Looking at the differences I wonder if it is not a screw up on whoever Muhle uses for their casting. It could be something as dumb as the initial mold may have been sized incorrectly or not designed to accommodate pattern die shrinkage after casting. The new version may be what Muhle intended in the first place
R41 new version ?
- Thread starter bobusa
- Start date
Interesting thought. I always wondered why they would make this razor such that it was impossible for the cap, blade and guard to all touch the face at the same time, which any other (I think) razor could do. As such, there really was no guard on this razor, unless you shaved with a really large angle, which would put the guard and blade on the skin, without the cap. Of course, I could be totally wrong on all this.
Mühle is not a company that would make that kind of QC mistake. No, it was designed that way. As much as it is loved by many, it was simply too much for some. The company has a history of quietly introducing improvements and refinements in its products, and the V2 synthetic brushes and new R41 are examples that customers noticed.
I tried the refined R41 for the first time this morning. I'll need at least one more day to firm up my impressions. So far, it seems every bit as aggressive/effective as the original 2011 release. The modifications seem geared toward making it easier and safer to use, and towards eliminating any blade flex that was sometimes noted with thinner blades. I was concerned that it might have features that reduced its effectiveness, but that doesn't appear to be the case at all. I tried three passes today, instead of my usual four, and still received a fine BBS shave.
More on this tomorrow.
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OK, I've put my blade tests briefly on hold and had a shave with the new 2013 R41. I used an Indian 7 O'Clock Black, as that's a blade that works well in the 2011 R41 for me. For the soap, I used MWF applied with a New Forest 2-band.
And... it still feels like an R41.
The only real difference to me was that I couldn't get the shallower angle that I prefer with the old R41 - but the angle I could get worked very well. I felt I missed the shallow angle on the ATG pass most, especially on the upper lip where I always feel a little trepidation with an R41. But all in all, it worked fine. I briefly tried steeper angles too, and I can actually get a wider range of angles than I'd originally thought when I did my head shave - but steep angles don't work for me, so that was just a test.
The result was a very good BBS, and the typical "glow" feel that I get from an R41 - but no nicks and no weepers. My skin felt good after a cold splash, and then my splash of Floïd Blue gave noticeably more sting than usual - again typical of an R41 shave.
Overall, the aggression seems pretty much the same as the old one, and it really does feel like the same razor. The new one will probably be a bit more forgiving of poor technique and errors, but it's no FaTip on that score. It's not like a starving Rottweiler - think of it more as one that had a light snack the day before yesterday.
And... it still feels like an R41.
The only real difference to me was that I couldn't get the shallower angle that I prefer with the old R41 - but the angle I could get worked very well. I felt I missed the shallow angle on the ATG pass most, especially on the upper lip where I always feel a little trepidation with an R41. But all in all, it worked fine. I briefly tried steeper angles too, and I can actually get a wider range of angles than I'd originally thought when I did my head shave - but steep angles don't work for me, so that was just a test.
The result was a very good BBS, and the typical "glow" feel that I get from an R41 - but no nicks and no weepers. My skin felt good after a cold splash, and then my splash of Floïd Blue gave noticeably more sting than usual - again typical of an R41 shave.
Overall, the aggression seems pretty much the same as the old one, and it really does feel like the same razor. The new one will probably be a bit more forgiving of poor technique and errors, but it's no FaTip on that score. It's not like a starving Rottweiler - think of it more as one that had a light snack the day before yesterday.
Who knows...Muhle is not saying anything out right on their website and they have said there has been no change or refinement to inquiries. Only the Shadow knows...the rest is hyperbole and conjecture
Glad to hear that they seem to have kept the essential character of the 2011 model, which really is special and unique. And gotta love the Rottweiler simile -- "a light snack the day before yesterday"!
Apparently Toddster got an affirmative response from Muhle. "We are not aware of any changes" from an employee at a US office does not equal "no"
I think for tomorrow's shave, I'm going to use the original R41 on one side and the refined R41 on the other (same handle, new blade, etc) to see if I can detect any difference in aggressiveness or shave quality.
Does anyone remember the business card test that Gillette used years ago (hold it perpendicular to the face and draw it ATG to listen for differences in the closeness)? I have no idea if it will work with a true BBS shave! We'll find out tomorrow.
Does anyone remember the business card test that Gillette used years ago (hold it perpendicular to the face and draw it ATG to listen for differences in the closeness)? I have no idea if it will work with a true BBS shave! We'll find out tomorrow.
I believe the Muhle R41 is meant to be used (as is any other razor) with blade and guard making contact with the skin. The guard determines the blade angle and blade gap. There is some room for play, but the cap is primarily meant for safety and to provide blade flex. This is just my opinion, but it is one that I am fairly confident about.
Codfish, I agree with this. In fact, shortly after the newly designed 2011 R41 came out, B&B did an interesting interview with Andreas Müller (co-GM of Mühle) where he clearly says that the designs of the R41 were the result of market research and testing. In other words, the design was very intentional. You may find the article informative, though I bet you've already read it
Edit: here's the link to the Andreas Müller interview.
I believe the Muhle R41 is meant to be used (as is any other razor) with blade and guard making contact with the skin. The guard determines the blade angle and blade gap. There is some room for play, but the cap is primarily meant for safety and to provide blade flex. This is just my opinion, but it is one that I am fairly confident about.
Codfish, I agree with this. In fact, shortly after the newly designed 2011 R41 came out, B&B did an interesting interview with Andreas Müller (co-GM of Mühle) where he clearly says that the designs of the R41 were the result of market research and testing. In other words, the design was very intentional. You may find the article informative, though I bet you've already read it
Edit: here's the link to the Andreas Müller interview.
I don't think it's possible to have both the cap and guard of the R41 making contact with the skin, as the blade protrudes too far out. If you look at the picture on the last page and put a straight edge touching both the cap and the guard, the blade would be deep into the skin.
But skin flexes, a straightedge doesn't.
Remember, straight razors have no cap and no guard, and you can get a very decent shave with a fair amount of pressure.
I agree, that's what allows the play in blade angles that Oscroft is saying worked well for him at times (being able to use a shallower blade angle when he wants to).
My point in my previous post (which I guess I didn't explain well) is that I think the razor is designed so that the intended blade angle is achieved when the guard and the blade make contact with skin - as opposed to the cap and the blade, or all three the guard, blade, and cap. So, the guard dictates blade angle and blade gap, the cap is somewhat irrelevant other than for avoiding deeper bites from miscues.
I'm familiar with the interview since I wrote it. I discovered Mühle in 2010 during the course of doing research on aggressive DEs, and placed an early order. I posted the first review of the R41 that summer. Looking back over the review today, I still wouldn't change a word.Codfish, I agree with this. In fact, shortly after the newly designed 2011 R41 came out, B&B did an interesting interview with Andreas Müller (co-GM of Mühle) where he clearly says that the designs of the R41 were the result of market research and testing. In other words, the design was very intentional. You may find the article informative, though I bet you've already read it
Edit: here's the link to the Andreas Müller interview.
Yes, the design was deliberate. The R41 was well-received in the U.S. (even if a bit controversial), but the reception in Europe was not as positive. It seems that truly aggressive DEs are not as popular in and around Mühle's home country. Andreas and Christian Müller both mention in interviews that they monitor shave sites, and there is a lot of evidence that they do. At the time I interviewed him, Andreas admitted that the razor was "not for everyone", and recommended it primarily to experienced shavers.
I am not surprised that they saw user comments (both positive and negative) and took steps to address users' issues. Mühle's strengths, in my opinion, are in the areas of design, innovation and engineering. I continue to follow them closely, as one of my areas of interest. I am eager to continue testing this new offering and to post my findings in a new review.
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Sorry--I misread your original post (you explained it fine). What you say makes sense, although I personally felt more comfortable using the more shallow angle dictated by the cap and blade.
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I'm perplexed by those that think the Mariner is more aggressive than the '11 R41 but this hobby is certainly YMMV. Looking forward to my '13 R41!
I've used the Mariner and agree with you. To me, it falls into a second level of aggressiveness--along with the Joris and ATT Atlas/Titan ("H" base plate). The R41 2011 is still at the top, IMO.
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anyone know if the new r41 grande will be available in rose gold or just the standard version? and can someone tell me which they prefer and why the standard style or the grande??
I prefer the Grande over the standard version due to the size of the handle. Think of the Merkur HD vs. the Merkur 38C, same head, different handles,weight. I like the feel and heft of larger de's and brushes. I too am awaiting a rose-gold Grande version.
marty
My Mariner is certainly as aggressive as my '11 R41, if not more so. And the weight of the Mariner head makes it harder to control, leading to more errors/bloodshed for me. (Using a heavier handle doesn't help much.) That said, I wonder if some Mariners are more aggressive than others due to QC issues. I say this in part because my Mariner has other QC issues (having to do with the finish), and because whenever I shave with it I have to wonder whether anyone could intentionally have produced a razor that handles so awkwardly and unpredictably. Or, who knows, maybe NY Shaving Co. made stealth "refinements" to the design without telling anyone?
LOL! Maybe indeed.
I was not overly impressed with the Mariner, either in it's design or construction. I remember a few years ago I tried the Parker 91R. I thought it was pretty darn aggressive, but a member whose evaluation skills I respected thought it was mild. I concluded we were probably both right, given Parker's horrendous quality control at the time.
Maybe the Mariner is made under similar conditions. Maybe it has been quietly "refined." Maybe it's a real-life variation of Schrödinger's cat.
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