Warped blade

[2bit_collie]

OK first a warning - some of the below photos are stomach turning. I’m just a noob, try not to be too harsh!

I recently took a gamble on a Heljestrand 24 advertised on eBay. It clearly had been treated roughly, with a chip in the blade, but it was cheap, I had been looking for a Heljestrand, and I enjoy honing/restoration, so thought “why not?”

Honing down the chip went fairly smoothly at first, until I realized that the same trauma that had caused the chip had also warped the blade. I had only half a bevel on each side - one side had a bevel at the heel and toe, the other side only in the middle. I then spent some time trying to hone through this. The No24 is a near wedge (though to my eye it appeared close to a 1/4 hollow) so in theory if I brought the edge close enough to the spine eventually I would reach a point where the was metal on both sides of a straight line edge and then I would be OK. Better to do this on a 4/8 near wedge than a 7/8 extra hollow!

1st photo is the razor as received, next two photos show hone wear from the work I did this morning. Still don’t have a complete bevel on each side, but perhaps the finish line can be seen in the distance (or not). The chip is almost completely gone, but it is centered right at the point of maximum warp.

Looking for suggestions. My thought right now is that I have completely ruined the appearance of this razor, so I may as well keep honing - eventually I will have a straight edge with at least some bevel along the entire length of the blade. Am I correct that I am better off with a straight edge then trying to use a convex honing surface to follow the line of the warp?

 

[bluesman 7]

You have worn the razor into a smile now. I would stay with that at this point, but the grind doesn't match the planform causing the uneven reveals on the bevel and spine. You can just hone it as is with a rolling X stroke. Flat hones work fine on smiling blades. The only cure for the appearance and over grown reveals is a re grind to make the hollows follow your new edge planform.

 

[LJS]

It’s seems the razor to start would need a lot of steel removed from the edge. You did that but the long way and now with huge bevels. One like this may have been too far gone depending on what shaving angle you end up with after steel removal. If I were to have spent any time with this one I would have started on a wet grinder to just eat the ratty edge off (no heat problem with wet grinder). Then I would tape the spine and either hand grind a bevel on a low grit stone or on horizontal wet wheel. Then I would see if it can be hones without tape (my preference) and reset bevel without tape on ~1000 grit hone. But the grind of that razor may be too wedge in which case I would use tape and hone.

If you are going to do some massive steel removal or corrective work, you can save yourself a lot of time, steel, and aesthetics to start of taping the spine and focusing the grinding work on the edge. The con of this is that the spine does not wear down so you effectively increase the edge angle. That said....when you end up with massive surface bevel like you have now it is not exactly a good situation either so you have to weigh all this out. Next time, start that corrective work with the spine taped and as you get to get edge steel peel it off. If bevel is too big put the tape back.

Good experimentation and practice. Keep at it.

Oh, and a straight line for an edge is not necessary or better. There are many curved or smiling razors out there. A frown however, a dip on the center of the blade, tends to be problematic. Good luck

 

[Slash McCoy]

Yeah just keep going until you have a bevel. Roll the x. It doesn't have to be straightened. Set the bevel good, run your progression, and after measuring the bevel angle, tape the spine for the finish. You have, whether it was originally that way or not, a near wedge. You have a lot of contact area. One layer of tape on the spine for the finish only, with very very light pressure, will bring in the edge nicely. It is of grave importance that you center the spine precisely in the tape. Torque down slightly. No sense clogging your hone up with tape gum. The razor is far from being a lost cause, if you only want a shaver.

I would NOT tape the spine until the finish. If anything, just torque the edge down a bit. Keep your (taped) secondary bevel small and subsequent honing will be quick and easy, and you will maximize your whisker cutting power. Tape can be extremely useful but I see far too much eagerness to reach for it automatically or nearly so, without even measuring the bevel angle and determining whether it will help or hurt.

A big primary bevel is not a problem. A very very thin secondary bevel is a definite plus. The smaller, the better. That's why I recommend taping your razor only at the finish stage. If it were a true wedge, it would be different and call for tape earlier in the progression or even at the bevel set.

Another thing, when finishing this razor. At the end of the finishing stage, shorten up your stroke. Your edge may be somewhat delicate, depending on bevel angle, and short x strokes won't create a fin edge the way longer strokes do. Throw a few pull strokes in there, too, to strip the edge of any artifacts.

If you're not sure how to measure the bevel angle, stop right there and say something, and somebody can post the usual method.

 

[2bit_collie]

Thanks to @bluesman 7 @LJS and @Slash McCoy for your comments. Makes a lot of sense. So in answer to some questions, comments:
1) No access to wet grinder unfortunately
2) Two comments on rolling Xs. Once mentioned seems obvious (Of course). Had been using 1/2 strokes. I will switch to rolling Xs.
3) I put it on my granite tile. While the one side is still missing the bevel in the middle, I have no daylight which indicates that I am really close to at least having some bevel there. On the other side only missing the bevel at the heel. The toe on that side is quite a ways off the granite, but the rolling X should allow me to generate the bevel at the heel. Probably will end up with a bit more smile but not the end of the world. By the eyeball - it looks like the spine (untouched top edge) has about a 1mm smile. The edge currently is about a 2mm smile
4) Bevel angle. So I do track this (one benefit of Work From Home is that I have my work-issued vernier caliper at home). When first received the bevel angle was at 18 degrees (only measured at middle). Right now it is ranging between 17.4 - 18.3 degrees with the minimum in the middle and the max at the toe. So frankly I’m not too upset about the hone wear on the spine (other than how awful it looks) that is what allowed me to keep the bevel angle relatively constant as I knocked over 0.02” off of the edge at the chip. It looks like I really took about 0.04” off at the toe, almost nothing at the heel (the chip was about 1/3 of the way down from the toe). Again as a reference I started with middle width of 0.53”, currently running 0.525” at the heel 0.505” where the chip was and 0.495” near the toe.
5) @Slash McCoy - you mention bringing the tape in at the finish. My progression is likely to be 320, 800, 1200, 2000, 5000, 8000, ILR, black Ark (I do normally use pasted balsa Method, but I guess we can kiss that part goodbye!). I am thinking about adding tape at 8000, which is the highest grit where I can actually see anything happening in terms of grey streaks from removed metal appearing on the stone (on the ILR and black Ark I mostly go by feel). Sound about right?

Thanks again everyone for your comments!
Marty

 

[Slash McCoy]

I have never used an ILR. A well burnished black ark sometimes removes essentially zero steel, depending on how heavyhanded you are. It can in some cases be almost like stropping a kitchen knife on a steel. So okay don't wait until the arkie to tape. Like I said, I don't know about the ILR. Intuitively that is where I would tape the spine. But if you really want to tape at the 8k stage, okay, then. Perform your 8k routine, and when you have good stiction that plateaus and stops getting stickier, right there, stop. Check your bevel and edge carefully with your loupe and a very bright light. Looks good? Okay, then apply tape and go a half dozen light laps with tape on the spine. Then a few pull strokes. Then a dozen very short x stroke laps. Be sure to perform your normal sharpness test on the edge at this point. You might even have a quick test shave.

Okay, continuing onward, finish your progression with tape, and finish, with tape. You are correct, you can forget about the balsa after taped honing. That's okay. You can up your game a lot on the arkie, by using oil or soap instead of water, and adjusting the viscocity progressively, using very very light pressure, and a lot of laps. thinner oil or soap cuts faster. Thicker cuts finer. You should have no problem getting a 12k+ equivalent edge from your arkie. Not Method sharp, but shave ready in anybody's book.

 

[2bit_collie]

I have never used an ILR. A well burnished black ark sometimes removes essentially zero steel, depending on how heavyhanded you are. It can in some cases be almost like stropping a kitchen knife on a steel. So okay don't wait until the arkie to tape. Like I said, I don't know about the ILR. Intuitively that is where I would tape the spine. But if you really want to tape at the 8k stage, okay, then. Perform your 8k routine, and when you have good stiction that plateaus and stops getting stickier, right there, stop. Check your bevel and edge carefully with your loupe and a very bright light. Looks good? Okay, then apply tape and go a half dozen light laps with tape on the spine. Then a few pull strokes. Then a dozen very short x stroke laps. Be sure to perform your normal sharpness test on the edge at this point. You might even have a quick test shave.

Okay, continuing onward, finish your progression with tape, and finish, with tape. You are correct, you can forget about the balsa after taped honing. That's okay. You can up your game a lot on the arkie, by using oil or soap instead of water, and adjusting the viscocity progressively, using very very light pressure, and a lot of laps. thinner oil or soap cuts faster. Thicker cuts finer. You should have no problem getting a 12k+ equivalent edge from your arkie. Not Method sharp, but shave ready in anybody's book.

Thanks @Slash McCoy - that’s pretty much what I was thinking, run the 8k (a Naniwa Snow White) sans tape then tape and do quick. Also my standard honing steps pretty much what you usually state (I usually do edge leading, then edge trailing, a few pulls and then the short X-strokes, it seems to work quite well). While I have been using the pasted balsa Method, on most recent hones I have initially stropped after the black Ark and shaved 1-2 times, then gone to the pasted balsa, just to have a reference. I‘m not at the point where the black Ark is equal to pasted balsa, but it definitely gives a good shave.

This afternoon I went back to the stones. Using the rolling X-s (actually what I call the 3-fingered salute) I was able to make the bevel continuous on both sides without any additional wear and then ran the progression up to 2k. At that point I took a break, then did a sandpaper progression on the blade surface to get rid of the scratches from the 320 slurry. So right now looking a lot better than it did in the photos posted earlier today.

Tomorrow I will start up with the 5k, make sure the edge didn’t take any damage from this evening’s sanding, and finish the progression. Hope to get a shave off of this within the week.

 

[2bit_collie]

Done!
I ended up putting the tape on when I started the ILR. I did establish a microbevel per first photo below. Not sure if this is due to the steel, the microbevel or something else, but the edge really performed for treetopping, even before stropping. Usually off the black ark I get very minimal treetopping until after I strop. End photos follow. Ended up not looking as ghastly as I had thought. It does appear that my technique needs some work. At least some of the overhoning at the toe was likely due more to my technique then the actual bend in the razor. Shaves pretty well, though due to there being only 18 hours until my next shave I stopped at a single pass. But no blood, no irritation, felt like my typical black ark edge (is sharp, feels sharp).

By the way the horizontal line in the first photo is an arm hair and I think another photo features some more arm hairs - I must have taken the photos right after treetopping.

Thanks to all for their comments.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Did you by any chance measure the bevel angle? Looking at how the microbevel came out, I am suspecting that it is too acute and you may want to use an additional layer of tape, if the whole blade bevel angle is less than say 14 or 15 degrees.

 

[2bit_collie]

Did you by any chance measure the bevel angle? Looking at how the microbevel came out, I am suspecting that it is too acute and you may want to use an additional layer of tape, if the whole blade bevel angle is less than say 14 or 15 degrees.

Yes @Slash McCoy , Bevel angle was about 18 degrees without the tape. One impact of the honing without tape initially was that the bevel angle didn’t really change - 18deg when I received it, 18deg at the time I wrote yesterday, 1/2-way thru the honing.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Okay then, I wouldn't use two layers.