Which stone grits do I need? 1000, 2000 and 4000?
- Thread starter ceriano
- Start date
I use a Naniwa 12k synthetic or a hard JNAT (Nakayama Asagi or Ozuku) to finish/touch up my straights, and these stones produce a finish that will pop hairs on HHT and is as sharp as I prefer.
Everyone is different, but I do not want my edges sharper than these stones will produce. And do not underestimate the importance of stropping on leather in finishing your edges.
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Everyone is different, but I do not want my edges sharper than these stones will produce. And do not underestimate the importance of stropping on leather in finishing your edges.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Typically, for straight razors a 1000 grit stone is used for setting bevels. Once the bevel is properly set, you will rarely or ever need that stone again unless you hone professionally. Stones in the 2K - 5K range are typically considered intermediate stones. They are used to remove the scratches in the bevel left over by the 1K stone. Again, they are only needed when you set the bevel.
Stones rated from 8K an up are used for finishing stones. I have a really coarse beard and sensitive skin, so I want an edge that is very sharp and very smooth. Thus, for me, 8K-10 K stones are also intermediate stones used on the way to even finer stones.
For most people 12K stones are the minimum acceptable level for finishing. There are a number of international system used for measuring the grit levels of ultra fine abrasive. Perhaps the least confusing method is to use micron size of the abrasive. Thus, if you look at the micron size, a Shapton glass 16K has the same grit size (about 1 micron) as a Naniwa 12K SuperStone. Likewise, a Shapton glass 30 K stone (0.49 micron) and a Suehiro Gokumyo 20K stone (0.50 micron) are similar, even though the Shapton stone looks like a finer grit base on its 30K rating.
Many natural stones are given an approximate grit rating based upon a scratch pattern comparison with Naniwa Superstones. However, technically, that is incorrect and can be quite misleading. For example, Arkansas stones are novaculite. They do not have a very fine grit rating. However, a highly polished Arkansas black or translucent can be used to produce a great edge if you have patience. You can purchase inexpensive Chinese Guangxi hones that are often rated as 12k stones, but as natural stones, the performance will vary. Some will produce a nice edge, others less so. However, such variability is not limited to the Chinese stones. All natural stones vary from one stone to the next. Only if you purchase stones from a source that diligently evaluates their rocks and separates those that are suitable for finishing razors can you be assured to get a good one.
I even know of one guy whose wife was of Japanese descent. When she was visiting Japan, she purchased a $500 Japanese natural (JNAT) which many people love for razor finishing. However, he never could get a decent razor edge from that stone, so he sold it. That is the risk you take with natural stones. Some are wonderful, some less so. It might have been a great hone for sharpening a Katana.
My favorite razor finishing stones are a Suehiro 20K synthetic, Greek Vermio stone, South African Sulu Grey stone, and an Imperia La Roccia stone of unknown origin. Although I got a good ILR stone, there is much controversy with those stones. I would place my best finishers at the 15K estimated grit level and finer. I have a Shapton glass 16K, but it is not one of my favorites. I find it similar to my Naniwa 12K. It produces a sharp edge, but not necessarily a smooth one. If use the Naniwa 12K or Shapton 16K and follow up with one of my other finishers, I can get a very sharp, very smooth edge.
I have a modern day Thuringen hone as well. I consider it to be the equivalent of a 10K stone which many would find suitable for finishing, but I need a finer hone. Vintage Escher stones are Thuringen stones and are considered great finishing hones, but modern day Thuringens, although coming from the same general area, are not the same as Eschers, unfortunately.
Stones rated from 8K an up are used for finishing stones. I have a really coarse beard and sensitive skin, so I want an edge that is very sharp and very smooth. Thus, for me, 8K-10 K stones are also intermediate stones used on the way to even finer stones.
For most people 12K stones are the minimum acceptable level for finishing. There are a number of international system used for measuring the grit levels of ultra fine abrasive. Perhaps the least confusing method is to use micron size of the abrasive. Thus, if you look at the micron size, a Shapton glass 16K has the same grit size (about 1 micron) as a Naniwa 12K SuperStone. Likewise, a Shapton glass 30 K stone (0.49 micron) and a Suehiro Gokumyo 20K stone (0.50 micron) are similar, even though the Shapton stone looks like a finer grit base on its 30K rating.
Many natural stones are given an approximate grit rating based upon a scratch pattern comparison with Naniwa Superstones. However, technically, that is incorrect and can be quite misleading. For example, Arkansas stones are novaculite. They do not have a very fine grit rating. However, a highly polished Arkansas black or translucent can be used to produce a great edge if you have patience. You can purchase inexpensive Chinese Guangxi hones that are often rated as 12k stones, but as natural stones, the performance will vary. Some will produce a nice edge, others less so. However, such variability is not limited to the Chinese stones. All natural stones vary from one stone to the next. Only if you purchase stones from a source that diligently evaluates their rocks and separates those that are suitable for finishing razors can you be assured to get a good one.
I even know of one guy whose wife was of Japanese descent. When she was visiting Japan, she purchased a $500 Japanese natural (JNAT) which many people love for razor finishing. However, he never could get a decent razor edge from that stone, so he sold it. That is the risk you take with natural stones. Some are wonderful, some less so. It might have been a great hone for sharpening a Katana.
My favorite razor finishing stones are a Suehiro 20K synthetic, Greek Vermio stone, South African Sulu Grey stone, and an Imperia La Roccia stone of unknown origin. Although I got a good ILR stone, there is much controversy with those stones. I would place my best finishers at the 15K estimated grit level and finer. I have a Shapton glass 16K, but it is not one of my favorites. I find it similar to my Naniwa 12K. It produces a sharp edge, but not necessarily a smooth one. If use the Naniwa 12K or Shapton 16K and follow up with one of my other finishers, I can get a very sharp, very smooth edge.
I have a modern day Thuringen hone as well. I consider it to be the equivalent of a 10K stone which many would find suitable for finishing, but I need a finer hone. Vintage Escher stones are Thuringen stones and are considered great finishing hones, but modern day Thuringens, although coming from the same general area, are not the same as Eschers, unfortunately.
- Thread starter
- #5
wow this is fantastic information thank you very much. Out the stones you mentioned if I was to get only one which one would you recommend?
Usually anything above 8k grit I use strop and compound for my knives.
For me 12k is the minimum. I have shaved off of an 8k though and didn't die.
Everyone who hones razors on stones, needs a finishing stone, so I would say start with a good finishing stone. Now which one? A great big hard JNAT for $300 to $1000 would be great, but if you don't want to spend that kind of money, a 12k synthetic stone is a good place to start - like a Naniwa Super Stone 12000. There are other synthetic 12k stones, but the Naniwa gets a fair amount of love/respect. BTW, you can get a high quality JNAT for closer to $100, but the stone will be on the smaller side.
If you want to set bevels, I'd suggest the Shapton Pro 1.5k. The 1k Pro is adequate but softer and grainier and having used both side by side I can say the 1.5k is a superior stone for that slot.
The 4k Glass is nice, follows the 1.5k well. But it's not a finisher.
If you get the 8k Glass to follow the 4k, and you want to use Chromox on a strop to finish, that will get you enough sharpness. You can prob use a paste after the 4k but the edge might not be stellar.
Sharp is one thing, smooth is another story ...
Pro 1.5k, Pro 5k, Glass 10k is a nice, functional, but admittedly austere set up.
Or, Pro 1.5k, Glass 4k, Glass 10k. I just used that progression the other night actually. Sometimes I sub the Glass 6k in for the 4k.
The 4k Glass is nice, follows the 1.5k well. But it's not a finisher.
If you get the 8k Glass to follow the 4k, and you want to use Chromox on a strop to finish, that will get you enough sharpness. You can prob use a paste after the 4k but the edge might not be stellar.
Sharp is one thing, smooth is another story ...
Pro 1.5k, Pro 5k, Glass 10k is a nice, functional, but admittedly austere set up.
Or, Pro 1.5k, Glass 4k, Glass 10k. I just used that progression the other night actually. Sometimes I sub the Glass 6k in for the 4k.
- Thread starter
- #9
Where can I find JNAT under $100?
There is a learning curve to understanding and buying JNATs, and I am only at the beginning. I learned a lot by reading the last couple of years of posts on Show us your Japanese Natural Whetstones - https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/threads/show-us-your-japanese-natural-whetstones.180558/.
Until you learn more about JNATs, I would only buy from a seller known to be reputable. And it may take time (like weeks) before a stone that satisfies your requirements becomes available. Think of JNATs like subways/trains - there will always be another JNAT, but you may need to wait a bit.
Not sure if I can post links to sellers, but I will PM you links to three sellers: Alex at JapanStones (who seems to be taking a sabbatical from selling stones online), Keith on Etsy, and Maksim at JNS. There are many other sellers, especially on eBay.
You can also learn a lot about JNATs by reading the articles on Alex's site, Keith's personal site, and Maksim's site.
Until you learn more about JNATs, I would only buy from a seller known to be reputable. And it may take time (like weeks) before a stone that satisfies your requirements becomes available. Think of JNATs like subways/trains - there will always be another JNAT, but you may need to wait a bit.
Not sure if I can post links to sellers, but I will PM you links to three sellers: Alex at JapanStones (who seems to be taking a sabbatical from selling stones online), Keith on Etsy, and Maksim at JNS. There are many other sellers, especially on eBay.
You can also learn a lot about JNATs by reading the articles on Alex's site, Keith's personal site, and Maksim's site.
My only experience is with manufactured stones. Finishing with 12k Naniwa SS is producing consistent results for me. Combined with stropping on CroOx and leather, I’m finding the end results both sharp and smooth. A simple setup for me and all my razors go through the same routine. I’m curious about natural stones though and the different results offered.
Lately I've been going from start to finish with:
a Norton 4k/8k combo stone,
an ILR finishing stone,
0.3 micron crox on balsa,
0.1 micron diamond on balsa,
leather strop.
a Norton 4k/8k combo stone,
an ILR finishing stone,
0.3 micron crox on balsa,
0.1 micron diamond on balsa,
leather strop.
I've donne for a while with my first 6" coti and paste. Then found a PDSO. That would have been plenty enough to restore 2 razors and hapilly shave for the rest of my life.
You can always justify for 2 shelves full of stones and razors, but simple works too.
You can always justify for 2 shelves full of stones and razors, but simple works too.
The following full sequence works well for me: Suehiro 1k/3k synth combo > coticule used with water only > purple Welsh slate used with sewing machine oil. Fine, red polka-dotted DMT used with up-and-down (not side-to-side or X-) strokes for shaping or removing visible chips. A return to the Welsh slate or a pasted strop for touch-ups.
I have Shapton Glass 1k HR, then 4k HR then 8k HC, then Naniwa 12k.
Sometimes I'll go further and go to diamond pasted balsa .5 micron then .25 then .1
What I'm starting to do now is, after all the above, gently overwrite the bevel with the finish from a natural, a jnat or black ark or even a coti. The idea is to add a more comfy finish, but not so much (especially with the coti) as to lose the keenness of the edge. This is just experimenting and playing around right now....
Sometimes I'll go further and go to diamond pasted balsa .5 micron then .25 then .1
What I'm starting to do now is, after all the above, gently overwrite the bevel with the finish from a natural, a jnat or black ark or even a coti. The idea is to add a more comfy finish, but not so much (especially with the coti) as to lose the keenness of the edge. This is just experimenting and playing around right now....
There's another member here who pointed out, and I think I agree with him, that you could get away with only two shaptons, the 2k HR and 6K HC
The HR designation means it is made to cut more aggressively, so even though it has the fineness of 2k, it can actually bevel set, something we have previously only used 1k for.
So 2k HR for all the bottom half. And I think this hone would also be good for sharpening kitchen cutlery.
The HR designation means it is made to cut more aggressively, so even though it has the fineness of 2k, it can actually bevel set, something we have previously only used 1k for.
So 2k HR for all the bottom half. And I think this hone would also be good for sharpening kitchen cutlery.
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