The next step

[Basil]

Hello all!

Been a very long time since I’ve posted on these forum.

Since the last time I posted on here I’ve been enjoying my straight shaves and have been honing those razors on my two coticule stones.

I’ve had the same stones and razors for a few years now so I’m pretty sure I have unlocked the potential of these stones. Which brings me to my question.

What would be the next step for after a coticule? Would you recommend going to an Escher to finish? Or would a j-Nat be a better step?

 

[stone and strop]

Either will step up your edge, assuming you get a good jnat. If you buy an actual Escher it will be fine.

 

[Basil]

Either will step up your edge, assuming you get a good jnat. If you buy an actual Escher it will be fine.

Yeah I’m leaning a bit towards a jnat since finding an actual Escher might be hard.

 

[stone and strop]

Finding them is not as hard as paying for them

 

[Basil]

Haha very good point. I remember ten years ago I thought the price was steep I can only imagine now!

 

[ajduplessis]

If you get edges that cleanly and smoothly cut your whiskers, why bother with more stones? I’ve developed an edge that works with my razors and my whiskers. They last long and require little maintenance.

Nothing wrong with more stones, nothing wrong with more razors either. I would skip the stones and get more blades...

Either way welcome to the rabbit hole.

 

[Twelvefret]

If you get edges that cleanly and smoothly cut your whiskers, why bother with more stones? I’ve developed an edge that works with my razors and my whiskers. They last long and require little maintenance.

Nothing wrong with more stones, nothing wrong with more razors either. I would skip the stones and get more blades...

Either way welcome to the rabbit hole.

Well stated.

 

[NPV]

You could also try a translucent or black Arkansas after your coticule.

 

[dundak]

If you can get great edges off your coti why bother with anything else. I find them super comfortable.

Nothing wrong with more hones if you have the scratch to satisfy the itch. What aspect of your edge are you looking to improve?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Basil]

If you can get great edges off your coti why bother with anything else. I find them super comfortable.

Nothing wrong with more hones if you have the scratch to satisfy the itch. What aspect of your edge are you looking to improve?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yeah starting to wonder if I do need anything else. I get great shaves from the coti but wanted to try and eek out that last little bit of sharpness. Will probably just get some paste and use that.

 

[Twelvefret]

Yeah starting to wonder if I do need anything else. I get great shaves from the coti but wanted to try and eek out that last little bit of sharpness. Will probably just get some paste and use that.

I've enjoyed getting a Thuringian from Timber Tools. I bought the smaller one and hold under dripping water as a touch up. So, I just have two stone, a Coticule like you and the Thuringian.

 

[Basil]

I've enjoyed getting a Thuringian from Timber Tools. I bought the smaller one and hold under dripping water as a touch up. So, I just have two stone, a Coticule like you and the Thuringian.

Does the thuri add anything when used after to coti?

 

[Twelvefret]

Does the thuri add anything when used after to coti?

It would be purely speculative to say. So, please don't buy a Thuringian on account of me.

I had read that folks use one or the other for a finisher and I wanted the experience.

 

[Christian1212]

What I recommend is sending 3 of your razors out to get a jnat edge, thuri edge, and an Arkansas edge. Natural stones are all different so you might not get the same edge as what you get from someone else. Although you will get an idea of the difference between the different edges from the different stones can be like.

Would be even better if you could send your razor to be honed on the stone you are considering buying if the seller was willing.

 

[Twelvefret]

What I recommend is sending 3 of your razors out to get a jnat edge, thuri edge, and an Arkansas edge. Natural stones are all different so you might not get the same edge as what you get from someone else. Although you will get an idea of the difference between the different edges from the different stones can be like.

Would be even better if you could send your razor to be honed on the stone you are considering buying if the seller was willing.

Isn't that really like sending your razors to someone that does not know your beard and expecting a good result? This is a oft repeated suggestion.

I've bought razors from honers who used Japanese Natural and Shapton stones. All had to be redone.

 

[Christian1212]

Isn't that really like sending your razors to someone that does not know your beard and expecting a good result? This is a oft repeated suggestion.

I've bought razors from honers who used Japanese Natural and Shapton stones. All had to be redone.

I will say this is something that worked for me personally. I have gotten few different natural stone edges (jnats, coticules, thuringian, and arkansas). From those edges I got an idea of what natural I liked more to what natural I liked the least amount. After I have acquired 3 of those 4 types of natural stones, the edges I got were decently similar to what I got from the others. Me personally ranking my favorite stones to shave with are Jnat>killer coticule>arkansas>"average coticule">thuri.

I will add in though that you really want to get your razor honed by someone you believe to put a great edge on razors. I did have 2 edges I did not like at all but it came from someone who I think hones a lot of razors. I think the people that are honing a ton of razors might have a few razors not actually shave ready be sent out. I am happy to recommend who I trust to put on a good edge if anyone was curious to trying out stones if anyone is interested though.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Jnat is a very general term. Yes there are some excellent razor finishing Jnats out there, but there are also excellent bevel setting jnats out there and excellent mid-range jnats out there and excellent sword polishing jnats out there and completely worthless (but really pretty) jnats out there. And most sellers will sell you every one of the above and tell you they're exactly what you're looking for. I've bought razor finishing 5+++++++++ fine and 5++++++++ hard Jnats and gotten muddy stones that could bevel and I've gotten rock hard stones that can put a laser edge on a razor that won't hold up on all but the highest angled and hardest steeled (1 in 50 or so) razors... buying Jnats for yourself requires winning the powerball jackpot level of luck, or a WIDE net (and tons of cash), or YEARS of research (and tons of cash), or to put yourself entirely in the hands of the very small number of sellers who are trustworthy, experienced, familiar with razor honing, and willing/able to deal in english with people in the US (or whatever country you're in). I've bought maybe 50 Jnats. Got a dozen or so that could finish well (with caveats... usually meaning they only like certain razors/Steels). Maybe six that finish most razors decently (but aren't an exceptional edge). And two that give a superior edge to most razors. And those two? I paid someone far more experienced with jnats than myself a TON of money for. Most of my good Jnat razor finishers fall in the first category (Tricky to hone on and/or selective of razors).

Because of that, unless you've got a Jnat "guy" who's your friend and is going to help you out and give you a deal, I think they can be more hassle than they are worth unless you're willing to dip a LOT more than your toes into learning about hones and about honing. Not saying you can't gamble on them and get a thousand dollar stone your first purchase... but for everyone who does, ten thousand people don't and nine thousand of them won't realize they didn't for years.


Thuringians? If you get a real one, they're pretty much all good, and all fairly equal. Slightly different speeds, feedback sensations, very minor differences in the shave perhaps... but in general, they're a super consistent stone. Problem is they're a commonly faked stone. Everything from Welsh slates to Vermont slate to Old two sided carborundum and india hones are sold as "Escher"s... and some of them look pretty similar to Thuringians to an untrained eye. We had a guy posting pictures of an india stone he was shaving off of (many years back) and insisting it was an Escher he had scored at a flea market. It's a circus out there.

Coticules... Yes... a coticule can be an upgrade to a coticule. Probably the most easy to find and ID ones are the Les Latneuses... which can be pretty good. And generally a Les Lat edge is going to be superior to your average coticule. But truth be told, only one "Les Latneuses" hybrid is in my elite grouping of coticules. Coticules that improve on almost any edge on almost any razor. These stones are gems... and they're hard to find because no one who knows they have them is looking to get rid of them. I believe I only ever sold one... it was tiny and to a member here who had done me favor after favor and wanted to try one of my favorite coticules. I'm pretty selfish, but I don't see even more generous people willingly letting these coticules go. They're damn good. In my case they are all vintage... mostly unbacked (almost never natural combos), and have a look to them that is different from your standard coticule. I've spoken about them before and usually called them "Paddle coticules"... now don't be confused, not all paddle coticules are of this quality... I've had some downright mediocre ones, but most stones that are this quality come in that form in my experience. The one unusual one is a two sided Les Lat (I think... it's a vintage that looks a lot like les lat) with a green hybrid on one side and a brown on the other. But take heart... they DO come up quite a bit on eBay... and don't get fought over the way Eschers and Les Latneuses and even old Hard Arkansas usually do. So they can still be had for very good prices. My recommendation is look for a coticule that looks really old, really hard, and really heavily used (dirty, scarred, etc... NOT DISHED... these stones are usually so hard, they're practically impossible to dish).

Pierre Du Sud Ouest aka mystery green hone:
I bought one of these stones a decade ago. It was like a Thuringian and a Les Latneuses coticule had a baby. Les Lat Swirling, Immaculately soft thuri texture and edge. Posted about it here a bunch and no one had any clue. Eventually we decided it was a weird coticule that for some reason didn't really work like a coticule usually does with slurry. Several years later I find a couple more and bring it back up. Eventually someone suggests it's a french or maybe italian stone and says they see them often in flea markets in Southern France. Some more tracking and I find an Italian (if memory serves) member at another forum who collects them and he knows about as much about them as I was told already, but confirms where they are found. He happens to be selling his collection down so I snagged one or two from him... as well as a few over the years. Basically they are a better than perfect Thuringian. Take the softest yellow green you've ever seen, make it faster, easier to use (if that's even possible) and finer. These are like a dream stone for beginner razor honing. But they are RARE (apparently unless you're able to go to flea markets in South France and Italy)... and they look a lot like both green Thuringians and Les Latneuses coticules... two relatively distinct and very expensive hones... so you'll often be bidding against someone who likely thinks he's buying a Y/G Thuri or a Vintage Les Lat and is prepared to pay hundreds for it... but if that doesn't happen, you'll get them for cheap coticule prices (people bid on them as "probably a coticule" if all else fails). So they can be had for a steal if you get lucky enough to come across one.


Trans/Black arkansas. Good stones. I like going with Vintage examples (already broken in nice and I can't prove it, but I believe they are better quality). Not the easiest to use or the fastest for razors... mainly because everything razor honers are taught to do (technique developed for coticules and Norton whetstones) when starting out is terrible technique for an arkansas... but I wouldn't doubt someone who was skilled with them telling me he could beat ANY edge with a good arkansas edge. They have theoretically almost limitless potential but are a VERY skill-based stone to use. It's almost depressing how cheap you could get these a decade ago. Razor honers didn't even consider them. You could pick up gorgeous 150 yr old 8" translucents for under fifty bucks. Now you're looking in the $200 range, sometimes more. But a steal occasionally shows up, the same as with any other stone. It's dirty enough and pictures are bad enough you're the only one who knows what it is. And if you get that lucky, snap them up. They're great hones.

 

[Twelvefret]

I will say this is something that worked for me personally. I have gotten few different natural stone edges (jnats, coticules, thuringian, and arkansas). From those edges I got an idea of what natural I liked more to what natural I liked the least amount. After I have acquired 3 of those 4 types of natural stones, the edges I got were decently similar to what I got from the others. Me personally ranking my favorite stones to shave with are Jnat>killer coticule>arkansas>"average coticule">thuri.

I will add in though that you really want to get your razor honed by someone you believe to put a great edge on razors. I did have 2 edges I did not like at all but it came from someone who I think hones a lot of razors. I think the people that are honing a ton of razors might have a few razors not actually shave ready be sent out. I am happy to recommend who I trust to put on a good edge if anyone was curious to trying out stones if anyone is interested though.

I think if we decide to stick with using a straight razor, we figure out how to use whichever stone/medium we have to make it work. Personally, I use 3M films to start and finish with either the Coticule or Thuringian. I've got pasted balsa and Chromium Oxide, but have not used them in months, just the stones.

 

[Christian1212]

Personally I haven't had any problems finding a jnat that finishes really well. Just buy from reputable sellers and you will be fine. Although they can be tricky to learn and master. Just don't go on ebay and buy the first "maruka 5+++ hardness jnat" you will get what you pay for. I do believe a lot of thuringians are very similar and nice finish just not for me. I personally have about 3-4 razors in my normal rotation atm. I like using my coticule edge for anytime I have less then 2-3 days of growth. Anything more then I usually prefer my jnat edges, and if I ever go a long time without shaving I use my 8/8 gryphon razor with jnat edge. Just my preferences and opinions though. (I also really liked the arkansas edge I got from a friend but just preferred the other edges.)

Everyone has their different opinion on what stone they like. That is why I suggest sending out different razors to different people to try out different edges. This way you see what you like, not what random people on the internet like. When it comes to buying stones, buy from reputable dealers that offer refunds and I am sure you will be fine there. I wouldn't shop for stones on ebay unless you knew what you were looking for.

Also I would try out the naniwa 12k edge or other synthetic edges( maybe even film edges some love those). No guessing games buying a synthetic.

 

[Twelvefret]

Yes, those dealer with which I have dealt have full refunds if not satisfied.