Touch-Ups vs Rehoning

[JPO]

After allot of testing and honing over the years i could not quite figure out why i in most cases got more consistent, and better results if i did what i consider more of a rehone instead of a light touch-up.

After you shave and strop, the edge gets pushed back and out of alignment. The strop is able to realign the edge only to a certain extent. If the edge has undergone plastic deformation, it is physically impossible to fully realign the edge completely. If you bend a piece of metal past it's plastic yield capacity, you would need to bend it past a certain point for it to go back to it's starting position.

This is a typical example of what will happen wen you just do a light "touch-up"

This is a fresh Damasteel edge before shaving.

This is one part of the blade after one shave, and stropping. The dark areas around the "dents" is where the strop have managed to partly allign the edge.

After several shaves this will start to look ugly, but you will still be able to get a comfortable shave.

So what is the problem with just doing a light touch-up?
When these "dents" along the length of the bevel is honed on an abrasive flat surface, you will first hone off the high spots. So, unless you remove enough material to get behind these micro chips that will develop as you start to hone, you will end up with a less ideal edge.

This is one part of the edge where the high spot on one side have been flatten, but a chip have not developed yet. This is too weak to hold up during a shave, and will thus probably fail during the first shave, and give you those typical weepers.

As these high spots are honed off, you will typically see micro chips like this. Since a natural stone with slurry have been used, the inside of the chip's edges are rounded, so you will probably not be able to feel them.

A touch-up might mean different things to different people. The point is that doing frequent touch-ups on something like a finishing stone might not fix the underlying issue of edge wear. It might extend the time for the next "deeper" refresh.

I also think that if you do a light touch-up, it might be a good idea to strop the razor good before going to the stones.
This might also be relevant if you use balsa frequently. Stropping on linen/leather might be beneficial to do before and after the balsa. Balsa is also soft enough to round off the inside edges of micro chips. Hence, the reason why you might be able to maintain the blade for so long without feeling the edge degradation.

This question comes up allot ; "can i maintain my edge with only one stone"
In my opinion yes, and no. In most cases the edge becomes to fragile before you get past the chip in a timely manner. You can get past this by edge jointing etc. However, owning a mid-range stone (4-6k range) makes it allot easier.

I have tried multiple times to have a small finishing stone, like e.g. a coticule or a slate in my bathroom and use it before each shave, but i was never able to get what i consider a grate edge, like the starting point i had. This might explain part of the problem.

 

[lightfoot]

One thing that has vexed me for a very long time is the damage a contaminated strop can do to the edge. I find this to be especially problematic on linens strops. It seems like little flakes of steel get imbedded into the weave and really do a number on the apex unfortunately. This is why I will do a full Rehone more often than not. That being said I don’t necessarily always go back to a 1000 grit stone however.

I have had some success cleaning the fabric component but it gets re-contaminated all too soon…

 

[Darth Scandalous]

One thing that has vexed me for a very long time is the damage a contaminated strop can do to the edge. I find this to be especially problematic on linens strops. It seems like little flakes of steel get imbedded into the weave and really do a number on the apex unfortunately. This is why I will do a full Rehone more often than not. That being said I don’t necessarily always go back to a 1000 grit stone however.

I have had some success cleaning the fabric component but it gets re-contaminated all too soon…

In Iwasaki's pamphlet he says that the steel build-up on a linen strop will actually polish the edge further. I always wondered if that was really true.

 

[JPO]

One thing that has vexed me for a very long time is the damage a contaminated strop can do to the edge. I find this to be especially problematic on linens strops. It seems like little flakes of steel get imbedded into the weave and really do a number on the apex unfortunately. This is why I will do a full Rehone more often than not. That being said I don’t necessarily always go back to a 1000 grit stone however.

I have had some success cleaning the fabric component but it gets re-contaminated all too soon…

If i am not setting a bevel, a so-called rehone might just be going back to something like a 3-4k. If i can get away with a slightly higher grit i might do that, depending on the razor i hone.
I am not saying going back to 1k is wrong. In principle the same amount of steel needs to come off.
Linen does attract allot of nasty stuff that compromise the edge. I have one strop that i use exclusively during honing, and others i just use pre/post shave. They still attract a little dirt, but i seems to help.
The fragile steel does have a short and hard life
The steel gets pushed back, bent and abused. This also causes strain hardening, which makes the steel more brittle. It will also behave differently on the stone. So, cutting back the steel a little to get to solid steel is required in most cases, if you want a durable edge.

 

[JPO]

In Iwasaki's pamphlet he says that the steel build-up on a linen strop will actually polish the edge further. I always wondered if that was really true.

I would assume that might be the case if you have a strop loaded with abrasives.

 

[Darth Scandalous]

I would assume that might be the case if you have a strop loaded with abrasives.

I'd have to go back and look but I think he was talking about plain linen.

 

[ZeelandsRoem]

Interesting thread, with two good recommendations:

I also think that if you do a light touch-up, it might be a good idea to strop the razor good before going to the stones.

However, owning a mid-range stone (4-6k range) makes it allot easier

I have a few questions to make sure I get some details:

1. Did you strop once more to make sure that area is no longer improving?
2. How many laps did you do on the strop? I know there are other factors which should be take into account, such as strop length, for example, but strop counts is just a starting point.
3. Do you know what's the bevel angle on that razor? And to a less extent, was it honed with or without tape?
4. Out of curiosity, would you be interested in jointing the edge and see how it looks like after that, before going back to the stones?

Thank you in advance!

 

[JPO]

Interesting thread, with two good recommendations:



I have a few questions to make sure I get some details:

1. Did you strop once more to make sure that area is no longer improving?
2. How many laps did you do on the strop? I know there are other factors which should be take into account, such as strop length, for example, but strop counts is just a starting point.
3. Do you know what's the bevel angle on that razor? And to a less extent, was it honed with or without tape?
4. Would be interesting to joint the edge and see how it looks after that. Are you considering this?

Thank you in advance!

1. This was just one example. I have seen this type of edge misalignment on many highly refined edges. In principle, after you have plastic deformation it is physically impossible to get the edge perfectly aligned with a strop.
Once the steel stress passes point 2 it will not return to equilibrium. The strop does a decent job, but it's not perfect.
More stropping might have improved the alignment.

2. I am not sure how many laps i did. This is just one example. This is a blade with a hardness of around 59 (stated by Böker), so it is on the soft end of the hardness scale relative to some other blades. I actually think it is softer then that based on the Damasteel table for hardening and tempering.
3. The bevel angle of this razor is approx. 18 deg. No tape was used.
4. Jointing on a soft stone, like an 8k superstone can be quite useful. This can actually help realign the edge if done properly. A hard stone will not work the same. As you cut into a soft fine abrasive you are able to do allot more then a strop to get a straight and aligned edge. It is not if you should joint that should be discussed, it is how, and when, in my opinion.
This is one strong argument in my opinion to joint the edge before doing a rehone/touch-up.

Since this was an expensive blade i actually did not use anything coarser then an 8k. However, it was a little more time consuming job, and the edge needed to be joined/killed a few times to avoid an unstable edge caused by a fine stone at this stage.
As you can see, jointing also affects the sides of the bevel, which not only makes a smooth straight line in 2d, it also works i 3d. It is hard to capture this with this microscope. The dept of view makes this look a bit strange when the apex is in focus.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Yes, impact edge damage goes much deeper than we can see with average magnification, short of SEM.

Years ago, I managed a lab where we routinely raised filed off serial numbers from steel. The steel deformation was much deeper than the bottom of the stamp and were easily “raised” 2-3 millimeters deeper than the completely filed off number, sometimes much more.

You can drop to a lower grit stone, an aggressive 8k or lower depending on damage or as said joint the edge straight and bring the bevels to meeting at the straight edge.

If you joint the edge, then look straight down on the edge you can see if jointing has removed enough of the edge to remove steel past the bottom of the chip.

You do not remove a chip, you remove all of the edge past the bottom of the chip. Sometimes well past the chip.

 

[Kyle89]

I used to go back to my 12k for refreshes (and still do sometimes) but my edges have trained me that my "refreshes" lasted longer the farther I'd go back into a progression. I either attributed it to bad stropping or other variables. Probably a mix of a few different things. I like going back to 5k nowadays.

 

[Wid]

Most times I'll do a whole new honing if I feel it needs it., it's rare I just refresh an edge with just a finisher. I rarely let any razor get to the point of needing to be touched up, I randomly pick a razor if I want to hone and go from 1 or 3K

 

[lightfoot]

I'd have to go back and look but I think he was talking about plain linen.

I haven’t had a chance to read his pamphlet again either. One thing that I need to keep in mind is that if I see edge failure after a linen component (dirty or otherwise) is that this could certainly point to the possibility of compromised steel that didn’t survive the stropping effort. But it’s the abundance of rogue scratches all over the bevel that I only get with my linen component that really bugs me.

More often than not I spend a lot of time honing and finishing with synthetics and I have found recently that if I just go straight to leather I don’t get the rogue scratches and the random chip. That’s not to say that there aren’t other explanations for potential problems that surface after stopping on the fabric component….

 

[Gamma]

First, it's shaving - taking hair off our faces. Edge perfection isn't required.
A non perfect edge can shave just as well as one alleged to be perfect. It's hair. We're not splitting atoms.

But - my razors don't wear evenly from toe to heel. So if one spot has X amount of wear, and the next spot has 2X amount of wear, we face the first question - Will a finisher, or abrasive compound, etc, be able to 'level' things out perfectly?
The second question is - will it really matter if a 'touch up' does or does not level things out perfectly?
The answer to that depends on the blade, the geometry, my skill with a touchup, the capability of the stone/abrasive, and my expectations.

Obviously, people have been shaving for a loooong time just fine without knowing the alpha and beta angles of their bevels. Pastes, barber hones, touch up stones, etc - have been in service for as long as razors it seems. So there's a lot of evidence to speak for the 'touch up' being a valid 'thing'.

I have a couple razors that get touched up on compounds. I would say that I prefer to put them back on the hones after 4-5 cycles on the charged strop or paddle.
I have a few other razors that get finishing stone touchups. This is more complex because there are different stone types involved and various 'levels' of 'touchup'. I would say that I usually want to re-hone those razors from bevel-up after a 3-6 'touchups'.

But generally, I usually just rehone a blade. Might be after one shave on a fresh hone, might be after 45 shaves. It all depends on unknown variables and mood. Heavy on the mood. I don't need a microscope to hone, no one does. The edge tells me what's up whenI am shaving. I can usually tell when stropping actually.

I have stones, I like to hone, honing is meditative, so it's a daily event here.

Yes, a linen strop loaded with bits of steel can add to polishing...some styles of sharpening on Jnats involves working the mud, Tojidoro, to achieve the polish. The mud contains bits of steel, stone, water, etc.. .it's all in the mix and part of the process. When we are talking about a linen strop, remember - the bits of steel are nearly or actually microscopic. They embed and then they oxidize. Steel contains iron. Iron oxide is FeOx...black and red compounds regularly used to polish are made from two forms of FeOx. If a linen has a bit of grey to it, you might see a bump in polish. Yep, that was in Iwasaki's pamphlet. He mentions the strop blackening... to me that is more dirty than useful so I keep stuff clean.

 

[JPO]

First, it's shaving - taking hair off our faces. Edge perfection isn't required.
A non perfect edge can shave just as well as one alleged to be perfect. It's hair. We're not splitting atoms.

I agree. However, it can also be allot more if that is what you are into. It can be as simple or as complicated as YOU like it to be. So, i think people can figure this out for them self. If it does not interest you, that is also fine.

I don't need a microscope to hone, no one does.

I don't need one either, and most of the time i just use a loupe. Most of the time it can be a distraction, but a useful learning tool. This is not what the thread is about. If only one person found this interesting, and helpful, it was worth my time posting it. What others do with it is up to them. There is allot of things on this forum i don't care about, but i don't need to read it either, and make comments about something that is not important to me.

Obviously, people have been shaving for a loooong time just fine without knowing the alpha and beta angles of their bevels.

People have been doing allot of things for a long time with what they had available at the time, with the resources they had.
What is the point here, and how does it relate to this particular subject?

The edge tells me what's up when I am shaving. I can usually tell when stropping actually.

I can't tell what's up with the edge when i am shaving. I can feel that something is not right, but i need some visual clues to figure out why it is not shaving like i like it to. Most of the time it is just trial and error. Most of the time you can't see it, and you just need to take a few steps back, and start over again. Allot of times this relates to the subject of this thread. I have not removed enough material.
It can be frustrating if you spent allot of time on say a jnat, only to find out you should have spent a few more minutes on a coarser stone in the beginning.

 

[Gamma]

I agree. However, it can also be allot more if that is what you are into. It can be as simple or as complicated as YOU like it to be. So, i think people can figure this out for them self. If it does not interest you, that is also fine.

It's always about honing/shaving. It's a shaving forum, after all. It doesn't need to be complicated. Wanting to complicate it is another thing. People are entitled to follow their own mindset, and people are also entitled to speak their mind without needing anyone's approval.

I don't need one either, and most of the time i just use a loupe.

More people with microscopes should say that more often. People who don't like my comments are free to not read them, or not respond to them, or block me if they want to. All good, welcome to the internet.

People have been doing allot of things for a long time with what they had available at the time, with the resources they had.
What is the point here, and how does it relate to this particular subject?

I'll try to simplify things so they can be understood more easily. The concept of 'touching up a razor' has been a working concept for a long time. Probably since razors existed. So it's not to be dismissed in favor of confirmation biases or needing to complicate simple things. If it works, it works and obviously touching up a razor has worked and still works for countless people.

I can't tell what's up with the edge when i am shaving. I can feel that something is not right, but i need some visual clues to figure out why it is not shaving like i like it to. Most of the time it is just trial and error. Most of the time you can't see it, and you just need to take a few steps back, and start over again. Allot of times this relates to the subject of this thread. I have not removed enough material.
It can be frustrating if you spent allot of time on say a jnat, only to find out you should have spent a few more minutes on a coarser stone in the beginning.

It's a razor. If it isn't working after it was working then there are limited reasons why that might be happening. The basic plan would be to hone it, strop it, and shave with it, People who try that find that it works every single time. The point, in case it isn't clear, is that simplicity will work just as well as any other approach.

I have a lot of magnification at my disposal, including an Olympus BHM that I use quite often. I understand its value as a tool, and I also know all too well how it can make things seem more significant than they really are.

If someone's razor isn't quite 'there' , edgewise - after it being fine for a while... my suggestion would be to put it on a finisher for a quick session. Usually works. Might need to go back 1 step first. No harm in trying less abrasive first though.
I would not suggest "go spend $1000 on a microscope and imaging system to look at it before touching it up".
Because the actual solution for a blade not cutting - is honing it, not looking at it.

 

[lightfoot]

One thing that has taken me an extremely long time to comprehend is that there are circumstances in which compromised steel will only reveal itself is during the shave itself. I wish there was a way to always identify compromised steel during the honing process. A lot of it can be seen while honing in fact. But there are still those occasions in which only the shave itself seems to expose weak steel for some reason…

 

[JPO]

One thing that has taken me an extremely long time to comprehend is that there are circumstances in which compromised steel will only reveal itself is during the shave itself. I wish there was a way to always identify compromised steel during the honing process. A lot of it can be seen while honing in fact. But there are still those occasions in which only the shave itself seems to expose weak steel for some reason…

You can see this quite easy during the honing process if you use magnification. It will behave differently. I see this on most factory new razors. The simple solution is just to hone the blade a few times. However, having a tool to see it makes it much easier. In most cases i think i would spend less time setting a primary bevel on a new razor then it takes to fix it.

Overworked steel can go quite deep. It is the same reason diamond plates don't work too well with razors. The sub-surface damage goes much deeper then the striations. The issues only show up late during the finishing stage, or when you shave.

Large grit jumps can also to some extent lead to the same issues. It is not enough just to get to the bottom of a groove.

Failing edges during a shave might also relate to the topic of this thread.
Ideally you also need to remove the red area below the scratch to get to good steel.

 

[Christian1212]

I have found for my coticule edges I can do a touch up (want to day 50 ish strokes but it is really just when it feels right). I would get 15-20 shaves before needing to touch up and could touch up 5+ times before needing to go back to a 2k.

Jnat edges I can get more shaves but not sure about how many touch ups I could do before needing to go back. Usually on those I am having fun with asano slurry or some other random experiment.

Would say for me if a touch up is able to last 10+ shaves it is worth it for me. Whenever that doesn't happen on a razor though I will go to the 6k glass stone then progress in a random way.

 

[JPO]

I have found for my coticule edges I can do a touch up (want to day 50 ish strokes but it is really just when it feels right). I would get 15-20 shaves before needing to touch up and could touch up 5+ times before needing to go back to a 2k.

Jnat edges I can get more shaves but not sure about how many touch ups I could do before needing to go back. Usually on those I am having fun with asano slurry or some other random experiment.

Would say for me if a touch up is able to last 10+ shaves it is worth it for me. Whenever that doesn't happen on a razor though I will go to the 6k glass stone then progress in a random way.

That is quite similar to what I do with most blades too.
It will also vary, depending on the razor and steel.
Some blades have also been maintained with balsa with good results.

I am not trying to say touch-ups don't work.

 

[kayvee]

What about touch ups using stropping strokes instead of honing strokes? Are they even a thing?