What is the orig. Patina on a razor?

[mycarver]

I've looked around and didn't find an answer to this. Maybe I've looked in the wrong places. If so just point me in the right direction if this has been addressed before.
But what is the original patina on a brass razor? What makes me ask this is I've been reading the Gillette Bible and it was recommended to use Flitz. Well before I went after one of my prized possessions I used it on just a razor blade case. Some areas seem to have an almost "lacquered" look to them. Did these,, as well as the razors come with some sort of coating? There are areas that come up like a mirror, and other areas that remain dull. Is this the brass equivalent of steels' rust (tarnish) or some sort of coating as I mentioned. On the case, as well as on some razors I noticed a sort of orange-ish tint as well. What is that ?

Now on other brass that I've seen over years, the tarnish looks more like rust in a way,, sort of brownish , coarse and rough. Our solid Brass bed, in the nooks and crannies gets like this over time. Regular brass tarnish. Buff it a bit and it looks like the brass version of Chrome.

Should the entire razor look like this or do they generally, and originally, have that dull , almost lacquered look instead of polished shiny brass?

 

[Greybeard]

Gillette didn't make any plain brass razors. They made gold-plated razors.
The gold was plated over a base of brass or copper. They were then lacquer coated to protect the thin gold plating from scratches and wear.
Lacquer can dull and discolor over time. These are your dull spots. It can also wear off, exposing the gold. The gold, which is soft and thinly plated, will then wear off fairly quickly without the protective lacquer.

Gold doesn't oxidize. If you are seeing spots of brown, black, reddish brown, or green, then that is where the gold has worn off. The base brass or copper material is oxidizing as it is exposed to the air.

The orange tint you are seeing means that the base material is copper. Copper will gradually leech into gold. Gillette usually did not use a barrier layer between the gold plating and the base material to prevent this. The thinner the gold plating, the more the copper color will show (yellow gold + red copper = orange).
Brass will also leech, but the color stays yellowish.



- Peter

 

[mycarver]

Thank you Peter. I thought it rather odd how this was happening. And I apologize for the poor choice of words,, Brass. I was just distinguishing between these and the other metals that were used.
On the case for example the Flitz was lifting the once clear coating. Something just didn't seem right about what was happening.
So the final verdict then is to basically just clean them, and leave them be as they are? A coat of wax maybe to add a bit of a protective "barrier"?

 

[Greybeard]

Thank you Peter. I thought it rather odd how this was happening. And I apologize for the poor choice of words,, Brass. I was just distinguishing between these and the other metals that were used.
On the case for example the Flitz was lifting the once clear coating. Something just didn't seem right about what was happening.
So the final verdict then is to basically just clean them, and leave them be as they are? A coat of wax maybe to add a bit of a protective "barrier"?

No need to apologize, Mark.
Some have claimed that Flitz or MAAS won't harm the lacquer coating. My personal experience is that it can. I just clean, then lightly buff my gold plated razors with a soft cotton rag.

I've never tried a wax, so I don't know if it would work. Some people have re-lacquered their gold plated razors, but I have no personal experience with this. Gold will last indefinitely as long as it is not subject to wear. So if there is no tarnishing on your case or blade boxes, I would just leave those be. Unfortunately a coating won't do anything about the orange color change as that is internal.
Gillette never intended their razors to be around this long. I have had one of mine re-plated since some gold had worn off to the copper base.
Hope this helps.



- Peter

 

[82R100]

It is possible that the lacquer has yellowed with time. That being said, I agree that you should not attempt to polish it off.

- Chris

 

[mycarver]

Thanks guys, I appreciate your input. I don't know if I really want to spray anything on them at this point. That's why I thought a simple application of wax might be better than just leaving it bare as it were. I can only hope to slow the process and control it without doing further damage.
Again, thank you.
Mark

 

[Haiku]

Am I mistaken, but I thought that the ball headed New was brass. I have a NOS one complete with instructions and box and nowhere does it say anything about a gold plate.

 

[mycarver]

That too was something I was wondering about. Some of my old ones from the early 1900's seem to be brass. Now, maybe after all this time any plating has worn off. But a few do seem to be just brass with no evidence of gold. Later ones, and maybe because they haven't been around as long and endured wear and tear do have a coating of some sort in addition to being able to see the gold.
I'm finding this very interesting. Me and my curiosity.

 

[JPDyson]

Isn't patina just natural oxidation and such (like why Lady Liberty is green)? It's not an intentional coating, but an acquired coating through use and exposure. So, as far as I can tell, removing patina could have the negative affect of removing value as an antique, but a positive one (forsaking the prior) in restoring an original polish.

If there is a lacquer, it would not be appropriate to call this patina.

 

[Haiku]

Isn't patina just natural oxidation and such (like why Lady Liberty is green)? It's not an intentional coating, but an acquired coating through use and exposure. So, as far as I can tell, removing patina could have the negative affect of removing value as an antique, but a positive one (forsaking the prior) in restoring an original polish.

If there is a lacquer, it would not be appropriate to call this patina.

Well yes, yes and no and yes.

Save for some metals such as gold, chrome and a few others, metal will develop a patina over time. Copper will eventually go green for example. Silver goes black.

But many products are given a patina fresh out of the factory. There are lots of ways that metals are given patinas, some are buried in the ground for a time, others are treated with acids or other chemicals, and these are often considered "real" in that they really are patinas, and not paint. They're not the result of age, but they are "natural". Some products have "fake" patinas which can include some plaster sculpture that has a coating of fine copper powder embedded in it, and then treated so that the copper goes green.

And yes, lacquer is not a patina.

 

[JPDyson]

Well yes, yes and no and yes.

Save for some metals such as gold, chrome and a few others, metal will develop a patina over time. Copper will eventually go green for example. Silver goes black.

But many products are given a patina fresh out of the factory. There are lots of ways that metals are given patinas, some are buried in the ground for a time, others are treated with acids or other chemicals, and these are often considered "real" in that they really are patinas, and not paint. They're not the result of age, but they are "natural". Some products have "fake" patinas which can include some plaster sculpture that has a coating of fine copper powder embedded in it, and then treated so that the copper goes green.

And yes, lacquer is not a patina.

So there are ways to expedite patina, which is natural* but not naturally natural

 

[Haiku]

So there are ways to expedite patina, which is natural* but not naturally natural

Well, naturally. That's the miracle of chemistry.

 

[mycarver]

I don't think lacquer in and of itself is a patina,,but as in old furniture finished in lacquer it will develop a patina as well. Part is the wood changing color and some is dirt/grime embedded in the finish. Now if some old razors had some sort of finish on them,, or it's worn off at this point, is it better to leave them all grungy looking to preserve whatever value they may have and would this increase their value leaving them "as is". It's not like we're talking about an all original Duesenburg,, or original Louis XV Armoire where you're talking serious money but even there, a properly done cleaning isn't frowned upon. True, many of these razors can be rare,, but the ones that aren't, can a good cleaning really be all that bad ?

 

[buddydog]

Gillette didn't make any plain brass razors. They made gold-plated razors.
The gold was plated over a base of brass or copper. They were then lacquer coated to protect the thin gold plating from scratches and wear.
Lacquer can dull and discolor over time. These are your dull spots. It can also wear off, exposing the gold. The gold, which is soft and thinly plated, will then wear off fairly quickly without the protective lacquer.

Gold doesn't oxidize. If you are seeing spots of brown, black, reddish brown, or green, then that is where the gold has worn off. The base brass or copper material is oxidizing as it is exposed to the air.

The orange tint you are seeing means that the base material is copper. Copper will gradually leech into gold. Gillette usually did not use a barrier layer between the gold plating and the base material to prevent this. The thinner the gold plating, the more the copper color will show (yellow gold + red copper = orange).
Brass will also leech, but the color stays yellowish.



- Peter

(Copper will gradually leech into gold.)

What...?

 

[Greybeard]

(Copper will gradually leech into gold.)

What...?

Wikipedia article on plating

Gold plating
Main article: Gold plating
Gold plating is a method of depositing a thin layer of gold on the surface of other metal, most often copper or silver.

Gold plating is often used in electronics, to provide a corrosion-resistant electrically conductive layer on copper, typically in electrical connectors and printed circuit boards. With direct gold-on-copper plating, the copper atoms have the tendency to diffuse through the gold layer, causing tarnishing of its surface and formation of an oxide/sulfide layer. A layer of a suitable barrier metal, usually nickel, has therefore to be deposited on the copper substrate, forming a copper-nickel-gold sandwich.


Technical paper from Polar Instruments Corp.

Other plating finishes are used, most commonly gold. However, copper and gold tend to undergo solid state diffusion into each other (with copper doing so at a faster rate); the process is accelerated by increased temperature. Copper on a trace surface oxidizes, resulting in increased contact resistance (copper migrating into the gold can cause the gold to tarnish and corrode).

This can be minimized by plating a barrier layer between the copper and gold. Nickel is commonly used as a barrier layer to prevent the gold migrating into the copper on the tracks. (The nickel barrier helps to reduce both the number and the effect of pores compared with plating gold directly over the copper base.)

More citations available on request




- Peter