Been trying to get an edge 9n a joseph rodgers wedge. Two layers of tape on the spine for angle, and still cannot get an edge on the darn thing. Started with 15u film, and determined this is not aggressive enough. Went to 400 w/d paper and still cannot get even a rudimentary edge. If I look along the edge, I can see a reflection where the bevel angles are not meeting. What is the secret to these thick grinds? I just keep wearing out paper with no reduction in the apparent edge? I would think I would get some change after a pack of paper and nearly 2 hrs....
stubborn wedgie
- Thread starter ScottinAZ
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Pix could help.
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- #3
Following this thread with interest as I am having a similar problem with a 5/8 near wedge.
Had been using only one layer of tape, but am not convinced the bevel will be set in my lifetime...
Had been using only one layer of tape, but am not convinced the bevel will be set in my lifetime...
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- #5
As requested, here are some pics of the edge, and the razor in question.
Closeups are at 25x on a USB microscope camera.
Backside of the blade, looks to be hitting the edge nicely
Front side of blade, again, appears to be getting to the edge.
Found this, Awwww crap.....
And this....
This is the edge on shot, as can be seen, there is a definite flat plateau between the bevels. this does not appear to be diminishing with any amount of work, and is the real subject of my difficulties.
Here are some full on shots of the razor. Just rescaled her this morning, hence wanting to get the edge in shape.
for those technical minded folks, here are the measurements of the blade....
Spine width: .232 with tape, : .241
Blade width at heel: .700
At mid point: .685
at toe: .690
Closeups are at 25x on a USB microscope camera.
Backside of the blade, looks to be hitting the edge nicely
Front side of blade, again, appears to be getting to the edge.
Found this, Awwww crap.....
And this....
This is the edge on shot, as can be seen, there is a definite flat plateau between the bevels. this does not appear to be diminishing with any amount of work, and is the real subject of my difficulties.
Here are some full on shots of the razor. Just rescaled her this morning, hence wanting to get the edge in shape.
for those technical minded folks, here are the measurements of the blade....
Spine width: .232 with tape, : .241
Blade width at heel: .700
At mid point: .685
at toe: .690
Looking at the honing marks, it looks to me as if the area actually meeting the hone stops short of the edge - as though the edge is perhaps convex (honed freehand?) or has previously been honed with more layers of tape and a steeper angle?
Update: The second chip shot shows what I mean - there's a lighter area that looks like the part that is meeting the hone, and it stops way short of the chip, even.
Update update: In the edge-on shot, the shiny line won't start diminishing until the honing actually reaches it. See the darker band just behind it? I think that is as-yet unhoned metal, and you just need to keep removing more until you get there.
Update: The second chip shot shows what I mean - there's a lighter area that looks like the part that is meeting the hone, and it stops way short of the chip, even.
Update update: In the edge-on shot, the shiny line won't start diminishing until the honing actually reaches it. See the darker band just behind it? I think that is as-yet unhoned metal, and you just need to keep removing more until you get there.
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1. You are right in using 2 pieces of tape on the spine - it will make the honing go much quicker.
2. Even though most Sheffield steel is pretty soft and easy to work with, sometimes you'll run into one with harder steel that's a PITA to set a bevel on. I just did an old I. Barber last week, and it took an hour and a half on the 1k norton to set the bevel, whereas it would usually take 20-30 minutes.
3. Technique is key when setting bevels on old wedgy Sheffields. Hone the razor in 3 parts - the heel, the middle, and the toe. Put heavy pressure on the razor and put pressure on the face of the blade, so pressure hits the edge as well as the spine. I use probably five pounds of pressure on the blade at this stage.
4. Hone, on one side, the heel, the middle, and the toe, biasing your pressure to these areas. Do equal amounts of work on all quadrants - say, 50 circles at the heel, 50 in the middle, 50 at the toe...then flip it over and do the same to the other side. Repeat this until you can cut wet arm hair all along the edge.
5. On rare occasion, I'll use 3 layers of tape on the spine, but your razor is pretty narrow and that might adversely affect the angle of the bevel and provide a lesser quality edge.
2. Even though most Sheffield steel is pretty soft and easy to work with, sometimes you'll run into one with harder steel that's a PITA to set a bevel on. I just did an old I. Barber last week, and it took an hour and a half on the 1k norton to set the bevel, whereas it would usually take 20-30 minutes.
3. Technique is key when setting bevels on old wedgy Sheffields. Hone the razor in 3 parts - the heel, the middle, and the toe. Put heavy pressure on the razor and put pressure on the face of the blade, so pressure hits the edge as well as the spine. I use probably five pounds of pressure on the blade at this stage.
4. Hone, on one side, the heel, the middle, and the toe, biasing your pressure to these areas. Do equal amounts of work on all quadrants - say, 50 circles at the heel, 50 in the middle, 50 at the toe...then flip it over and do the same to the other side. Repeat this until you can cut wet arm hair all along the edge.
5. On rare occasion, I'll use 3 layers of tape on the spine, but your razor is pretty narrow and that might adversely affect the angle of the bevel and provide a lesser quality edge.
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- #8
ok, took Daflorc's advice and went to ground on the razor this morning. Results are that I have an edge, although not exactly as good as I would like. It is sharp as hell, but not quite what I would call shaving sharp. Passes the AHT 75% of the time. No chance on the HHT, although even my Doc226 honed blade will not pass the HHT with mine or my wifes hair.
progression as follows: 320, 400, and 800 papers, 15,5,3,1 u films (all wet with windex and done on marble) 100 laps each Crox and FeOx on balsa, and finally 200 laps on leather
here are some more closeups:
I was not able to get a focused shot edge on, this is due mostly to having a bevel at this time.
My feelings are that either I don't have the skill to get a really good edge on this, or, also likely is that the angle is a bit too obtuse for good shaving. I figure it at around 20 degrees or so, given the measurements that I gave last night.
progression as follows: 320, 400, and 800 papers, 15,5,3,1 u films (all wet with windex and done on marble) 100 laps each Crox and FeOx on balsa, and finally 200 laps on leather
here are some more closeups:
I was not able to get a focused shot edge on, this is due mostly to having a bevel at this time.
My feelings are that either I don't have the skill to get a really good edge on this, or, also likely is that the angle is a bit too obtuse for good shaving. I figure it at around 20 degrees or so, given the measurements that I gave last night.
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Let's try to work this one out and get that edge in shape.
1. How many pieces of tape have you put on the spine?
2. When I said 5lbs of pressure, that's on a 1,000 grit stone to help remove metal. After your bevel setting stone (or films) your pressure should be far less. At the equivalent of a 4k stone, by the end of that stone you should be using very light pressure. By 8k stone, almost blade-only pressure, then blade-only pressure to finish on that stone. Anything past 8k is blade-only pressure.
3. Are you using a fresh outer layer of tape as you progress up the grits to finer grit?
4. What is the grit equivalent of the last film you used? I use stones and don't know what the grit rating is for film. But to pass a HHT, I'd imagine you need to get to at least 8-10k, whichever film that is.
Some blades can be very stubborn, so don't get discouraged. As you are using film, I suggest you PM Seraphim, as he is very familiar with how to use films effectively. I imagine, like stones, going back to the one that is just previous to your finisher is in order.
1. How many pieces of tape have you put on the spine?
2. When I said 5lbs of pressure, that's on a 1,000 grit stone to help remove metal. After your bevel setting stone (or films) your pressure should be far less. At the equivalent of a 4k stone, by the end of that stone you should be using very light pressure. By 8k stone, almost blade-only pressure, then blade-only pressure to finish on that stone. Anything past 8k is blade-only pressure.
3. Are you using a fresh outer layer of tape as you progress up the grits to finer grit?
4. What is the grit equivalent of the last film you used? I use stones and don't know what the grit rating is for film. But to pass a HHT, I'd imagine you need to get to at least 8-10k, whichever film that is.
Some blades can be very stubborn, so don't get discouraged. As you are using film, I suggest you PM Seraphim, as he is very familiar with how to use films effectively. I imagine, like stones, going back to the one that is just previous to your finisher is in order.
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- #10
Around 100 laps is enough for some fairly thin, hollow ground razors in my admittedly limited experience. For a heavier grind you have a lot more metal to remove to max out each grit of film. Your pics look like there are still scratches from at least the 15 micron if not the 400 grit sandpaper all the way to the edge. By the time I get to 3 micron and especially at 1 micron, at least close to the edge is looking pretty mich mirror-like.
In this one, a hollow ground gold dollar, the heavier scratches have been polished out from near the edge of the bevel. I used at least 100 laps on each of 12, 5, 3, 1, 1 on 1 sheet of paper then 1 on 3 sheets of paper. The lighting does not show how reflective the bevel is. The heavier scratches are from a 600 grit diamond plate I used to rough set the bevel before using slash's "raise a burr" method to set the bevel again on 12 micron paper. I think it was 150 or 200 half-laps on each side to raise a burr then about 50 up and back laps before moving on to the 5 micron. The bevel is very narrow. This picture is magnified about 160-200x when I'm looking at it on my ipad.
In this one, a hollow ground gold dollar, the heavier scratches have been polished out from near the edge of the bevel. I used at least 100 laps on each of 12, 5, 3, 1, 1 on 1 sheet of paper then 1 on 3 sheets of paper. The lighting does not show how reflective the bevel is. The heavier scratches are from a 600 grit diamond plate I used to rough set the bevel before using slash's "raise a burr" method to set the bevel again on 12 micron paper. I think it was 150 or 200 half-laps on each side to raise a burr then about 50 up and back laps before moving on to the 5 micron. The bevel is very narrow. This picture is magnified about 160-200x when I'm looking at it on my ipad.
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I plan on finishing with 1 micron paper on 2 layers of printer paper next time. The 3rd sheet seems to detract from the keenness a little too much. Maybe when I get around to trying some 0.3 micron film I'll need a 3rd layer of paper underneath.
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- #13
1, 2, and 3 you did right. Chaloney is right in that the scratch pattern looks pretty deep still. You should use that heavy pressure all the way up to the equivelent of 1,000 grit. On the equivelent of 4,000 grit, you should use light pressure, but not blade only pressure, at least for the first 1/2 of your time at that grit.
It sounds like you finally got the bevel set, which is the hardest part. Do a bit of experimenting with grits 4,000 and higher. I feel like you're very close to getting a good edge, from what it sounds like.
Patience is a virtue. You're on the right track just persist through the issue as you are already doing. Spend more time at the 1k level, hone on it longer than you think you need to to really make sure the bevel is set.
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- #16
success...... FINALLY
went back to a 12u film (by accident) and polished out the deepest scratches. The camera im using has very harsh light, and therefore shows scratches VERY easily. The finish is mirror on this thing. Went through 12u, 5u, 3u and 1u films, and finished on CrOx and FeOx followed with 200 laps on leather. Will now pass the AHT 100%, Will see about shave test later on this morning. I have several to test.....
went back to a 12u film (by accident) and polished out the deepest scratches. The camera im using has very harsh light, and therefore shows scratches VERY easily. The finish is mirror on this thing. Went through 12u, 5u, 3u and 1u films, and finished on CrOx and FeOx followed with 200 laps on leather. Will now pass the AHT 100%, Will see about shave test later on this morning. I have several to test.....
Brilliant! You are an inspiration to all those others of us cursed/blessed with stubborn wedges
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