Sharp Blade, Bad Shave. Bevel Angle???

[Whiskey79]

Hey guys,

Looking for some feedback on why a Solingen I've honed up is shaving like crap. Without going into the stones used, b/c I don't think that's the issue, I finished up this particular blade and it seemed sharp as hell. Tree topped, HHT pass, etc. I don't always get hung up on sharp tests, but just as background, it seemed "there". Was pretty confident it was going to shave well. It didn't. Tuggy as hell. Went down a few stones, re-honed, seemed similarly sharp...shaved like a dog again. Confident it's not bevel. I finally gave in and busted out the calipers, and came up with a bevel angle near 20 degrees, which is obviously higher than normally desirable, but since there is no bright line test, it's just another data point to consider.

What I'm interested in...is why does a razor that takes a good edge (i.e., it's clearly sharp), not shave well? What are the geometrical considerations that would lead to such a small variance in degrees of angle to translate to a bad shave? You'd think just adjusting the angle manually with your hand, e.g. moving the spine further or closer to face, would easily compensate for a few degrees of undesirable bevel angle. I can understand why a certain bevel angles wouldn't hold an edge, but I don't see why that would translate to an instantly bad shaving experience. I could be wrong on that, but intuitively it doesn't make sense to me.

So, the above is a long winded way of asking: why precisely, does a razor that is sharp, but "out of spec" on bevel angle, shave so poorly?

Thanks for any feedback!

 

[SliceOfLife]

20° always feels dull to me, but with a proper finish it shouldn’t be tuggy. Tugging usually means not finished enough. 4K JIS or 8K mesh and below are “tuggy”.

And both of those edges will pass a root out HHT, and hell I can treetop hairs with a razor off of a beveler.

Root in HHT is a little more telling so if you’re getting a pass there that’s a more interesting scenario... but that assumes relatively fine hair. Even root in will pass on a fairly dull razor if your hair is coarse enough.

Based on what you’re describing I would think the stone you are using is exactly the issue but I don’t have the razor in my hand so that’s just my impression from what you described being the razors behavior.


Alternately if the razor is a razor shaped object, with steel that’s not good enough to hold an edge that’ll perform similarly to what you describe where it may pass HHT and then fail spectacularly and be extremely tuggy in the shave. What’s the razor?

 

[SliceOfLife]

And to get into your question about bevel angle... too HIGH of an angle wont cause an edge to fail. A high angle is more durable. But too high an angle on a modern razor may indicate its not a functional razor... and may be made of non-tool steel... which would cause it to fail even at 20*.

Further, angle makes a huuuuuge difference in sharpness. A tool at 15* is much sharper than one at 20* even if the 20* edge is much, much more refined ( lower edge radius )... shaving isn’t 100% about sharpness which is why a 10k 20* edge shaves better than a 4k 15* one (despite likely being duller), but it is a very important factor.

 

[iamryan25]

If the apex is too blunt to split hair before it starts pulling it out then it is probably not going to be a comfortable shaving experience.

The angle at the apex can only be greater than or equal to the angle defined by the blade width and spine as an angle guide.

After stropping occurs, the realized angle at the apex is probably even greater than before.

Angle is only one variable. There are other factors at play. Things like the spacing and height of the serrations at the edge, how well aligned the serrations are, temper, grind, false edge, etc. Variables that exist even if the angle is exactly where it is should be mathematically, but the razor still isn't performing as expected.

 

[Whiskey79]

20° always feels dull to me, but with a proper finish it shouldn’t be tuggy. Tugging usually means not finished enough. 4K JIS or 8K mesh and below are “tuggy”.

And both of those edges will pass a root out HHT, and hell I can treetop hairs with a razor off of a beveler.

Root in HHT is a little more telling so if you’re getting a pass there that’s a more interesting scenario... but that assumes relatively fine hair. Even root in will pass on a fairly dull razor if your hair is coarse enough.

Based on what you’re describing I would think the stone you are using is exactly the issue but I don’t have the razor in my hand so that’s just my impression from what you described being the razors behavior.


Alternately if the razor is a razor shaped object, with steel that’s not good enough to hold an edge that’ll perform similarly to what you describe where it may pass HHT and then fail spectacularly and be extremely tuggy in the shave. What’s the razor?

Thanks man. The razor is an ERN. It’s geometry, from a pure straightness perspective is spot on. Very little roll , if any, is required. It’s actually quite nice, which makes it all the more perplexing why it’s not shaving. I am going to go back to hones and see if I can dial it in more. I had come off a shobu initially, but just re-honed and finished on a Nani 12k. Edge seems similar in sharpness relative to first honing, but we’ll see next shave I suppose.


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[Slash McCoy]

20deg is way out of my comfort zone. Bevel angle is not the only thing but it can be A thing. Plenty of other issuec can work against you, too. Sometimes an edge right off the bevel setter will treetop fairly well, but it does so like a saw and not like a knife. Then funny thing, but when you move up to a 4k or 8k it stops treetopping and only resumes treetopping when you have a 12k edge dialed in perfectly. Sharpness tests are important, yeah, but they are not the final hoop. That would be the shave test. And that 20deg razor and the edge that you put on it, together conspired to trip you up on the shave.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Thanks man. The razor is an ERN. It’s geometry, from a pure straightness perspective is spot on. Very little roll , if any, is required. It’s actually quite nice, which makes it all the more perplexing why it’s not shaving. I am going to go back to hones and see if I can dial it in more. I had come off a shobu initially, but just re-honed and finished on a Nani 12k. Edge seems similar in sharpness relative to first honing, but we’ll see next shave I suppose.


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There is a lot you can do to maximize the sharpness you get from the 12k. A finish of pull strokes and short x strokes, for instance. Or the lather trick. You could also go for the pasted balsa finish as per the pasted balsa thread, but it will only do just so much toward making a 20deg bevel into a great shaver. In fact when I honed a couple of ZYs and used the balsa finish, I still found the edges to be quite uninspiring compared to the very sharp balsa finished Gold Dollars I was using most of the time. And the stock ones in turn were less awesome than the modded ones I ground down to 16.5 degrees or so.

I think slurried naturals are even more sensitive to bevel angle being too obtuse than synthetics, actually. So for the fat bevel, yeah the 12k could represent an improvement over the shooby-dooby Jnat. But it won't work miracles.

 

[Steve56]

If it tugs, it isn’t sharp enough, and a lot of times razors feel ‘sharp’ or irritating because they aren’t sharp enough or the edge properly developed. What does it look like under a loupe?

Also, send it to Alfredo and ask him to examine your edge and refinish it. If that solves the problem, you have your answer very conclusively.

 

[lightfoot]

What you’re describing can definitely be frustrating. I’ve resolved similar issues by dropping below 1K (400-600). Worked at that level with light pressure sparingly and just rehoned.

 

[LJS]

Is the edge degrading quickly or same/poor all the way through? Just wondering if there is a steel issue or something like wire/false edge messing with you.

 

[Whiskey79]

Is the edge degrading quickly or same/poor all the way through? Just wondering if there is a steel issue or something like wire/false edge messing with you.

Just sucks all around. I went down to 8k last night and then refinished on Nani 12k, and went about 30 fabric / 100 leather on strop. Gonna test shave it again later. If it still sucks I’ll have to go back to bevel. Even though I’m not thinking that is issue, sometimes we just miss the bevel I suppose. Seemed solid, but maybe I tricked myself lol.

Prob not the steel. ERNs are usually quality steel AFAIK.


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[Steve56]

I’d be glad to take a look at it and give you an edge for return postage.

 

[Whiskey79]

I’d be glad to take a look at it and give you an edge for return postage.

Thx Steve. I’m going to hit it with one more round, from bevel set and see where it is. If it’s still whacked after that I may take you up on your offer. I just shaved off the 12k and it was ok, but not where I’d like it.


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[Steve56]

If it is a Naniwa 12k, it should be great.

 

[Whiskey79]

If it is a Naniwa 12k, it should be great.

True. I mean, someone else might like the edge. For my steel whiskers, it’s gotta be real sharp. I’ll keep you all posted on how it goes. I’m actually going to hone it tonight to probably by tomorrow I should have another shave on it. I did double check bevel angle. It is higher, 19.5*.


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[Steve56]

Your steel whiskers are no match for steel. You have a bad edge.

 

[Whiskey79]

Well, it’s rehoned through 8k (1,3,5,8). Tree topping arm hair easily without stropping, so it’s apparently sharp. We will see how it finishes.

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[Whiskey79]

So the re-hone did the trick. 1,3,5,8, koma, tomo. Didn’t spend much time on 1k, but maybe it gave it the little kick it needed.


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[ajduplessis]

First Solingen I’ve seen with a 20 degree bevel, especially a ERN. If its 20 it will likely not shave great..

 

[Whiskey79]

Spine width is 5.16mm and blade width is 15.24mm. If you toss those into a calculator you’ll get around 19.5*.


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