R41 (pre-2011) vs R41 (2011 and later.

[Hex]

I think that I have the dates correct. Pre 2011 is full open comb, 2011 and later is the 1/2 open comb, 1/2 bar model.
I have read about different versions of the 2011+ but that does not interest me.

In my fumbling hands, the R41, I think pre 2011 is the one I have, a full open comb, is the best razor, bar none.

And try as I might I have not been quick enough to snag a 2nd one.
So, I thought I would give up and try the "new" R41..
Does anyone have both and use them regularly ?

How do they compare ?

thanks

 

[Badger Bill]

I don't have them myself, but I hope to get an R41 one of these days.......... I keep putting it off though.

That being said, I have done a lot of reading on this, and my understanding is that the 2010 R41 is quite mild and tame. The 2011, on the other hand, is EXCEPTIONALLY aggressive and will nick you or worse given even the slightest opportunity. The 2013 is is supposed to be slightly more tame than the 2011, but still WAY WAY WAY more aggressive than the 2010. Neither 2011 or 2013 are razors to be taken lightly, nor are they similar at all to the 2010.

Of course, anyone who has real first hand experience should feel free to correct anything I've said in error.

- Badger Bill

 

[Novacula Acuta]

^^^^ This is my understanding also. I have the 2011 R41 and although it is the most aggressive razor I have used, it is possible to get an irritation free shave with focus and practice (I don't dare go ATG with it). If I remember correctly, the pre 2011 R41 has a similar head design to the Fatip/Joris head currently produced. All three of those heads have slight differences, but are similar. I saw a picture on a thread a while ago comparing the three and pointing out the differences, but can't find it now. You might want to pick up a Fatip to see for yourself, they are relatively inexpensive. I use mine regularly, much more often than the R41.

 

[aimsport]

I have both and use them regularly. Last two shaves were with the 2013 r41, but my daily is typically the r41 2011.

Both the 2011 and 2013 will deliver daily BBS shaves. The elusive nature of the BBS will be a thing of the past. Your skin will be more calm than you dreamed possible with that degree of closeness.

But r41 razors are full participants in the risk/reward equation...

The r41 2013 is an aggressive razor that is better with a sharp blades using a traditional gradual beard reduction approach. The BBS it delivers is amazing, lasts plenty long, just not as long as with the r41 2011. It is the most civilized aggressive razor that I have used. It will bite but you have to be doing something wrong, like pressing too hard or bouncing because of a floppy hold or using a bad lather. With practice your third pass will become a touch up pass and your face will be more calm than with many "mild" razors. It is a great razor. Be warned that it is mild enough that it is easy to overdo your shaves, and yet aggressive enough that if you put in a little care your BBSs will cease being elusive. Your skin will be extremely calm... which seams counter intuitive that an aggressive razor is easier on your skin... but in the case of the r41 this is certainly true.

The r41 2011 is an aggressive razor that is more like a blade holder than a safety razor. Some shave it steep angled where the razor performs best with stiff smooth blades that are moderately sharp. Others shave it shallow angle which seems to work best with the sharpest smoothest blades they can find. I also know of some shaving it steep angled with ultra sharp blades with success, but I have not heard of anyone succeeding with shallow angle shaving with only moderately sharp blades. (With that combo the skin is at too much risk of bunching up in front of the blade and getting whacked off. The blade exposure is so great on an r41 2011 that some thinner blades tend to flex increasing likelihood of cuts. The r41 2011 will deliver a longer lasting BBS than the 2013. You will finish your shave in two passes with touchup, not three, and your skin will be even more calm than with a 2013 r41. Unless your lather is perfect and your technique excellent the shave will feel uncomfortable or worse, there will be bloodshed. When starting out many r41 2011 shavers are motivated by the results much more so than the relative comfort of the shave. But mastered, the r41 2011 is extremely smooth and comfortable. Not being comfortable is the first clue to me that I am doing something wrong. Yes it is possible to achieve the "did I forget to load a blade" zone with the r41 2011. It took me many many months to achieve that. The key for me was differentiating between zero pressure and the hold. You can hold a razor as tight as a vise grip but still apply near zero pressure on the face by how you guide the razor. No, I'm not recommending a vise grip hold, but a confident one. The r41 prefers being guided along the skin with the lightest pressure but with a confident hold. For me success was mastering the precision of the path and angle I guided the blade. Shaving groggy is not an option.

There are plenty of youtube videos of people shaving with an r41. Please watch them, but do not be scared off by the bloodletting. Instead, watch carefully which approaches deliver great bloodless shaves. There are a few who are using the handle almost parallel to the face and get a great shave without bloodshed. There are some that are fine until they try a third bloodletting pass. Some switch between steep and shallow as they move over their face. Watch carefully and you will see great technique steep angled (like geofatboy) delivering a great shave and great technique shallow angled delivering a great shave. If you intend to master the r41 2011 I can not recommend this extra homework enough.

Steep angled r41 2011 shaving has an unusual delayed BBS effect. The tiniest remaining stubble might trick you into thinking you've fallen a hair short of a BBS (pun intended)... stop, do NOT keep buffing. Rinse and be done. Sometime ten or twenty minutes after you finish your shave the BBS will fully materialize. This effect is even greater using moderately sharp blades.

Crappy lather with mediocre soap is an r41 path to bloodshed and redness. Use the best lather you have, preferably a top rated soap that has clay... at the quality level of a Mike's or Napa Soap Ocean Blend. If you must go cream I have had great success with KMF Key Lime Moisture Shave. While clay-less, with sufficient water it is more than slick enough to do the job.

Using the r41 2011 to shave is training yourself to think of the blade cutting firmly at the base of the hair while riding over the skin. You must participate in achieving that zone or you will pay. It is unlike any other razor I own. Some have said it is part way to being a straight razor shave. You may or may not like that excitement or the attention this razor demands. However, if you master it, you will have BBSs that last hours longer than any other safety razor, a clean shaven face with the skin so calm it looks like it hasn't seen a razor in weeks. Once you achieve that you are probably hooked for life having the r41 2011 in your top rotation.

The r41 2011 is still available from US stores but has been discontinued according to the manufacturer. I have stockpiled five 2011 and a few 2013s... as you never know with Muhle when the r41 will become yet another razor.

I hope this helps you. Good luck.

YMMV.

 

[creekwalker]

aimsport, that's a great summary. I'm putting a portion of it (along with the URL for this page) in my shaving notes. I have a couple of questions about the r41 2013:

1) Can it be made to work well with either a steep or a shallow angle?

2) Does the blade (as with the 2011) tend to flex more than with most razors? (I'm afraid it would probably queer it for me, if the answer to that question is "yes.")

 

[engblom]

1) Can it be made to work well with either a steep or a shallow angle?

It can work with both, but you need a sharp blade to succeed.

 

[Codfish]

I was contacted by a member recently to hopefully address questions about the differences between the various models of the Muhle R41. I will do my best to do so. First, let me say that I do not represent Muhle, Andreas or Christian Muller, the General Manager of the compant. I was able to interview each of them after I posted a review of the R41 2011 in July of that year. Much of what I know about the R41 is a result of the questions I asked Andreas at the time.

The first question I will address is wheter the 2011 model is still produced. It is no longer manufactured. However, it is still available from U.S. vendors due to complications experienced by the U.S. distributor. The R41 sold by U.S. vendors is the 2011 model. The R41 2013 sold by vendors in the U.K. is 2013 model.

Now the hard part. There were three models of the R41 produced in recent years: the R41 2010, 2011 and 2013.

The 2010 was an OC model that was relatively mild. It was so much like the R89 that Muhle decided to modify it--producing the 2011 model sometimes referred to as "The Beast". It is arguably the most aggressive DE razor in existence. Members should be cautioned that it is not for everyone. It has a very large amount of blade exposure and must be used with caution, especially with thinner blades.

The R41 2013 model has a smaller amount of blade exposure and is much better behaved as a result. It is still extremely aggressive, but I found that it can be used freely, and without the level of concentration demanded by the 2011 model.

Both the 2011 and 2013 employ a tooth-comb design. This is a hybrid that has qualities of both open-comb and safety-bar razors. In the 2013 model, safety and ease of use are greatly enhanced. Blade exposure has been reduced by roughly 50%. Here is a review of the 2013 model.

I will try to answer any additional questions that members might have concerning the three versions.

NOTE: This Muhle video shows the two owners of Muhle using the R41 to shave. Like early adopters of it, you will see that they use an extremely shallow blade angle, which I recommend.

 

[mjclark]

Thanks for this thread and the excellent information
I just persuaded my kids to get me a 2013 R41 (thanks kids!) and from this thread it sounds like it's exactly what I want.
I am a great fan of the FaTip and am looking for a razor which can rival it in aggressiveness but combined with some degree of smoothness (the FaTip is also beautifully smooth).
When I just want ruthless BBS-dealing aggression, which demands great prep and top technique and will mercilessly punish the slightest lapse in councentration, I already have a Pakistani Mariner, a Canadian Thin Handle Old Type and of course Ericsson's Wizard:

The Canadian Thin Handle behaves exactly as you describe the 2011 R41.
I find shaving with it to be quite a tense experience but it delivers an amazing DE shave.

 

[Codfish]

I have both and use them regularly. Last two shaves were with the 2013 r41, but my daily is typically the r41 2011.

There are plenty of youtube videos of people shaving with an r41. Please watch them, but do not be scared off by the bloodletting. Instead, watch carefully which approaches deliver great bloodless shaves. There are a few who are using the handle almost parallel to the face and get a great shave without bloodshed. There are some that are fine until they try a third bloodletting pass. Some switch between steep and shallow as they move over their face. Watch carefully and you will see great technique steep angled (like geofatboy) delivering a great shave and great technique shallow angled delivering a great shave. If you intend to master the r41 2011 I can not recommend this extra homework enough.

Steep angled r41 2011 shaving has an unusual delayed BBS effect. The tiniest remaining stubble might trick you into thinking you've fallen a hair short of a BBS (pun intended)... stop, do NOT keep buffing. Rinse and be done. Sometime ten or twenty minutes after you finish your shave the BBS will fully materialize. This effect is even greater using moderately sharp blades.

Steep blade angles are not recommended either by the manufacturer, Gillette engineers, or by most early users of the R41 2011. YMMV.

 

[gclyn]

NOTE: This Muhle video shows the two owners of Muhle using the R41 to shave. Like early adopters of it, you will see that they use an extremely shallow blade angle, which I recommend.

Just watched the video, that's about the angle I use on my Joris as well. The only razor I use a steep angle is my Feather at around 45 degrees.

 

[Codfish]

Just watched the video, that's about the angle I use on my Joris as well. The only razor I use a steep angle is my Feather at around 45 degrees.

I'm looking for the Gillette engineers' research right now, and will post it as soon as I locate it. To my mind, steep angles do loss slicing and more scraping of whiskers.

 

[xillion]

Here are my side by side comparison images of the 2009 R41 (Merkur sourced) open comb head and the 2011 Mühle toothcomb R41.

 

[mjclark]

What a great video - even though I don't speak German, you get a real sense of their enthusiasm.
I'd love to see a film of other razor manufacturers shaving with their own products.
Also I hope my new R41 is assembled by that pretty blonde woman

 

[aimsport]

aimsport, that's a great summary. I'm putting a portion of it (along with the URL for this page) in my shaving notes. I have a couple of questions about the r41 2013:

1) Can it be made to work well with either a steep or a shallow angle?

Yes. A smooth blade at least moderately sharp will work steep angle. A very sharp smooth blade is necessary for the shallow angle.

2) Does the blade (as with the 2011) tend to flex more than with most razors? (I'm afraid it would probably queer it for me, if the answer to that question is "yes.")

The 2013 cut the blade exposure by about half. I do not see blade flex an issue with the 2013. To see the 2011 blade exposure Xillion posted a great closeup in this thread.

 

[aimsport]

Steep blade angles are not recommended either by the manufacturer, Gillette engineers, or by most early users of the R41 2011. YMMV.

Making pianos does not make one a concert pianist. Here are some youtube videos that prove that manufacturers' advice is wrong. It does not apply universally, especially with the r41.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1T4ygda-4s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rAYlxtaJyA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWR-sktpQIA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBD6TUkRb0o

In fact if you watch all the posted r41 videos carefully, people are more likely to get into trouble with a shallow angle, than when steep, or when attempting third and fourth full passes.

 

[rgraham]

I just completed a two pass DFS with a 2013 and a Med Prep blade. I used what I would call an extremely shallow angle. So much so, that much of the time, it felt as if I wasn't cutting any hair. Super light touch. Nick free, and close enough for me. Very little touch up. I find if I try for the super BBS, that's when I will get a weeper or two. It's pretty close as is anyway.
I've tried the steeper angle, but it just wants to dig in, and that's not a good thing.

 

[Codfish]

Making pianos does not make one a concert pianist. Here are some youtube videos that prove that manufacturers' advice is wrong.

http://shavenook.com/thread-dorco-st300-not-for-every-razor?pid=304647#pid304647

In fact if you watch all the posted r41 videos carefully, people are more likely to get into trouble with a shallow angle, than when steep, or when attempting third and fourth full passes.

"Here are some youtube videos that prove that manufacturers' advice is wrong."

I find it hard to believe that the designers and manufacturers are "wrong" and that youtune posters are "right".

We disagree, plain and simple. YMMV. Members need to find the approach that works best for them, and realize that opinions on the matter differ widely. There is no "right" answer, other than what works best for you. Perhaps we as reviewers should point this out more often.

 

[aimsport]

NOTE: This Muhle video shows the two owners of Muhle using the R41 to shave. Like early adopters of it, you will see that they use an extremely shallow blade angle, which I recommend.

First, I believe the owners of Muhle completely missed the breakthrough significance of the r41 2011, otherwise they would not have discontinued it. Elsewhere in this thread I posted a sampling of videos of wetshavers quite successful with the r41 and clearly steep angled. You say the Muhle owners are shallow angle fans. That is fitting given they presided over the premature demise of the r41 2011.

But, I don't think they are shallow angle fans. I am SO glad you reminded me of that video. Be scared all users of Muhle products. Products you love can and are changed without notice. Why, because possibly their very best work can be misunderstood by the Muhle owners themselves and discarded. The evidence they might not get it?... their own video.

We can all understand that pen and typewriter manufacturers are not automatically authors. This apparently also applies to making razors.

In the video Codfish referenced:

At 4:08 the lather is scary bubbly and thin. any r41 shaver is doomed starting with lather like that.

At 4:21 the razor handle is kept at a nearly fixed angle and the angle with the skin varies from shallow to extremely shallow. In contrast, once one has found an optimum shallow angle you stick with it if you want to succeed with the r41. r41 users learn to guide the razor to keep that optimum blade angle, not let the skin pick the angle. The skin is clueless.

Also at 4:21 this is a WTG pass without relathering. Really?! Might get away with that with a DE89L but not the r41.

The Muhle owners not only vary between various shallow angles some extreme, they shave steep angled as well.
At 4:25 the angle looks clearly steep. So the angles used seem more random than deliberate, an especially bad thing for the r41.
4:36 looks like timid buffing. Also an r41 no-no.

Plus their shaves don't appear close and their skin appears stressed and tired. Ouch. I understand possibly why if they've been doing a bunch of product testing or extra takes for the video. An r41 will deliver the calmest skin of all DEs I own. But not used the way it's used on the video.

The r41 2011 demands you pick the angle that is optimum for you and maintain that through the shave. This razor needs the very best lather and fewer passes, and only a tiny amount of touch up. It demands one pass less than you're used to. Done right the r41 2011 delivers one of the finest shaves you'll get from any DE.

Sadly, I don't think the owners of Muhle got it and the headline of the r41 saga is:

"Muhle discontinues the revolutionary r41 2011"
​

Now I think I know why.

 

[aimsport]

Boy, I really stirred the pot this time, didn't I.

 

[mjclark]

Boy, I really stirred the pot this time, didn't I.

Ha ha - Muhle controversy!
This thread has really got me looking forward to the 2013 R41 now!
I havn't used the 2011 or the 2013 yet, but the descriptions in this thread certainly make the 2013 sound like an improvement on the 2011 - a small sacrifice in aggressiveness in exchange for an increase in smoothness and forgiveness.
That's what I love about the FaTip, it's pretty aggressive but will only mess you up if you disfrspect it. Once you get to know it you can relax and really enjoy the shave.
And that relaxed enjoyment is a quality I look for in DEs - if you want a shave that delivers guaranteed 2-pass BBS but requires faultless prep and technique, you'd be much better off with a half-blade shavette.