What's functional, excessive, and nice for hones?

[bluefoxicy]

I'm looking at eBay and realizing I can get some decent hones, including:

• 1000/6000 grit Japanese "King" stones
• 3000, 5000, 6000, 8000, and 10000 grit Naniwa
• Chinese 12k for cheap

So I'm thinking of multiple configurations here:

• 12k, $23, Chinese natural

Do I need more than that to maintain an edge on an already-honed razor?

• 6000/1000, $40, King synthetic
• 12k, $23, Chinese natural

1000 bevel set, 6000 sharpening, 12000 polish. Is that enough for serious sharpening of factory sharp blades and antiques that need a bevel reset? That comes to $63...

• 6000/1000, $40, King synthetic
• 3000, $43, Naniwa synthetic
• 8000, $60, Takenoko synthetic
• 12k, $23, Chinese natural

$166, a full set. 1000, 3000, 6000, 8000, 12000, bevel set and various speeds of sharpening and polishing. Is this really necessary?

I guess I don't really know, do you actually need something below 6000 (say, Norton 4k, or a 3k Naniwa) to actually sharpen the blade; and do you need something around 8000 to make the edge sharper before polishing around it with the 12k Chinese?

I'd imagine fast-cutting stones would leave a coarse edge, knocking metal off in chunks determined by the grit size, preventing the very edge of the blade from going below a minimum thickness (as then pieces of metal would break off the edge, making it thicker again).

Conversely, slow-cutting stones would take metal away slowly, eventually bringing the thickness of the very edge down further. So of course, moving from a high grit to low grit puts a sharper edge on.

The question I have, I guess, focuses on the move from 1k to 6k, and 6k to 12k. If it takes 6 days of 6 hour a day work on a 6k hone to make a fine blade edge, whereas it would take 2 hours on a 3k hone and then an hour on a 6k hone to create the same edge; then a 3k hone is necessary if you're redoing a bevel. Similarly, moving to a slow cutting 12k would be more effective off an 8k or 10k than a 6k.

Is this the actual case? As an inexperienced honer, would I benefit greatly from having a 3k, 6k, 8k progression before the 3k; rather than, say, 1k/6k and a 12k? With added experience, would this become even more beneficial or less significant?

I ask for two reasons. First off, I currently own a gently used Norton 4k/8k, which I might lap down and sell for ~$60 later (they can be had for ~$80) in favor of moving to such a progression. Perhaps I can put a better blade edge on my razor in the future, when I'm better at honing as it is and better at using the razor.

Second, I am trying to economize straight razor shavery to some degree. A set of $500 of hones makes little sense; but if we can call a $65 1k/6k/12k set "workable" that's way better than I did with an $80 4k/8k Norton.

That leaves the question of if a 1k/3k/6k/8k/12k set is actually superior in a significant way; if it is, then this leaves the question of how the progression works. Is the 3k more significant, or the 8k? Which do you buy first if you're being frugal, but looking for a little luxury and looking to improve your tool set to further those ends?

(Of course I see no reason to have 1k/3k/4k/6k/8k/12k over 1k/4k/6k/8k/12k, but I'd rather try the Japanese stones out and get a feel before espousing any gathered knowledge about such things. Losing the Norton would be only natural; although technically 1k/4k/6k/8k/12k set with the King, Norton, and C12k would come to $143 instead of $166 starting from scratch)

I'm also thinking maybe 1k/3k/6k/10k/12k, which would be 3:1 2:1 1.67:1 1.2:1 progression; whereas 1k/3k/6k/8k/12k would be 3:1 2:1 1.3:1 1.5:1. I feel the difference between the last 2 hones should be smaller than the difference between the first 2 hones? It's $4 more for a Naniwa 10k than a Takenoko 8k.

 

[Sputnik]

Are you trying to become a professional honemeister? If so, keep bracing yourself for more $$$ and more stones. If you are looking for a very decent home set-up, I seriously doubt anything over 1K/4K/8K/12K will be necessary. I am not a honemeister, but I consistently produce wickedly sharp razors with that simple set-up.

 

[bluefoxicy]

Are you trying to become a professional honemeister? If so, keep bracing yourself for more $$$ and more stones. If you are looking for a very decent home set-up, I seriously doubt anything over 1K/4K/8K/12K will be necessary. I am not a honemeister, but I consistently produce wickedly sharp razors with that simple set-up.

Just exploring and looking into more theoretical backing and more information. I think you can get a better setup than just 1k/4k/8k/12k, but maybe it's not actually significant on a small scale?

Think about the 1k/4k/8k/12k progression... 4:1, 2:1, 1.5:1. The 4k is going to cut a lot slower than the 1k correct? It may take a while to maximize the potential off it. That's a bigger time investment spent honing.

With 1k/3k/6k/10k/12k, 3:1 2:1 1.67:1 1.2:1 up the line. Moving from the bevel set (1k) to the first sharpening (3k instead of 4k) would be a bit quicker, so you'd spend less time there to get the same edge. You would, I assume, reach a point where you can't get a finer edge off the 3k, yet the 4k will produce a finer edge; but you'll reach that exact point sooner.

I'm wondering if roughly the same time investment would produce a superior blade. I'm mostly guessing at the theory behind this; although if we follow the above to its logical conclusion, the optimal stone would automatically increase in grit gradually during honing, removing metal more and more slowly. Using a Coticule with slurry and adding water periodically would do exactly that, would it not?

This may actually be an unanswerable question. A barber hone or 12k Chinese will work for blade maintenance forever if you use it properly; and plenty were getting shaves off just the Norton 4k/8k for a while, I'm told. A full restoration setup is a different animal.

 

[jkh]

The way I see it you already have a Norton 4k/8k. Get yourself a DMT 1.2k (Extra Fine) to set bevels and then add a finisher of your choice.

That should be a fabulous honing setup that will cover any honing situation except serious restoration. It seems you are looking to ditch your Norton. Is there something you don't like about it?

 

[Sputnik]

IMHO, the most important stone is 1K because it sets the bevel and the edge sharpness. The rest is just polishing. I use Norton as my 1K choice, but I have heard good things on other stones, like DMT. As they say, it is all up to you!

 

[Seraphim]

The way I see it you already have a Norton 4k/8k. Get yourself a DMT 1.2k (Extra Fine) to set bevels and then add a finisher of your choice.

That should be a fabulous honing setup that will cover any honing situation except serious restoration. It seems you are looking to ditch your Norton. Is there something you don't like about it?

This sounds good to me.

 

[Sputnik]

By the way, please keep in mind that different barber hones have different grit properties, ranging from 6K to 10K. [Swaty is about 8K.] I had an old barber hone that was messing my edge until I realized that it was about 8K, so no wonder it felt rough after Chinese 12K!

Just exploring and looking into more theoretical backing and more information. I think you can get a better setup than just 1k/4k/8k/12k, but maybe it's not actually significant on a small scale?

Think about the 1k/4k/8k/12k progression... 4:1, 2:1, 1.5:1. The 4k is going to cut a lot slower than the 1k correct? It may take a while to maximize the potential off it. That's a bigger time investment spent honing.

With 1k/3k/6k/10k/12k, 3:1 2:1 1.67:1 1.2:1 up the line. Moving from the bevel set (1k) to the first sharpening (3k instead of 4k) would be a bit quicker, so you'd spend less time there to get the same edge. You would, I assume, reach a point where you can't get a finer edge off the 3k, yet the 4k will produce a finer edge; but you'll reach that exact point sooner.

I'm wondering if roughly the same time investment would produce a superior blade. I'm mostly guessing at the theory behind this; although if we follow the above to its logical conclusion, the optimal stone would automatically increase in grit gradually during honing, removing metal more and more slowly. Using a Coticule with slurry and adding water periodically would do exactly that, would it not?

This may actually be an unanswerable question. A barber hone or 12k Chinese will work for blade maintenance forever if you use it properly; and plenty were getting shaves off just the Norton 4k/8k for a while, I'm told. A full restoration setup is a different animal.

 

[Sputnik]

By the way, meant to ask you: Do you use double-spine-taping to create an "extra" bevel, like Tom Zowada does?

This sounds good to me.

 

[Neurotopia]

This sounds good to me.

Me too. I bought more DMTs than I needed but employed them to sharpen knives and short swords. Those stones will surely cover anything not needing repair. I love my 12k only because, for 25 bucks, its a fantastic value. I added Rayman's CrOx balsa strop for another 20 and my edges are just peachy; no irritation at all, sharp as hell.

 

[Sputnik]

Do you really feel the difference with Ray-man's Balsa Strop after Chinese 12K? I usually do either 30 straight strokes or 20 straight strokes and then 20 strokes with double-spine-taping, followed by regular leather stropping. Feels really smooth, but there is always room for improvement, especially for $20! Your feedback is appreciated.

Me too. I bought more DMTs than I needed but employed them to sharpen knives and short swords. Those stones will surely cover anything not needing repair. I love my 12k only because, for 25 bucks, its a fantastic value. I added Rayman's CrOx balsa strop for another 20 and my edges are just peachy; no irritation at all, sharp as hell.

 

[bluefoxicy]

IMHO, the most important stone is 1K because it sets the bevel and the edge sharpness. The rest is just polishing. I use Norton as my 1K choice, but I have heard good things on other stones, like DMT. As they say, it is all up to you!

I thought 4k would increase edge sharpness. My razor was dull and I got it to pop arm hair entirely off a 4k.

 

[Sputnik]

If your bevel is set, then yes!

I thought 4k would increase edge sharpness. My razor was dull and I got it to pop arm hair entirely off a 4k.

 

[bluefoxicy]

It seems you are looking to ditch your Norton. Is there something you don't like about it?

I'm curious to explore other options.

I'm also more interested in technical considerations than most people; I've seen people talk about various progressions from a 1K to a Norton 4k to 8k, finishing on barber hones or moving through two diamond pastes and CrOx, etc. The depth of technical consideration I've seen here is as follows:

• Start with a coarse hone, to fix the bevel
• Grab a fine hone that's not very fine. Do some random number of strokes on it. You should have good results.
• Grab a more fine hone. Finish the edge.
• Use 4 strops with different pastes and sprays to make the edge sharp enough to shave with, because it sucks off the hone.
• Strop a thousand times on horse hide

That's ... not very scientific.

I've started with the assumption (reliable, known) that a slow cutting hone like the Chinese 12k removes metal, just in smaller quantities than a 1k Norton.

Based on this assumption, if I take a completely dull factory razor and spend several months honing it on the Chinese 12k, it should get very sharp and very shave ready. This should be functionally equivalent to starting with 1k, 4k, 8k, etc.

Jumping through a bunch of guesswork, I've come up with the following hypotheses I want to validate:

• Assume first an absolutely sharp razor with a perfect, 1 atom thick edge.
• A hone contacting the edge with an abrasive particle will remove metal.
• A large abrasive particle will tear off too much metal to create or keep an ideal edge. In other words, it breaks off enough metal from a fine edge to relatively blunt the edge.
• As the hone gets finer, the size of the edge left after said damage is smaller, and thus finer itself.
• A dull edge will converge to the same state as a sharp edge when exposed to a hone; in other words, a very non-ideal edge exposed to the same hone that dulled the ideal edge will produce an edge equivalent to the now dull edge, but sharper than the non-ideal edge originally was.

This basically means that exposure to a hone removes a certain amount of material. It will dull a very sharp edge or sharpen a dull edge; but in any case, after sufficient honing, the resulting edge is the same despite its original state.

Assuming the above, we can say the following:

• A coarse hone will produce an edge of limited keenness.
• A less coarse hone will produce a more keen edge.
• Both hones will remove metal; the coarse hone removes more metal at once.
• Thus, the use of a coarse hone only serves to quickly refine an edge to an intermediate state.

This means we can sharpen faster by moving from a more coarse hone to a more fine hone.

And that's where the details start to get fuzzy. I think the above is correct, though I may be wrong. But now I have questions:

• What impact does the prior hone have on the performance of the current hone?
• Is it possible to get a sharp edge before actually polishing the edge?

In effect, I hypothesize that you could produce an edge with lots of scratches from a more coarse hone; and then, after a few passes on the finer hone, produce an edge that's sharp, but still have those scratches in the bevel. Progression to a finer hone will sharpen the edge further; but those scratches won't buff out from the finer hone removing even less metal.

Now, it's not inconceivable that you'd have sharp points on the blade from a 1k hone, sharper than from an 8k hone. The blade would look like it has teeth, actually; and where the trenches converged at the tip, you'd have a very sharp edge. Around the trenches, you'd have thicker metal, more blunt razor edge. As you honed the edge more keen with higher grit stones, of course, the thick metal teeth would become shorter and the edges there would converge; the "teeth" would hone out, and you'd get a single, sharp, refined edge.

Unless you completely reset the bevel on your Chinese 12k, you won't remove every trace of battered, wavy edge and trenches off the 1k stone with it.

I imagine it would be faster and easier, then, to take a very coarse stone and grind more metal off with a fine stone, but not too fine. A 1k to 8k, for example, would require you to practically regrind the bevel. 1k to 2k to 8k would make this faster; 1k to 6k to 8k would also make it faster, but less so.

I also imagine the actual process with the intermediate stone (2k, 4k, 6k) is to actually regrind the bevel on the 8k. The intermediate stone would partially do the task for you, much faster than the 8k; but then reach a limit. The 6k stone will do more of the exact same work of the 8k stone in less time, in essence.

So now what? Is all this true? If so, then what are the best grit sizes to use? When we're talking very, very small particles, do we want them to be much closer together in particle size? With coarser particles, I imagine it doesn't matter quite as much, due to the amount of metal removal; maybe I'm wrong, and there's a single ratio that follows, like half (so 1k 2k 4k 8k is more optimal than 1k 3k 6k 8k).

It may not matter at all. Who knows?

 

[sproosemoose]

I like your scientific approach, I will probably have to look into this too soon. Please keep us posted

 

[bluefoxicy]

I like your scientific approach, I will probably have to look into this too soon. Please keep us posted

Yeah but I don't have electron microscopes to do edge examination so it's pretty moot unless somebody else has the answers.

 

[sproosemoose]

Yeah but I don't have electron microscopes to do edge examination so it's pretty moot unless somebody else has the answers.

I don't think you need to go that far, but you could do some controlled experiments.

 

[azmark]

Man that is a whole lot of stuff to read on a cell phone screen so Im just going to go off of your thread title.

All you need is a coticule. Maybe a finishing hone like a Nani 12K or Spyderco UF but you don't really need it if you have a coticle. If you plan on setting bevels, Nani 3k/5k is nice but you may need to get down even lower.

My set up right now is Spyderco M, F, UF. Been with it for years and it under appreciated. I'll set a bevel, fix minor chips and throw a buttery edge with it. This set up doesn't break the bank and no major maintenance besides a wash down.

Coticle's are fun to use but I go back and forth.

 

[Neurotopia]

I got almost as good an edge on a full hollow razor I honed, 8 laps on the CrOx after the 12k, as richmondesi was able to put on my half-hollow with a Shapton 30k. Both cut equally well through my coarse beard with no irritation, and much less drag than coming off my 12k. Both are sharp enough that I've underestimated how much damage they can do, after shaving for 6 months off the 12k alone and being used to "powering through". I hadn't got so much as a weeper in 3 months, but I got myself a few times just because these two razors are scary sharp compared to what I'm used to.

Keep in mind I'm no honemeister, and I'm probably not all that much of a connoisseur of razors in the grand scheme of things.

Do you really feel the difference with Ray-man's Balsa Strop after Chinese 12K? I usually do either 30 straight strokes or 20 straight strokes and then 20 strokes with double-spine-taping, followed by regular leather stropping. Feels really smooth, but there is always room for improvement, especially for $20! Your feedback is appreciated.

 

[Sputnik]

Sounds convincing. I guess I have to spend $20 for the balsa strop. Thank you!

I got almost as good an edge on a full hollow razor I honed, 8 laps on the CrOx after the 12k, as richmondesi was able to put on my half-hollow with a Shapton 30k. Both cut equally well through my coarse beard with no irritation, and much less drag than coming off my 12k. Both are sharp enough that I've underestimated how much damage they can do, after shaving for 6 months off the 12k alone and being used to "powering through". I hadn't got so much as a weeper in 3 months, but I got myself a few times just because these two razors are scary sharp compared to what I'm used to.

Keep in mind I'm no honemeister, and I'm probably not all that much of a connoisseur of razors in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Neurotopia]

I think you'll enjoy it. When you strop on it (6-8 passes max) you won't feel like it's doing a thing, FYI. Reserve judgment till you shave.