discomfort, tug and pull whenever it comes near the whiskers of my chin.

 

[steveclarkus]

It would be a shame to give up after you have learned to hone especially just because of your chin. The chin is actually quite easy once you figure it out. In the beginning, perhaps you could use both hands keeping the extra one on the toe. Tighten the skin by rolling the lower lip over your teeth then holding the blade at a tight angle pull down. Get the whiskers at the edge of your lip by turning the razor over and doing the opposite. Just stretch your lip across your lower teeth. By controlling the toe you will have complete control of the blad and no risk of cutting yourself. Once you get this down, you’re off to the razes. I still use this method for the edge of my lower lip.

 

[global_dev]

@monco
i suggest finding a member here to send your “best” honed blade who will take a look at the edge, make sure its good and maybe shave with it to see if its the edge.

where are you located?

do you have a “unique” chin?

 

[Twelvefret]

It would be a shame to give up after you have learned to hone especially just because of your chin. The chin is actually quite easy once you figure it out. In the beginning, perhaps you could use both hands keeping the extra one on the toe. Tighten the skin by rolling the lower lip over your teeth then holding the blade at a tight angle pull down. Get the whiskers at the edge of your lip by turning the razor over and doing the opposite. Just stretch your lip across your lower teeth. By controlling the toe you will have complete control of the blad and no risk of cutting yourself. Once you get this down, you’re off to the razes. I still use this method for the edge of my lower lip.

Good advice from @steveclarkus. To shave the chin or any rounded areas, I learned to roll the razor in my fingers. Three very light passes is better than one.

 

[MO1]

Do you use pasted balsa strops with diamonds as that is the finishing part of slash mccoys method?
To me it sounds that your edge isnt smooth enough, especially if tree topping makes a loud ping and makes the hairs fly. That to me would not be a pleasant edge.
If you have some crox, atleast try it, it can smooth out an edge more than you think.

 

[monco]

Thanks for your advice, gentlemen!

Frankly, I'm hesitating to send my razors to be honed since I've walked that path already, even though that was some time ago.

But stropping with crox or diamond pastes would be something easy to try. If that doesn't work, then well, gotta find a local honemeister. But I'll first try to fix things myself as I am already this far and feel that my honing is already getting close, and, judging by HHT, I haven't completely ruined my pre-honed shave-ready razors yet, either.

I only have Dovo pastes, green, red and black and I am using them on balsa (seems to work great!). I know that black is something like 1 micron at most, not finer, so there is probably improvement to be made (gotta wonder, though, how some people manage to get a "shaveable" edge off hones like Norton 8k!) The thing is, I am located in EU and have no idea where to order diamond pastes or chrome oxide (OTOH, Dovo pastes seem to be readily available). Probably need to order from tedpella.com from US to get the right stuff. VAT and customs should be small for such a small order.

BTW, what is "The Method" exactly? I am only aware of a long thread in this forum on how to use lapping film, and another thread on pasted balsa strops. But is there some more concise tutorial somewhere?

I don't think I have unique chin by any means, not exactly sure what unique means in this context. By chin I actually mean the entire "classic goatee" area of the chin (not including upper lip area which is okayish to shave). Something like the bearded area in this picture: https://www.baldingbeards.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/classic-goatee-1024x715.jpg.

I'll definitely try rolling the razor with two hands and see how the shave goes. Maybe that will tell me something about my technique. Thanks again, and I will keep you posted as I get over my next shave!

 

[RayClem]

I have a chin that is difficult to shave with a straight razor. My normal practice is to shave two passes with a straight razor and then do a clean-up pass with a DE razor to finish off the jawline and chin areas.

Sometimes, when foregoing the straight razor, I use a different DE razor for each pass. I know that may be unusual, but it works for me. Razors are tools; use whichever tool or combination of tools works for you.

If you like using a straight razor everywhere except your chin, there is nothing to prevent you from using a cartridge razor for a clean-up pass on your chin if you so desire.
The straight razor purists might disapprove, but that should not stop you. It is your beard, your face, and your razors. You are the only one who should determine which gives the best shave for you.

 

[Twelvefret]

BTW, what is "The Method" exactly? I am only aware of a long thread in this forum on how to use lapping film, and another thread on pasted balsa strops. But is there some more concise tutorial somewhere?

Here you go. It was written by a member.
Setting the Bevel with the Burr Method

 

[MO1]

What progression in honing do you do on your razors? Grit range of stones or lapping film?
If you finish on a fine grit stone i dont see why just the black paste would not be enough, as its similar to crox according to dovo, i think.

 

[ajduplessis]

Super sharp razor edges is critical, if they are not sharp forget about your chin.
You must map your chin into small sections (at least 6 on my chin). I make very small but deliberate strokes using left and right hands on these sections. Most of my chin strokes is not straight down.

Technique requires many direction changes and using different areas of the razor edge. There are many ways to hold a straight, learn all the grips. Follow the direction of growth WTG, imagining sculpting your chin like a fine artist. Always focus on the razor angle using NO pressure.

Proper shaving is an art to master, using different grips/strokes will quickly show significant improvements.

Also try starting with the upper lip, side of mouth first, then chin followed cheeks and neck. Do the easy stuff last.

 

[global_dev]

if they are not sharp forget about your chin.

so true.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

I have and sometimes use CrOx and the Devo Red & Black pastes and find they can significantly improve the sharpness of some edges. I use them on dedicated strops.

It sounds on the one hand like you're sharpening your razors pretty well.

On the other hand, my guess is your razors aren't sharp enough for your chin whiskers. My chin whiskers are very difficult even with a very sharp edge, but much easier as the razor is sharper as opposed to slightly or more than slightly less sharp. I'm sure different guys have different whiskers. Your chin sounds very much like it's populated with little copper wires (of whatever color the copper might be).

You've gotten great advice. There are a number of seriously good SR shavers and honers in the UK and on this forum. Some of them are very likely to find you and offer advice about the best easily available stones and such should you continue here. I'll mention this thread to a couple of UK guys I know.

Although my chin is difficult I've finally mostly figured it out.

My other problem is my neck. The whiskers are not so wiry as those of my chin and upper lip but they grow in the weirdest ways. It's much easier to smooth them completely with a safety razor which I can use at angles which so far elude me with the SR. Still, I'm getting far better comfort with the straight and socially acceptable or better neck shaves with the SR so I use only it.

I think you will, with help from members here, figure this out and master your chin.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Twelvefret]

I have and sometimes use CrOx and the Devo Red & Black pastes and find they can significantly improve the sharpness of some edges. I use them on dedicated strops.

It sounds on the one hand like you're sharpening your razors pretty well.

On the other hand, my guess is your razors aren't sharp enough for your chin whiskers. My chin whiskers are very difficult even with a very sharp edge, but much easier as the razor is sharper as opposed to slightly or more than slightly less sharp. I'm sure different guys have different whiskers. Your chin sounds very much like it's populated with little copper wires (of whatever color the copper might be).

You've gotten great advice. There are a number of seriously good SR shavers and honers in the UK and on this forum. Some of them are very likely to find you and offer advice about the best easily available stones and such should you continue here. I'll mention this thread to a couple of UK guys I know.

Although my chin is difficult I've finally mostly figured it out.

My other problem is my neck. The whiskers are not so wiry as those of my chin and upper lip but they grow in the weirdest ways. It's much easier to smooth them completely with a safety razor which I can use at angles which so far elude me with the SR. Still, I'm getting far better comfort with the straight and socially acceptable or better neck shaves with the SR so I use only it.

I think you will, with help from members here, figure this out and master your chin.

Happy shaves,

Jim

Good post, Jim.

 

[Seveneighth]

I have tough hair round the mouth and chin.

Lather is significant with straight razors in a way that it isn't with cartridge or DE razors. Straight razors are plain metal, they do not have any treatment (edge coating or baked lubrication) cutting is both about sharpness and friction / resistance to the blade passing through. Therefore the lather needs to be more hydrated. Some people find that this means wetter / thiner lather, but a good lather will soak up and hold more water. You need to work more water into the lather. Try building your lather and then repeatedly working more water in by dipping the very tips of your brush into water and then working this into your lather until the lather builds to the same volume.

Also in the same respect - for people with a really tough beard, really soaking and preparing your beard does make a difference. It's not that the blade won't cut without this, but it is more resistant. Yuu need to remove as much of the protein coating from the hair. @Clay S is the master at this. Check out his journal
Muddy's Meanderings for tips on awesome preshave methods.

How I was taught to shave the chin: you should control the angle of the razor with your hand and move your head in order to move the edge through the hair. This allows greater control of the razor's edge and allows you to roll it accurately in the way mentioned above.

Blade steel and grind is important in my opinion. A good stainless blade has more edge stability than a vintage Sheffield for instance. If I am trying to get a very high sharpness, I stick to stainless for this reason. It doesn't mean that the Sheffields aren't sharp - just that I sharpen mine differently. I don't know the razors you have, but just be careful that you aren't over-honing them.

In this light, you may find a heavier grind or a stainless steel razor more effective for your beard type. I really like both a half or quarter hollow or a stainless razor because of the way they plow through a heavy beard.

Diamond pastes are a problem in Europe - I have been caught it with poor quality. The best quality I have found is from The Invisible Edge, but it is expensive. Well I think so.

You can get good quality CrOx (0.5, 0.3 micron) and FerOx (0.1 micron) from eBay.

 

[monco]

Amazing answers again, thanks! I am hopeful a solution can be found!

As suggested, this morning I tried holding the razor with two hands for my chin. There is definitely something in this, it is much easier to keep it in correct angle, almost flat to the skin! It wasn't a total revelation, though, the edge still seems to be missing something. But I shall continue using this method for the time being, just to drop one variable off the equation.

My honing progression? Well, I have 3M lapping films (namely Film (Lapping) 3M, 261X), which I've been using with following progression: 12, 9, 5, 3, 1, 0.3. Few times I have started with 30 microns to set the bevel. Bevel setting works ok using burr method (The Method) and measuring with a cherry tomato (great, objective test, btw!). I have tried to skip 0.3 entirely, and have used paper under both 1 micron and 0.3 micron to get a smoother edge (no breakthrough here, however). I've also tried skipping the brown 5 micron film, as this has been recommended by some of the members here. Have I tried all the combinations of the parameters described above? No. But I have always been satisfied, if not surprised with the results: dull edge starts to treetop arm hair and pass HHT effortlessly. After honing with the films, the razor is hardly HHT-2 at max (but maybe strong HHT-1), and I've needed to strop it to get towards HHT-3 and HHT-4. Dunno if this means anything... Also, I've used Dovo black after the honing session to get a more refined edge and small improvement in HHT (even though I am not sure of Dovo black micron size).

This way I have honed a Wapienica, Dovo Best Quality, and a Friodur 6/8. Wapienica effortlessly took a great edge (surprise!), Dovo is just ok (spine was not quite straight to begin with but nothing serious, looks flat now), and Friodur took a seemingly great edge but the edge is somehow odd to shave with, perhaps because it is stainless, dunno. All in all, honing with lapping films has been effortless from the beginning. Of course I feel that I could improve my honing yet, as the best edges are HHT3, maybe weak or medium HHT4 at most, if you get what I mean. See, a random DE blade passes HHT much more effortlessly and aggressively, while still being technically HHT4. Friodur is closer to that DE blade but still not quite there. Then again, I understand that HHT is only a test, perhaps not most objective one, and all that. But it is the only test that tells me something, and after all, it is my hair and always the same hair, so I can at least objectively measure how the honing/stropping progresses the edge (if not counting harsh sawline edges and such). The shave test doesn't tell me much since every edge has something lacking, and should I occasionally get a smooth shave on my chin, it is newer effortless in any way, nor easily repeatable, and I always feel there is something missing.

Note also that I have nothing against stones. I just happened to buy a Norton 4/8k long time ago (when that was all the rage), and as you can guess I didn't get good shaves from the 8k, nor did I ever pass HHT to any degree with Norton. Didn't have the Dovo pastes back then. And I also happened to start my honing with a razor shaped object that proudly states "Solingen" engraved in its inferior quality steel. So I went with lapping films, was very satisfied, but here I am, still waiting for that smooth shave. Maybe there exists some magic (and not overly expensive) stone that I have been missing all this time? ILR, anyone?

Now, I've also bought some shave-ready razors from SRP marketplace some 10 to 15 years back. These were all sold to me pre-honed by SRP members so I trust they were shave-ready, although times were different back then and probably not everybody was finishing the edges with 0.1 micron diamond paste. These edges have since become somewhat dull and didn't pass HHT anymore, until I got Dovo pastes and brought them back to life. The strongest of these razors is currently perhaps my Genco Expert Extra Hollow, 6/8, being something like clear HHT4. Alas, I don't recall these shave-ready razors really solving my chin problem when I received them (otherwise I wouldn't be here writing this). Perhaps I was somehow able to shave with them but the chin was still tugging. But that was long time ago and maybe my pasted stropping cannot get these razors back to what they were.

I would like to get yet another razor, preferably a Ralf Aust 6/8 stainless. But I think I'll refrain from buying it until I get this solved, maybe I need to lay that money for hones first.

And yes, the lather and prep. Tomorrow morning it shall be a hot towel and Tabac instead of Cella. Tabac works like a dream for me and I always get that yogurt-like lather. Cella is not bad by any means but Tabac will yet again drop one variable off the equation.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

The magic stone might be a coticle.

Spoiler: This might be your problem.

Some soaps are better with the SR than others and all need extreme hydration with the SR.

I use sometimes pasted strops as final finishers after my finishing stones. I have three pasted strops and use them in this order which is the proper order. The black is not doing much other than polishing, but it still helps a bit I think.

• CrOx
• Devo Red
• Devo Black.

Red & Black is this.



I clean the blade using warm water and soap between each of these three pastes and strop on linen and leather afterwards. I also strop each razor both before each shave and after each shave.

I have no idea exactly what you're doing wrong or not doing right but you're getting lots of great advice.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[MO1]

As Chan Eli whiskers said, its hard to say what you are doing wrong.

I have not gotten around to using my dovo pastes too much yet. But this is what i do that i know works for me,
Finish the razor on a fine grit stone, finish it mostly on my coticule now,
20 laps on crox pasted cotton strop,
10 laps on FeOx,( pasted on a denim strop, anything will do imo)
50 linen, 100 leather
this leave the edge really really sharp, so sharp that i have to tone it down abit on my coticule,
Then i repeat the stropping again.
Try toning up or down the edges that seem to work, and maybe reset the bevel on your problem razors?

Hope it works for you!

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

As Chan Eli whiskers said, its hard to say what you are doing wrong.

I have not gotten around to using my dovo pastes too much yet. But this is what i do that i know works for me,
Finish the razor on a fine grit stone, finish it mostly on my coticule now,
20 laps on crox pasted cotton strop,
10 laps on FeOx,( pasted on a denim strop, anything will do imo)
50 linen, 100 leather
this leave the edge really really sharp, so sharp that i have to tone it down abit on my coticule,
Then i repeat the stropping again.
Try toning up or down the edges that seem to work, and maybe reset the bevel on your problem razors?

Hope it works for you!

Wow! An edge so sharp you have to take its sharpness down a bit on your coticle. That's impressive to me.

Could I ask how your finishing on the coticle, and otherwise using the coticle? I know coticles vary a lot and anything you tell me about your coticle may or may not apply to mine. Still...

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[MO1]

Wow! An edge so sharp you have to take its sharpness down a bit on your coticle. That's impressive to me.

Could I ask how your finishing on the coticle, and otherwise using the coticle? I know coticles vary a lot and anything you tell me about your coticle may or may not apply to mine. Still...

Happy shaves,

Jim

I have no direct method to it, if i feel like my edge wants to cut anything in its path (more like see, as i get small blood spots, cant really feel it until afterwards when i rinse my face)
Then i move onto water on the coticule and do maybe 5 Max 10 laps. If i dont want to tone it down too much i usually go to oil on my coticule.
I dont know what the oil does on a coticule but it is a really nice way to finish it.
Im still experimenting, but i have gotten consistent results with that method.

 

[Rusty Blade]

When I first started with a SR I had some trouble with my chin. I started doing a first pass on my chin with a DE and then a second pass with a SR. Eventually when I developed muscle memory I could shave my chin with a SR no problem.