Water drips out of brush when face lathering.

[kiwimike]

Hi all.
For a few months I have been using my 24/55 Frank Shaving silvertip brush for face lather soaps (mainly Speick and Euro palmolive).
I have been getting excellent results.
My technique is to shake out the brush that has soaked for 15 mins or so while I shower, load on the puck (both sticks have been milled into pucks) for around 25-30 secs, and then build lather on my wet face.
I start out using light pressure so the water doesn't fall out and then increase the pressure gradually until the bristles splay and the lather begins to build.
I finish with paint brush style strokes to spread the lather evenly once its built.
I normally have to dip the brush a few times in the water to achieve the consistency I want.
I have been getting excellent consistent lather this way until recently, when once the lather is mostly built and I go to the paint brush strokes, some water that has built up in the base of the knot drips out all over the place and I then end up with runny lather.
Whats going on here?
Im pretty sure my technique hasn't changed so I am wondering if the breaking in of the brush has altered its characteristics?
It may be either holding more water now or losing its ability to hold as much water as it did.
Either way, water seems to be building up in the base of the knot and not mixing with the rest of the lather and then when the brush is bent (by the paint brush strokes) as opposed to splayed the water leaks out.
This is a relatively cheap brush and I am wondering if the glue that holds the bristles in is somehow porous or whether is bristles have just somehow become less absorptive.
Am I soaking the brush for too long?
Anyone have a similar experience?
Any suggestions much appreciated.

Cheers- Michael.

 

[Latherdude]

15 minutes seems like quite a long time to soak a brush. I've never really thought about that, but I actually do the same thing sometimes! Haha. Sometimes I just stretch out my showers and I'll end up soaking my brush for 10 minutes or however long I'm showering.

Maybe just soak it for a couple minutes. Other times I just soak it while I brush my teeth; this gives it plenty of time to soak up that warm water, and less time for that water to cool off. And it still lathers fine.

And a side note: you might not want to soak anything but the hair in water. At the very least, there's no need to soak the handle. At the worst, maybe it degrades the glue holding the knot in place. At least that's why I think my Omega Pro 48 boar knot went flying across the den once...

 

[kiwimike]

Hi Brian.
Thanks for your suggestions.
Yeah it wasn't until I actually thought about how long it soaks for that I realised thats probably too long.
I will try soaking it just for a few minutes after I shower while I am preparing for my shave and try soaking it in a mug so just the bristles are submerged and see how that goes.
The other option it to squeeze the water out prior to loading, rather than just shaking, so that I start out with a drier brush, however I am concerned about getting brush burn when face lathering with a dry brush.

 

[OldGreyGuy]

I find for me that I soak for far less, perhaps as little as a minute and for the Muhle Synthetic brush I merely dip.

I also let it drain well and shake it before I move to the soap, loading until the mixture starts to thicken up and then move to my face, if I think it is then too dry I can then dip the brush.

Been doing this for nearly 40 years now, don't see a need to change much.

 

[galopede]

I would ask how far into the water do you dip the brush when adding water to the lather? I have always face lathered and I just dip the tips of the brush momentarily to add more water. I may do this several times during the lather building but it's a little at a time. If you are dipping the brush right into the water perhaps that's your problem?

I don't think a long soak is the problem if you shake it out before you start - or maybe you just need more shake or even a squeeze?

I tend to start with a well soaked but fairly dry brush.

Gareth

 

[craig94yj]

I don't let my brush soak by itself. I hold it while I fill the sink and that seems to work fine for me. I use boar brushes for face lathering. If you want to let it soak while you shower pick up one of those cheap plastic stands, put it in the sink and just let the water cover the bristles as mentioned above for a worry free soak. Good luck and good shaves to you.

 

[celestino]

How much of the bristle are soaking in the water? If you are submersing all of the bristles past the knot base into the brush, that may be an issue.
Also, "galopede" mentioned, how much of the bristles are you wetting when lathering?
Good luck.

 

[blzrfn]

I have gotten into the habit of squeezing my brush after soaking rather than shaking it. With the hard water at my house I really need to be careful with how much water is in the mix and it is hard to be consistent with shaking the brush. It is always easier to add more water to the mix than it is to add more product, especially soap.

 

[Slash McCoy]

You can also slowly rotate the brush as you lather, especially after re-wetting.

 

[willwhatyoudo]

It sounds like you're "breaking the breach". I think one of Mantic's YouTube video addresses the breach. Some people hold the brush at the base of the knot rather than the handle to avoid breaking the breach. Personally I just splay the brush open enough to release the extra water while I create my lather. If you're finding that your lather is too watery when breaking the breach, you've got a few options: 1) Give the brush a squeeze before loading to get out the extra water or 2) hold the brush by the knot base to avoid breaking the breach, or 3) break the breach while lathering and use more soap.

I'm not sure why you're just starting to see this issue in your brush. Maybe the brush is a bit more broken in?

 

[dpmtherrien]

I've found this to work the best, after trying many different ways of using a brush. I just hold it under the running tap for a few, and get it good and wet. Then I give it a really light squeeze, and shake it lightly up and down a couple of times. Then I work it on the soap puck and apply it to my face. For me this seems to work really well, but I'd advise you to try several different ways of loading the brush until you find the one that works the best for you.

 

[kiwimike]

Thanks for all your replys and suggestions guys.

I would ask how far into the water do you dip the brush when adding water to the lather? I have always face lathered and I just dip the tips of the brush momentarily to add more water. I may do this several times during the lather building but it's a little at a time. If you are dipping the brush right into the water perhaps that's your problem?

I don't think a long soak is the problem if you shake it out before you start - or maybe you just need more shake or even a squeeze?

I tend to start with a well soaked but fairly dry brush.

Gareth

I only just quickly dip the tips in when adding water, I dont dunk the whole brush in.

I don't let my brush soak by itself. I hold it while I fill the sink and that seems to work fine for me. I use boar brushes for face lathering. If you want to let it soak while you shower pick up one of those cheap plastic stands, put it in the sink and just let the water cover the bristles as mentioned above for a worry free soak. Good luck and good shaves to you.

Thats a good idea to let it sit in the water on the stand. I didnt want to add another mug to the mix as Im trying to keep it simple and reduce my shave time.

How much of the bristle are soaking in the water? If you are submersing all of the bristles past the knot base into the brush, that may be an issue.
Also, "galopede" mentioned, how much of the bristles are you wetting when lathering?
Good luck.

I am submersing the whole brush past the knot in the water and leaving it to soak, and just wetting the tips of the brush when adding water to the brush.

You can also slowly rotate the brush as you lather, especially after re-wetting.

I do that already but its when I switch to the paint brush strokes that the water drips out due to the knot being bent as opposed to being splayed.

It sounds like you're "breaking the breach". I think one of Mantic's YouTube video addresses the breach. Some people hold the brush at the base of the knot rather than the handle to avoid breaking the breach. Personally I just splay the brush open enough to release the extra water while I create my lather. If you're finding that your lather is too watery when breaking the breach, you've got a few options: 1) Give the brush a squeeze before loading to get out the extra water or 2) hold the brush by the knot base to avoid breaking the breach, or 3) break the breach while lathering and use more soap.

I'm not sure why you're just starting to see this issue in your brush. Maybe the brush is a bit more broken in?

Yeah Ive never really understood the whole 'dont break the breach' thing. I would think its best to splay the knot enough to break the breach every time so the water in the knot has a chance to mix with the soap.
As I said in my original post I have only just started to have this problem so I am thinking the brushes water holding capacity has changed somehow so now I need to adapt to suit.

I've found this to work the best, after trying many different ways of using a brush. I just hold it under the running tap for a few, and get it good and wet. Then I give it a really light squeeze, and shake it lightly up and down a couple of times. Then I work it on the soap puck and apply it to my face. For me this seems to work really well, but I'd advise you to try several different ways of loading the brush until you find the one that works the best for you.

All great suggestions thanks guys.
I think I will try this:
-only soak the brushes bristles for a few minutes by putting the brush in a mug or on a stand in the basin so it is sitting vertically with the water level just up to the handle.
-give the brush a light squeeze as opposed to shaking to remove more of the water from in the base of the knot. Hopefully a light squeeze will be more consistent at leaving the same amount of water in the brush each time.
-if I find that the brush is too dry after loading I could quickly dip just the tips to pick up a little water before going to the face. That way the water will be at the end of the brush instead of in the base of the knot.
Thanks all.

 

[OldGreyGuy]

All great suggestions thanks guys.
I think I will try this:
-only soak the brushes bristles for a few minutes by putting the brush in a mug or on a stand in the basin so it is sitting vertically with the water level just up to the handle.
-give the brush a light squeeze as opposed to shaking to remove more of the water from in the base of the knot. Hopefully a light squeeze will be more consistent at leaving the same amount of water in the brush each time.
-if I find that the brush is too dry after loading I could quickly dip just the tips to pick up a little water before going to the face. That way the water will be at the end of the brush instead of in the base of the knot.
Thanks all.

Good summary and to me it all sounds sensible.

 

[banditman]

I've found this to work the best, after trying many different ways of using a brush. I just hold it under the running tap for a few, and get it good and wet. Then I give it a really light squeeze, and shake it lightly up and down a couple of times. Then I work it on the soap puck and apply it to my face. For me this seems to work really well, but I'd advise you to try several different ways of loading the brush until you find the one that works the best for you.

+1 I've found that this works consistently whether I bowl lather or face lather.

 

[kiwimike]

Hi guys.
Well I shaved tonight so I got to try out these new methods.
I soaked the brush in a cup of water only up to the handle for a couple of minutes while I prepared for the shave.
Squeezed the majority of the water out of the brush before loading on my palmolive puck for 30 sec.
I would say it was a 'medium' squeeze as opposed to a 'light' or 'heavy' squeeze (I experimented with how much water is left after each 'type' of squeeze beforehand).
I noticed the loading felt and looked different than normal.
Obviously it was drier, but the puck developed a kind of white paste as opposed to still looking a little wet.
I had a look at a soap lathering tutorial and it stated a paste should form, so so far so good.
It wasn't too dry to start face lathering so I continued on until it was obvious the lather needed more water to develop.
So I quickly dipped just the tips of the brush and went back to the face.
The lather still didn't seem to be developing so I dipped another 3 or so times- it did seem quite slow to develop.
When I felt it was time to start painting to distribute the lather evenly the water started dripping out of the brush again and my lather turned runny!!
So I have eliminated a few of the variables- I know its not the soak time or too much water in the brush to start with as I soaked it for lees and squeezed the water out instead of just shaking it out.
It seems to be that when I dip the tips in and go back to the face, the lather runs to the base of the knot instead of mixing with the lather in the brush.
Perhaps its to do with the fact that the brush is always held horizontally or almost upside down when lathering, although this has always been the case.
Perhaps I am dipping too much and that I need to dip and then shake a little before going back to the face?
Im still pretty certain that the brush has changed with breaking in and now I need to work with this new characteristic.
The other thing I found with the other brushes prior to this one, is that I had to press the bristles down really hard to get the lather to form (I guess the breach is broken then) and with this brush I don't (my previous brush was a muhle synthetic silvertip fibre).
I got this silvertip because I wanted a softer brush as I was getting brush burn with the muhle synthetic as it had a lot of backbone.
I used more pressure at the start when I got this Frank shaving silvertip brush because thats what I was used to.
But I think over time I have used less pressure because this brush doesn't need it to get the bristles to splay.
So perhaps I need to use more pressure to open the breach and get the water to mix with the lather before going to the painting strokes?
Sorry for the long email- just thinking out loud.

Thanks- Michael.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Hi guys.
Well I shaved tonight so I got to try out these new methods.
I soaked the brush in a cup of water only up to the handle for a couple of minutes while I prepared for the shave.
Squeezed the majority of the water out of the brush before loading on my palmolive puck for 30 sec.
I would say it was a 'medium' squeeze as opposed to a 'light' or 'heavy' squeeze (I experimented with how much water is left after each 'type' of squeeze beforehand).
I noticed the loading felt and looked different than normal.
Obviously it was drier, but the puck developed a kind of white paste as opposed to still looking a little wet.
I had a look at a soap lathering tutorial and it stated a paste should form, so so far so good.
It wasn't too dry to start face lathering so I continued on until it was obvious the lather needed more water to develop.
So I quickly dipped just the tips of the brush and went back to the face.
The lather still didn't seem to be developing so I dipped another 3 or so times- it did seem quite slow to develop.
When I felt it was time to start painting to distribute the lather evenly the water started dripping out of the brush again and my lather turned runny!!
So I have eliminated a few of the variables- I know its not the soak time or too much water in the brush to start with as I soaked it for lees and squeezed the water out instead of just shaking it out.
It seems to be that when I dip the tips in and go back to the face, the lather runs to the base of the knot instead of mixing with the lather in the brush.
Perhaps its to do with the fact that the brush is always held horizontally or almost upside down when lathering, although this has always been the case.
Perhaps I am dipping too much and that I need to dip and then shake a little before going back to the face?
Im still pretty certain that the brush has changed with breaking in and now I need to work with this new characteristic.
The other thing I found with the other brushes prior to this one, is that I had to press the bristles down really hard to get the lather to form (I guess the breach is broken then) and with this brush I don't (my previous brush was a muhle synthetic silvertip fibre).
I got this silvertip because I wanted a softer brush as I was getting brush burn with the muhle synthetic as it had a lot of backbone.
I used more pressure at the start when I got this Frank shaving silvertip brush because thats what I was used to.
But I think over time I have used less pressure because this brush doesn't need it to get the bristles to splay.
So perhaps I need to use more pressure to open the breach and get the water to mix with the lather before going to the painting strokes?
Sorry for the long email- just thinking out loud.

Thanks- Michael.

That might be it. Get rid of the water while you are making lather. Dump all that water into your lather so there is basically no water left in the brush.

 

[kiwimike]

That might be it. Get rid of the water while you are making lather. Dump all that water into your lather so there is basically no water left in the brush.

Sorry, not following you there Slash.
I am face lathering, not bowl lathering.
Is that what you meant?

 

[Neep]

Gentlemen:

You really do not need to soak a badger hair brush at all !!
There is no advantage whatsoever from doing so. Badger hairs, unlike boar bristles, are not porous! Badger hairs do not soften or soak up water. The spaces between badger hairs in brushes hold water.

The age old technique of soaking brushes comes from the use of boar bristle brushes. Boar bristles are, as we all know.... much more coarse and scratchy, that's why they are called "bristles" and not "hair". Soaking the boar bristles in water softens them as they absorb water, and makes their use on the face more comfortable.

Rod

 

[CHSeifert]

Gentlemen:

You really do not need to soak a badger hair brush at all !!
There is no advantage whatsoever from doing so. Badger hairs, unlike boar bristles, are not porous! Badger hairs do not soften or soak up water. The spaces between badger hairs in brushes hold water.

The age old technique of soaking brushes comes from the use of boar bristle brushes. Boar bristles are, as we all know.... much more coarse and scratchy, that's why they are called "bristles" and not "hair". Soaking the boar bristles in water softens them as they absorb water, and makes their use on the face more comfortable.

Rod

I strongly disagree !

I own a couple of dozen of HIGH QUALITY Silvertip badger brushes, and while some of the softer 3-Band Silvertips only benefit slightly from being soaked in water, I own several 2-Band Silvertip brushes that while dry are stiff and rough, but as soon as soaked in water they become gently soft.
I could simply not use these brushes without soaking them in water before use - it's as simple as that, so i can not disagree more with your statement !

 

[Slash McCoy]

Sorry, not following you there Slash.
I am face lathering, not bowl lathering.
Is that what you meant?

Face lathering IS lathering AFAIC. I don't bowl lather and i don't let my friends bowl lather! What I meant is work all the water out of the brush into your FACE lather, before doing the paintbrush thingie.