Trouble honing

[Sarge438]

Hi there,

New to the forum and to straight razor shaving. I have been lurking and reading lots on the internet, however I have not been having success with the honing process. I have also not been able to find anything definitive to help me move forward.

Long story short, I was given a “Solingen Best Quality” straight razor a few years ago. I shaved with it, without stropping, until it was too dull to shave comfortably. I only recently pulled it out again as I had come to terms that I would have to spend money to upkeep it.

Not being able to find anyone locally to hone it for me (BC, Canada) I spoke with a fellow at Sharpening Supplies.com who advised me that in my situation I would need a Norton 4K/8k wetstone, as well as a strop and green compound. I bought and received them a week or so about.

I originally (edit: removed lapped) honed my blade at 8k before stropping, however it failed the HHT as well as the shave test. I went down to 4K, honed for quite a while, moved my way back up, and again the same results. I’ve stayed at 4K and have had no results.

I thought I should do the magic marker test as perhaps my stone was uneven. I found my blade was wearing different on one side than it was on the other, which leads me to believe that perhaps it is blade geometry.

Any advice on how to remedy this? I have posted photos of my MMT results for your consideration.

Thank you,

Sarge438

 

[Alum of Potash]

It depends on your honing skills, but the uneven wear as shown by the Sharpie markings seem to indicate an uneven spine, which is par for the course in this case. So hone on the 4k side until the edge is established by Sharpie removal before moving to the 8k. Then move to the green-pasted strop as needed, followed by a plain leather strop as a matter of course.

As for the HHT, I don't hold much faith in it unless it is consistently applied after stropping on plain leather. Even then, the HHT is an indication, not an end in itself.

Also, lapping refers to the flattening or dressing of the honing surface, not the sharpening process itself. With soft synth honing surfaces, it is important to keep them flat and free of swarf as accumulated. 320x wet-dry sandpaper used wet on a piece of plate glass will work in the short run to do this.

Hope this helps.

 

[Ice-Man]

Just found this to help in explaining how to lap your stone as this is a must, it needs to be level or your razor will wear uneven and give you big problems trying to get the bevel set....

 

[M14Shooter]

Tape may help with the spine issue .Sounds like you need to set bevel completely.

 

[Sarge438]

Thank you for your responses. I will lap my stone to make sure it is level. As for resetting the bevel, is this something I can do on my own with just a 4K/8k stone?

 

[ajduplessis]

4k will take forever to set a bevel. Use a 1K stone of buy 1k wet/dry sandpper on flat surface to set the bevel, then move up through your progressions

 

[Tester28]

As for resetting the bevel, is this something I can do on my own with just a 4K/8k stone?

Ive been chatting with the owner of Koraat razors to see what he recommends for his products.
He mentioned a Naniwa 3K/10K combo stone...he said the latter was good for setting the bevel
and 10K was a very good finisher. I assume this applies mainly to his silver steel which I was enquiring about.

 

[jj_sharp]

I usually advocate using what you have. Your Norton stone may be slower than a courser stone. Unless you are trying to make money honing, I would think the time spent would not be critical.

That said, when dealling with wonky grinds, I have used a cheap harber freight diamond set to even out the edge.

 

[Alum of Potash]

One remedy would be to actually strop the blade prior to shaving with it. Dovo blades from the factory usually come pretty close to being shave ready. So if you haven't changed things too much from the factory blade as received, I would think that the Norton 4000 might bring back the edge. Lap it, soak it, and try this one test. Prior to setting out, pass the edge lightly along the surface of the thumbnail of your non-dominant hand. If it grabs in passing, all is well. If it slides past smoothly, even in sections, then all is not well and you need to return to the 4000 until the razor is grabbing the thumbnail all along the edge. Further smoothing at the 8000 and green compound stage on a strop should refine things, not requiring the TNT as it will not work there. But at the 1k to 4k stage, it can be useful for determining if the bevel has been set, or in other words, to determine if the edge has been established. The rest is refinement, and if you haven't been using a strop, then you really need to prior to shaving. Stropping is an art in itself. Often neglected in our present obsession with hones. What are you spreading the Sharpening Supplies green compound on? This should be followed by a plain leather strop in any case.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Everything starts with a good bevel. Without a properly set bevel, all further effort is wasted.

See Newbie Honing Compendium | Badger & Blade .

Within, you will find links to setting the bevel, honing with film, and the pasted balsa progression and maintenance. Even your Dovo "Best", unless it is really wonky, will likely end up being beaten into submission if you aren't afraid to attack it with the big guns. That means coarse media to bring the bevel nearly in full length, and then progressing finer so that when you have the bevel fully set the full length of the blade, you are at the 1k-2k range. I will reiterate. In fact I will expand. Without a GREAT bevel, you will absolutely positively not get a great edge, maybe not even a useful edge. There is no wiggle room on that.

There are those who will recommend using tape. I am not one of them. The spine is just as much part of the bevel as the edge. You need to cure what ails the spine just like the edge. It might end up not being pretty, but pretty don't shave, and you can pay extra and get lots of pretty if that is important to you, if you prefer jewelry to tools. Just sayin.

Finally, don't be too reluctant to send it out, if you can find someone who will hone it.

 

[Steve56]

Words of wisdom @Slash McCoy, especially for new razors that have had the edge made with the spine off the wheel at manufacture; the spine and bevel need to wear into ‘congruence’ with each other. At least for my lineup. Manufacturers would have thinned the spine if they intended tape to be used, Portland Razor actually did this for reasons related to available bar stock I believe.

Tape has legitimate uses; soft iron omote on kamisori, un-hardened framebacks, especially interchangeable blades, decorated/gold spine, and correcting bevel angles of course. Pros (paid) use tape because they don’t want spine wear to show up on the wonky blades that get sent to them, and I’ve had a few myself. If someone sends you their grandfather’s razor that‘s been abused, you can’t change the appearance by brute force geometry correction, you tape the heck out of it. That’s OK, it’s just making the best out of a bad situation.

 

[Seveneighth]

That uneven wear seems to be common with those Dovo Bests. (My personal suspicion is the manufacturing process. They stamp out the blanks.) Then they hone them on a convex coticule, apparently.

I have honed 4 of them - all had wonky geometry like that.

1) The first I hit hard on synthetic. It kept the ugly look but came up a treat. Ugly as an unmodified Gold Dollar but OK to shave with.
2) Then a more experience honer explained to me how to torque the razor as you make the X stroke. You increase the rotational contact as you make the stroke. Where the spine concaves you increase torque on the edge and vice versa. It's tricky because as you move up through the progression you have to lesson the torque proportionately. The result was a razor that looked like it had a perfect bevel but that shaved beautifully. It's a pain - you have to concentrate 10 times as hard but you end up taking off a lot less steel.
3) I dropped and chipped one razor. Bread-knifed it, started from scratch, and honed in a new bevel. This one shaves amazingly.
4) Then I tried a convex coticule. This was the easiest solution. The convex stone follows the geometry of the razor. You hardly have to pay attention. Easy. The trouble is you are then stuck with refreshing on a convex stone and with a convexed coticule.

I made a convex Shapton 1K and a convex coticule. I use them for really problem razors when I can't be bothered to deal with them in a more considered and skillful way.

I learnt a lot from honing Dovo Bests, consequently I have a bit of a soft spot for them.

 

[Slash McCoy]

That uneven wear seems to be common with those Dovo Bests. (My personal suspicion is the manufacturing process. They stamp out the blanks.) Then they hone them on a convex coticule, apparently.

I have honed 4 of them - all had wonky geometry like that.

1) The first I hit hard on synthetic. It kept the ugly look but came up a treat. Ugly as an unmodified Gold Dollar but OK to shave with.
2) Then a more experience honer explained to me how to torque the razor as you make the X stroke. You increase the rotational contact as you make the stroke. Where the spine concaves you increase torque on the edge and vice versa. It's tricky because as you move up through the progression you have to lesson the torque proportionately. The result was a razor that looked like it had a perfect bevel but that shaved beautifully. It's a pain - you have to concentrate 10 times as hard but you end up taking off a lot less steel.
3) I dropped and chipped one razor. Bread-knifed it, started from scratch, and honed in a new bevel. This one shaves amazingly.
4) Then I tried a convex coticule. This was the easiest solution. The convex stone follows the geometry of the razor. You hardly have to pay attention. Easy. The trouble is you are then stuck with refreshing on a convex stone and with a convexed coticule.

I made a convex Shapton 1K and a convex coticule. I use them for really problem razors when I can't be bothered to deal with them in a more considered and skillful way.

I learnt a lot from honing Dovo Bests, consequently I have a bit of a soft spot for them.

I don't favor that approach, but many do. It works when you get the hang of it. Me, I prefer to make the razor cooperate with me, to conform to my demands, and I don't care how badly battered or bruised it gets in the process. It's not a horse or dog or wife. It is just a tool. I put it to a coarse honing surface and make it true. If it simply isn't possible, then it gets tossed. I don't have time for convex coticules and such. And then it wouldn't work on my lapped balsa. Should I convex my balsa strops? LOL. I don't care if the bevel faces are of inconsistent width along the length of the edge. Doesn't matter, as long as there is SOME bevel at every point along the razor.

Personally I think the "Best Quality" razors are the rejects. When a novice grinder really screws one up, the master grinder nods in the direction of the "Best" basket for export to the US. Americans will buy anything, apparently. And the junior grinder knows he darn well better shape up and start turning out some decent blades pretty darn quick if he wants to keep his job. So it would seem, anyway. Okay, I made all that up. But I do automatically associate "Best Quality" with "defective". If a razor can't simply be laid on a flat honing surface and made shave ready, IMHO it is defective and in need of repair or exchange/refund or a one way trip to the trash can.

I do avoid entry level Dovos these days though, after 3 lemons in a row. I love a Bismarck or a BL or a Prima Klang however. They are dead sweet to hone and to use.