I have used all of the really aggressive razors - R41, Fatip, Tradere, 39C Slant, Vision (highest setting), etc, but find my Joris (and my previous Joris as well) gives the closest shave of them all. It isn't as irritating as the R41, but it shaves closer. It is the only razor that consistently gives me a BBS shave in two passes. So I wonder why all of the comments I have seen on this forum describe it a "medium aggressive" razor. Is it because people assume that "irritating" equals "aggressive"?
Why does my Joris shave closer than my R41?
- Thread starter vocalistbob
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Well first the term "aggressive" doesn't really mean anything, and if it does have any meaning it's completely and utterly subjective. I think you just have to dispense with the term when comparing razors...it's more or less useless except when comparing the extremes.
Now as to why the majority view the R41 as shaving closer, I have a theory. I think the "best" blade angle to get good effective close shaves varies from person to person, based on hair type, skin type, and probably a host of other factors. Razors that provide a broader range of angles where the blade makes contact with your skin will naturally have more satisfied shavers, as it is more likely that one can use the "right" angle for their beard (and in fact that angle may vary over different parts of the face, or even different number of days of growth). The Fatip (and Joris), having a little less blade exposure has a little bit narrower angle range (not a huge difference, but definitely reduced range), so you accommodate a smaller population. Remember, we're talking about getting *close* here. Any razor will get you down to DFS (and probably BBS with enough passes)...but getting really close, in a small number of passes, is a different story. Getting the blade to bite on those little tiny hairs that are just exposed from the hair follicle is a tricky business, and I think very susceptible to even small changes in a razor's head geometry, and how the skin folds over that, as well as the range of blade angles. I'm not surprised at all that there are widely varying opinions on which does a better job, and your view is no exception. For you, the Joris has that magic combination, for others...less so.
Now as to why the majority view the R41 as shaving closer, I have a theory. I think the "best" blade angle to get good effective close shaves varies from person to person, based on hair type, skin type, and probably a host of other factors. Razors that provide a broader range of angles where the blade makes contact with your skin will naturally have more satisfied shavers, as it is more likely that one can use the "right" angle for their beard (and in fact that angle may vary over different parts of the face, or even different number of days of growth). The Fatip (and Joris), having a little less blade exposure has a little bit narrower angle range (not a huge difference, but definitely reduced range), so you accommodate a smaller population. Remember, we're talking about getting *close* here. Any razor will get you down to DFS (and probably BBS with enough passes)...but getting really close, in a small number of passes, is a different story. Getting the blade to bite on those little tiny hairs that are just exposed from the hair follicle is a tricky business, and I think very susceptible to even small changes in a razor's head geometry, and how the skin folds over that, as well as the range of blade angles. I'm not surprised at all that there are widely varying opinions on which does a better job, and your view is no exception. For you, the Joris has that magic combination, for others...less so.
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Very well thought out theory, I must say, tho I am not certain it explains fully his experience.
In my experience the R41 is more effective (closer shaves) than my fatip (and the joris, I presume, since I don't have one) due to its greater blade exposure and effective range of angles. Without knowing some other facts I can only conclude at this time (as I cannot believe the R41 cannot shave the same if not better than another DE) that his experience may probably be due to his inexperience with the R41. For some of us, it has taken us a bit longer to be proficient with R41, and that is with constant use.
When i started out with R41, I could get the same shaving results with either R41 and merkur HD. At times the merkur gave better and less irritating shaves. But now that I am an experienced R41 user, there is no way my HD can duplicate the clean and longer lasting R41 shave.
In my experience the R41 is more effective (closer shaves) than my fatip (and the joris, I presume, since I don't have one) due to its greater blade exposure and effective range of angles. Without knowing some other facts I can only conclude at this time (as I cannot believe the R41 cannot shave the same if not better than another DE) that his experience may probably be due to his inexperience with the R41. For some of us, it has taken us a bit longer to be proficient with R41, and that is with constant use.
When i started out with R41, I could get the same shaving results with either R41 and merkur HD. At times the merkur gave better and less irritating shaves. But now that I am an experienced R41 user, there is no way my HD can duplicate the clean and longer lasting R41 shave.
I am able to get the same BBS shave using either an R41 or a Gillette Tech. The finished shave all boils down to technique and the shaver's ability and consistency. After doing the same repetitive task day after day, month after month, year after year, decade after decade, you sort of get the idea of what you need to do.
http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/284877-The-absurdity-of-Aggressive-VS-Mild
To respond to the OP's comments: All of the razors you mention (with the exception of the Vision which even wide open is rather mild) put a fair amount of blade out front for you to use. They all have a wide "sweet spot" so it is easier to get a close shave with them as opposed to razors that are more narrow in their proper angle of use.
What you are experiencing may be something as simple as the difference in handles or the difference in the overall weight of the razor. If one handle fits your hand better and allows you to maintain the correct angle for the razor that may be enough to tip the edge in the head that is attached to it. You might want to swap the handle out with your other 3 piece razor heads and see if your shave improves using that handle.
Very good points, and yes what I said doesn't necessarily explain the OP's actual experience. If the blade angle is one of the key factors, it does follow, as you said, that the R41 should be able to mimic what the Fatip does. Whether it actually can or not, is tough to say with authority. I'm sure I don't have a complete grasp on all of the subtle factors that lead to a different shaving outcome, as I think it's a pretty complicated process when you look at the details. My experience follows yours though, in that I can "simulate" other razors with the R41, just by varying the angle and pressure. In terms of absolute results though, it doesn't work the other way. I can get closest with the R41...it's just got the range of "knobs" necessary to eek out that last bit of closeness. I feel the same way when shaving with a straight (but slightly more "protected" with the R41).
To add to Turtle's comment, how many days of growth are people using their razors on? Surprisingly, no one seems to ever mention this. I generally find that if I have 2-3 days growth, I can get a very close shave with any of my DE's, even "mild" razors like the EJ DE89. But if I'm trying to shave every day, then that's a whole different story. I find that with only 1 day of facial hair growth, my EJ DE89 is utterly insufficient. I think this is where "aggressive" razors like the R41 shine because of more blade exposure.
Of the OP's list, I've only ever tried the R41. I gave it up on the BST though because despite the nice shaves, every now and then I'd have an irritating one. I've moved past BBS to DFS and am looking for a replacement. Maybe I'll try the Fatip.
Of the OP's list, I've only ever tried the R41. I gave it up on the BST though because despite the nice shaves, every now and then I'd have an irritating one. I've moved past BBS to DFS and am looking for a replacement. Maybe I'll try the Fatip.
I shave every day. I also rotate a different razor and brand of blade every day as well as using a different cream/soap and AS/EDC every day too. I will admit to using the Tradere for the past 2 days in a row (different brand of blade each day though). It was just too sweet to put away for a month and wait its turn with everyone else.
If you haven't tried one of the Merkur slants you might give them some thought. They are nice razors and will surprise you.
Honestly, I personally think that at least some of the popularity of the R41 can be explained by male macho thinking along the lines of maximum aggressiveness = maximum manliness. (my Exhibit A is every video ever made where some dude sharpens his axe/machete/kabar/lawnmower/bat'leth enough to shave with it)
The only ranking system for razors that makes any sense or has any usefulness at all, imho, is how well they work FOR YOU! From your OP, it looks like your Joris is your best razor. For me it's been the Weber DLC so far, though my week-old Tradere is looking like it's going to take over the top spot.
Besides, if you start putting too much importance in aggressiveness, there's only one logical place to end up: straights.
The only ranking system for razors that makes any sense or has any usefulness at all, imho, is how well they work FOR YOU! From your OP, it looks like your Joris is your best razor. For me it's been the Weber DLC so far, though my week-old Tradere is looking like it's going to take over the top spot.
Besides, if you start putting too much importance in aggressiveness, there's only one logical place to end up: straights.
True, and that's a good thing
. If you can drive an unguarded blade around your face, you can drive any DE around your face with even more precision and skill (particularly with regard to doing so without injury or irritation).
Congrats on finding the razor that works best for you! Enjoy and do not worry about all the hype regarding anything!
True, and that's a good thing
I must be an outlier, love the smoothness of straights, found myself unable to appreciate the fun of an R41.
The Joris is a aggressive razor with a perfectly balanced handle that makes it the best OC besides the similar Fatip
+1.
I have found that the Tradere handle on the FaTip head is a pretty close approximation of the Joris. Both are superb razors that give close, clean, smooth shaves.
As already mentioned by other members it all boils down to personal preference and the good ole over used YMMV motto. I use the FaTip (same head as the Joris) with a BRW BM deluxe XXL as well as the R41 with the same handle and although both give me a similar shave, the FaTip gives me tons of irritation. I can feel the blade on the R41 MUCH more than the FaTip and the R41 will easily slice you up if you aren't vigilant, I find the FaTip is less precarious but I still end up feeling more "raw" after a FaTip shave...go figure. I've only been using it for a few weeks so maybe I still need to sample more blades in it.
There is no universal answer to your question..you'll need to just try it and find out for yourself.
hello to all members of B&B
i am a bit confused as a lot of people have said in several threads and posts that muhle r41 2011 shaves closer than joris even with a slight margin
at last which of them definetely shaves closer?
warmest regards
This says it all. Enjoy the Joris!
Does the tradere OC share a common head with the joris and the fatip as well? I really like the tradere handle, but wAnt the joris/fatip head.
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