Tulsa Hone Help

[miyagiSR]

Is there anyone from Tulsa area, or even OKC that can help teach a man to hone or set a bevel?
I have been using SRs for a decade, and own 1k,4k,8k Nortons and 12k Naniwa stones, but have tried many times at honing and never get a good bevel set, then end up sending my razors off to a professional. Someone please rescue me and teach me a skill that will last a lifetime.

 

[Dave Sl8r]

Give a man a honed razor and he shaves for a day; teach a man to hone and he shaves for a lifetime.
Maybe some good samaritans from B&B can become Skype Mentors.
What a concept!

 

[miyagiSR]

Oh yea, we have Skype and technology now days... sometimes I forget. so yea need not be from Tulsa.
But yes, I have spent money on stones, countless hours on research (reading and YT), tried various methods, and always get close at the 1k range, but never quite there (HHT or TPT). It might be my Norton 1k? It is lapped well with DMT plate. it doesn't seem to be a popular stone for bevel setting, but it shouldn't be holding me back I would think.

If it helps convince any good samaritans to teach me, I shaved with my collection of razors for several years, and the past 3 years I have been using a dovo shavette with throwaways because I gave up on the honing and NOW I miss using a real razor. this is holding me back from a lifetime of enjoyment out of my 16 razors.

 

[global_dev]

and always get close at the 1k range, but never quite there (HHT or TPT)

what do you mean never quite there?

by the way, i use the stickyness of the Thumbnail Test. I dont like the sound of the TPT and only use the HHT at the very end more for consistency along edge rather than 12345.

i would suggest showing us what you are working with and then we can walk you through it and then finer points can be had through skype,zoom, etc.

For example lets see the razor you are gonna use, share some good pics of the face to include spine and bevel and shoulder/ tang.

give us some pics that show if it might be a frown (or slight smile). Line the edge up with a flat surface so we can see any gaps.

then share a bevel marker test result on any of the hones (make sure hones are completely flat) maybe higher grit i guess to not cause any unnecessary wear. One or 2 up and back.

are you using burr method? Or something else?

I’m wondering if you have a taped bevel issue or warp.

 

[global_dev]

It might be my Norton 1k? It is lapped well with DMT plate. it doesn't seem to be a popular stone for bevel setting, but it shouldn't be holding me back I would think.

btw, just saw this. I dont think the flat norton 1K should be an issue. Nortons need to be soaked and then flattened, right?

 

[SliceOfLife]

I used tpt when I was learning. Never hurt myself but I literally had no thumbprint for half a year. Just straight vertical lines.


Also curious what razors we are talking about. RSOs could definitely cause a “never quite there” beveling problem.

 

[Slash McCoy]

@miyagiSR can you tell us a bit about the razor you are having problems with? Maybe post a pic? @SliceOfLife might be on to something there. Also have you done much reading on setting the bevel?

Setting the bevel is THE essential part of honing a razor. Without a good bevel there IS NO EDGE. If the bevel is not properly set, no amount of polish can make it shave. The bevel IS the edge. It is a total complete monumental absolute waste of time to run the progression on a razor when the bevel was never set. And yet, it seems to be the most difficult part of honing to learn, and it shouldn't be. The biggest problem I think is, "well, I have honed X minutes or hours or days and done X laps, so surely it must be done by now". Or, "Well, it feels sharp to me". You can't guess or assume that the bevel is set. You must KNOW that it is, and be able to prove it.

You can simply hone, hone, and hone some more, periodically testing the edge and examining the edge under a bright light and a strong loupe. This of course is somewhat subjective until you have a little bit of experience. Nevertheless, many newbies do it that way and succeed, eventually. But I recommend The Burr Method. If you can follow directions, you should be able to set the bevel on your first attempt. Also, some razors are so far from having a bevel that a 1k stone just isn't up to the task. For many razors, 600 is a more appropriate starting grit, or 320 or even 240. Even coarser, if you are me, LOL. Do you have a USB microscope, so you can post pics of the edge?

Whatever you do, don't start in on finer grits than 1k until you can prove that a good bevel is set.

 

[miyagiSR]

what do you mean never quite there?

by the way, i use the stickyness of the Thumbnail Test. I dont like the sound of the TPT and only use the HHT at the very end more for consistency along edge rather than 12345.

i would suggest showing us what you are working with and then we can walk you through it and then finer points can be had through skype,zoom, etc.

For example lets see the razor you are gonna use, share some good pics of the face to include spine and bevel and shoulder/ tang.

give us some pics that show if it might be a frown (or slight smile). Line the edge up with a flat surface so we can see any gaps.

then share a bevel marker test result on any of the hones (make sure hones are completely flat) maybe higher grit i guess to not cause any unnecessary wear. One or 2 up and back.

are you using burr method? Or something else?

I’m wondering if you have a taped bevel issue or warp.

Not quite there as in, I can feel the edge get thinner or sharper on a thumb pad, but still not really sticky, and continues to glide over a wet thumbnail. I have tried three different razors this week. a genco (a lil spine wear or rounding), and two different Bokers, both really close to straight edge (not much frowning or spine wear) . I will take photos later, but they are all quality razors. I have tried Lynn's methods , circles etc. over the years, and yesterday tried the Burr method, but not sure if I am recognizing when I hit a burr... I started applying more pressure also on the 1k. I have tried with and without 1 layer of tape.

 

[miyagiSR]

I used tpt when I was learning. Never hurt myself but I literally had no thumbprint for half a year. Just straight vertical lines.


Also curious what razors we are talking about. RSOs could definitely cause a “never quite there” beveling problem.

quality vintage bokers, and a genco.

 

[miyagiSR]

@miyagiSR can you tell us a bit about the razor you are having problems with? Maybe post a pic? @SliceOfLife might be on to something there. Also have you done much reading on setting the bevel?

Setting the bevel is THE essential part of honing a razor. Without a good bevel there IS NO EDGE. If the bevel is not properly set, no amount of polish can make it shave. The bevel IS the edge. It is a total complete monumental absolute waste of time to run the progression on a razor when the bevel was never set. And yet, it seems to be the most difficult part of honing to learn, and it shouldn't be. The biggest problem I think is, "well, I have honed X minutes or hours or days and done X laps, so surely it must be done by now". Or, "Well, it feels sharp to me". You can't guess or assume that the bevel is set. You must KNOW that it is, and be able to prove it.

You can simply hone, hone, and hone some more, periodically testing the edge and examining the edge under a bright light and a strong loupe. This of course is somewhat subjective until you have a little bit of experience. Nevertheless, many newbies do it that way and succeed, eventually. But I recommend The Burr Method. If you can follow directions, you should be able to set the bevel on your first attempt. Also, some razors are so far from having a bevel that a 1k stone just isn't up to the task. For many razors, 600 is a more appropriate starting grit, or 320 or even 240. Even coarser, if you are me, LOL. Do you have a USB microscope, so you can post pics of the edge?

Whatever you do, don't start in on finer grits than 1k until you can prove that a good bevel is set.

I do not have a USB microscope. I do have a lighted loupe I have been using, and trying to notice the subtle differences in scratch, and light reflectivity.

I am trying the BURR method yesterday, and did 100 on one side with moderate pressure on 1k, then inspected and it looked good on that sides bevel, but I didn't really notice a burr. I then went to the other side, and did 100 and looked under the loupe and it looked like maybe a burr from that, but still don't know how to identify a burr. I think did 20 x strokes with lighter pressure, and hair test were close but def not great.

 

[lightfoot]

What I am about to say is speculative to some degree but it’s possible that you may be swimming uphill trying to set the bevel on the Norton 1K. There are a couple of stones that are more or less universally agreed upon as being quality fast bevel setters. One is the Shapton 1.5k & the other is the Naniwa Professional Series 1K. The quality of stone will have a direct impact on the end result on a straight razor in particular. I suspect that the Norton may be optimized more or less for knives. Also you can try to torque the edge every so slightly into the stone just to ensure good contact. This is most easily achieved by your basic X stroke.

 

[miyagiSR]

What I am about to say is speculative to some degree but it’s possible that you may be swimming uphill trying to set the bevel on the Norton 1K. There are a couple of stones that are more or less universally agreed upon as being quality fast bevel setters. One is the Shapton 1.5k & the other is the Naniwa Professional Series 1K. The quality of stone will have a direct impact on the end result on a straight razor in particular. I suspect that the Norton may be optimized more or less for knives. Also you can try to torque the edge every so slightly into the stone just to ensure good contact. This is most easily achieved by your basic X stroke.

is that the Shapton ceramic whetstone and not the glass one for a bevel setter?

 

[Dave Sl8r]

The Hr Glass and the Kuromaku Pros are both good, and the cost is negligible. A good bit more meat on the pros, but probably not an issue. just something to consider if is going to get a significant amount of use.

 

[lightfoot]

is that the Shapton ceramic whetstone and not the glass one for a bevel setter?

You can use either one. But the 1.5 K is not in the glass series. The glass series has a 1000 grit in the lineup but not a 1.5 K. The Kuromaku is 15mm thick but the glass series only has 5mm worth of abrasive material. I hope this helps

 

[Slash McCoy]

I do not have a USB microscope. I do have a lighted loupe I have been using, and trying to notice the subtle differences in scratch, and light reflectivity.

I am trying the BURR method yesterday, and did 100 on one side with moderate pressure on 1k, then inspected and it looked good on that sides bevel, but I didn't really notice a burr. I then went to the other side, and did 100 and looked under the loupe and it looked like maybe a burr from that, but still don't know how to identify a burr. I think did 20 x strokes with lighter pressure, and hair test were close but def not great.

Read and re-read the burr method thread.

Here is an exercise for you. Take a razor that you totally do not care about, and just hone one side, back and forth or circle strokes, until there is definitely definitely a burr. Just keep going. And going. Look at the edge. Feel the edge. Best way to feel it is to drag your fingertips from spine to edge and continue off the edge as if you were driving off a cliff. Feel both sides, for comparison. One side will catch slightly, one will be a smooth let-off. You need to use a reasonable amount of pressure, and no slurry on the stone. Rinse and rub. The entire dead weight of your arm is about right for pressure here. Sooner or later the burr will be crazy obvious and you will do a face palm as you realize you have had a burr already for quite some time.

Sometimes 100 laps isn't enough to raise a burr. Isn't half enough. Isn't a quarter enough. Depends on the razor, the grind, the steel, and the razor's state of health. On a razor with a nice bevel already, 20 strokes might give you a burr. On some razors you will have to dip down to 320 grit or even coarser to get it started, and the process will take an hour or more. Depends.

Remember that the burr is deflected UP from the hone. The burr will be on the opposite side, not the side you just honed.

Your lighted loupe is not enough light. You need a VERY bright light up close to read the subtle nuances of the reflections.

Do read again the burr method thread. It will get you on the right track. If you can follow directions, you can get results without having to "learn" anything at all. Later you might ease away from raising a full length burr. Often these days I use what I call the hybrid burr method. I raise a burr but I don't keep going until there is a burr present along the entire edge. Then I do the same number of laps on the other side, and if I then have some burr on the opposite side, I know that the heavy lifting is done. I start doing normal alternating laps with medium pressure, about the weight of my forearm, carefully checking the bevel by reading the reflections under a BRIGHT light with a good loupe or a very strong magnifying glass. I strongly recommend the popular Belomo 10x Triplet loupe. Same quality as B&L but considerably cheaper. A USB microscope is cheap and a good investment if you are going to stick with straight razors. Anyway, so after raising a partial burr on each side in turn I simply hone until I see a flawless bevel. When it is nearly there, I lighten the pressure still more. The weight of just my hand. Finally the weight of just the razor and a finger or two.

If there is any burr or fin or wire edge clinging to the edge, you are not done setting the bevel. Use pull strokes to strip the edge. To perform a pull stroke, lay your razor across your hone just as if you were taking a normal honing stroke, but instead of traveling along the long axis of the hone, you pull it directly sideways. Think of a microscopic team of horses dragging the razor by the monkeytail. If the hone is aligned N/S, the razor is pulled East by the tang. You only want about 3/4" of travel, though. Flip and hit the other side. There is one lap. Usually about 5 laps will ensure you have a clean edge. This also can have the effect of slightly rounding the bevel at the apex. To peak it back up, hone using very short X strokes, about 3" of travel, weight of the razor only, if you can manage that. About 30 laps if your pressure is dead light. That will leave you with the cleanest, purest bevel that your bevel setter is capable of delivering. Give it the TPT test, the TNT, the tomato or grape test, the forearm shave test, whatever. That rascal should be SHARP. And there should be absolutely no guessing about your bevel. If you are not either grinning ear to ear or slackjawed with amazement, you haven't nailed it yet.

The biggest reason why newbs fail when they try the burr method (and do not carefully read the thread and follow directions precisely) is not enough pressure in the beginning laps and not enough laps. Next is failing to read the reflections, and this is usually because the light source is inadequate or the optics are inferior. Also the presence of slurry fights development of a burr. Then a common failure point is not honing the burr off completely before starting the progression.

If you are disillusioned with the burr method and simply can't resolve to see the process through to the end, then just equalize the laps on both sides and then hone normally until you get there. The problem of course is you may never get there due to stopping prematurely or giving up or assuming that you got it by now.

 

[miyagiSR]

Read and re-read the burr method thread.

Here is an exercise for you. Take a razor that you totally do not care about, and just hone one side, back and forth or circle strokes, until there is definitely definitely a burr. Just keep going. And going. Look at the edge. Feel the edge. Best way to feel it is to drag your fingertips from spine to edge and continue off the edge as if you were driving off a cliff. Feel both sides, for comparison. One side will catch slightly, one will be a smooth let-off. You need to use a reasonable amount of pressure, and no slurry on the stone. Rinse and rub. The entire dead weight of your arm is about right for pressure here. Sooner or later the burr will be crazy obvious and you will do a face palm as you realize you have had a burr already for quite some time.

Sometimes 100 laps isn't enough to raise a burr. Isn't half enough. Isn't a quarter enough. Depends on the razor, the grind, the steel, and the razor's state of health. On a razor with a nice bevel already, 20 strokes might give you a burr. On some razors you will have to dip down to 320 grit or even coarser to get it started, and the process will take an hour or more. Depends.

Remember that the burr is deflected UP from the hone. The burr will be on the opposite side, not the side you just honed.

Your lighted loupe is not enough light. You need a VERY bright light up close to read the subtle nuances of the reflections.

Do read again the burr method thread. It will get you on the right track. If you can follow directions, you can get results without having to "learn" anything at all. Later you might ease away from raising a full length burr. Often these days I use what I call the hybrid burr method. I raise a burr but I don't keep going until there is a burr present along the entire edge. Then I do the same number of laps on the other side, and if I then have some burr on the opposite side, I know that the heavy lifting is done. I start doing normal alternating laps with medium pressure, about the weight of my forearm, carefully checking the bevel by reading the reflections under a BRIGHT light with a good loupe or a very strong magnifying glass. I strongly recommend the popular Belomo 10x Triplet loupe. Same quality as B&L but considerably cheaper. A USB microscope is cheap and a good investment if you are going to stick with straight razors. Anyway, so after raising a partial burr on each side in turn I simply hone until I see a flawless bevel. When it is nearly there, I lighten the pressure still more. The weight of just my hand. Finally the weight of just the razor and a finger or two.

If there is any burr or fin or wire edge clinging to the edge, you are not done setting the bevel. Use pull strokes to strip the edge. To perform a pull stroke, lay your razor across your hone just as if you were taking a normal honing stroke, but instead of traveling along the long axis of the hone, you pull it directly sideways. Think of a microscopic team of horses dragging the razor by the monkeytail. If the hone is aligned N/S, the razor is pulled East by the tang. You only want about 3/4" of travel, though. Flip and hit the other side. There is one lap. Usually about 5 laps will ensure you have a clean edge. This also can have the effect of slightly rounding the bevel at the apex. To peak it back up, hone using very short X strokes, about 3" of travel, weight of the razor only, if you can manage that. About 30 laps if your pressure is dead light. That will leave you with the cleanest, purest bevel that your bevel setter is capable of delivering. Give it the TPT test, the TNT, the tomato or grape test, the forearm shave test, whatever. That rascal should be SHARP. And there should be absolutely no guessing about your bevel. If you are not either grinning ear to ear or slackjawed with amazement, you haven't nailed it yet.

The biggest reason why newbs fail when they try the burr method (and do not carefully read the thread and follow directions precisely) is not enough pressure in the beginning laps and not enough laps. Next is failing to read the reflections, and this is usually because the light source is inadequate or the optics are inferior. Also the presence of slurry fights development of a burr. Then a common failure point is not honing the burr off completely before starting the progression.

If you are disillusioned with the burr method and simply can't resolve to see the process through to the end, then just equalize the laps on both sides and then hone normally until you get there. The problem of course is you may never get there due to stopping prematurely or giving up or assuming that you got it by now.

thanks for the lengthy responses. I can honestly say I have never grinned ear to ear with amazement at the bevel stage, so I know I have never "Nailed it", but don't move on in the progression either knowing that. I do however get frustrated and give up. just being honest.

I will read the thread again and see what I may have missed. thanks

 

[Slash McCoy]

Also you do not read the reflections in static mode. You must roll the razor slightly to see how the reflections shift. Think of the developed part of the bevel as a homogenous flat facet on a gemstone. As you turn it in the light, the reflection suddenly shifts to another facet. Maybe (almost always!) one that should not be there. That unwanted facet might not be flat. It might be rounded and the reflection will drift across it as the angle of incidence changes. The idea here is to continue to remove material in a controlled manner from the face of the desired facet so that it gets bigger in area, eventually spreading all the way to the edge, and continuing until it is machined deeply enough to precisely meet its opposite on the other side in a perfect edge. Until this happens there will be spots of reflection visible on the upturned edge.

So now you have removed considerable material from the blade. If you have not fumbled on any strokes, if the blade has always been flat on the hone, and you never rode up on the shoulder or "bent" the razor over the edge of the hone, and your hone was nice and flat, then all the material removed just brings you closer to completing the setting of the bevel.

Your best lighting IMHO is a pinpoint of light like from a very bright LED flashlight, for instance, up close to the razor. Sometimes though, a more distant and general light works better. The light source is more important than the optics. Eventually you will be reading the bevel with the unaided eye as you hone.

 

[miyagiSR]

UPDATE:
Got a new shapton 1.5k bevel setter Friday. Honed a boker and a Spike razor this weekend. Both turned out pretty decent. The spike, the second, actually seems really good.
i think my problem was that Norton 1k.
I’m sure I’ll get better with practice but thanks for all the help.

 

[Slash McCoy]

The Shap should give you a more refined bevel, yeah. I have a Norton and I used it recently even though I really do not like them and every time I use a Norton I am reminded that I do not like them. The Norton 1k feels coarser than the Chosera 600. It also loads up with swarf quite readily due to the very open matrix. One thing I will say, though, is it stays flat longer than the Kuromaku or Chosera or Cerax stones that I actually prefer, so that's something.

The Union Spike is one of the most unsung and underrated razors still to be found in the wild. I really like them. I like them better than Genco, and that is saying a lot. All of the mass produced American razors are very good value, but the Union Spike in particular often goes for crazy low prices and I really like the geometry.

 

[haggis]

Glad to hear things are going better in Tulsa. As a newbie I appreciated this thread to follow along. Thanks to the patient descriptions I am confident that I can now create, detect, and remove a burr. It was subtle but unmistakeable when trailing a finger over the edge.