Question about soap as lubricating agent on hone

[gumbo]

I have had great success with my CF stone as a final finisher with water only. I do about 100 laps after my coticule and it seems to keep a smooth edge but refine the keenness a bit. But when I add some soap (usually just dial hand soap liquid) to the water mixture and hone on that, I get a pretty strong dulling effect. Enough that after 50 laps I could no longer pop hairs off my arm! I ended up resetting the bevel on my chosera and working dilucot back up to using the CF with just water and again, keen edge.
Why did the soap have such a dulling effect, and for those that use soap, have you ever experienced that kind of dulling effect?

 

[Disburden]

If you use an oil on the CF stone it will give an even better finishing edge, it will take 300 strokes or more though.
The dulling effect with soapy water is odd, the edge may have just tipped up on the stone and dulled the bevel.

 

[Wid]

Never used soap with water but have used oil on the CF. I know you have a thuri also, try using that between the coticule and Charnley. Also try a nice light oil istead of water. I find 100 to 150 strokes are sufficient for most razors..

 

[mdarnton]

I'm going to say something controversial and if anyone wants the long version of the story, I can write it up later.

I have 30 years of experience sharpening Japanese woodworking tools on Japanese water stones and will say without reservation that you will get better results without slurry, and with the absolute minimum of liquid, in spite of what everyone says and does. Slurry increases cutting speed, not edge quality. I believe your soap may be increasing the slurry-type action and thickness of whatever's floating around on your stone, and that's what's damaging your edge. If you're going to insist on using something beyond the most minimal of liquid on your stone, at least don't push the edge you're trying to sharpen constantly into it--pull the edge backwards, away from accumulated the pile of trash that's damaging the edge, not into it.

 

[Kentos]

I'm going to say something controversial and if anyone wants the long version of the story, I can write it up later.

I have 30 years of experience sharpening Japanese woodworking tools on Japanese water stones and will say without reservation that you will get better results without slurry, and with the absolute minimum of liquid, in spite of what everyone says and does. Slurry increases cutting speed, not edge quality. I believe your soap may be increasing the slurry-type action and thickness of whatever's floating around on your stone, and that's what's damaging your edge. If you're going to insist on using something beyond the most minimal of liquid on your stone, at least don't push the edge you're trying to sharpen constantly into it--pull the edge backwards, away from accumulated the pile of trash that's damaging the edge, not into it.

You are referring to the finishing stage only I assume? I actually have a harder time finishing on water only on my unknown Jnat, so I finish up on light tomonagura slurry. I will try trailing edge on water to see if it helps.

 

[Seraphim]

Instead of the thick slickness afforded by adding dish liquid to your finishing water, try whipping the soapy water into frothy suds. Suds act like lather does while shaving-it adds cushion and "floats" the blade for a more refined edge.

 

[tinkersd]

I use just water with 3 or 4 drops of dish soap and it breaks the suface tension of the water and allows better contact with the stone, IMHO, that's all.
It helps to try all different methods to find the one that works best for you, and THAT'S al plan!!!

tinkersd

 

[tomjr]

i use soapy water but very little soap and always shake it into oblivion before use. i use liquid hand soap, very little in a spray bottle. have not tried edge trailing, must give this a go.

 

[Gamma]

About the slurry thing above - I can say without reservation that using slurry on a Jnat does refine the edge.
Not on Synthetics though, ESP at higher grits.


About the soap on a Charnley.
Only use enough to break the water's surface tension.
I've had tremendous success with soap on a Charnley and Arks.
Glycerine works too.
If you're dulling on soapy water, then maybe you have too much soap, and/orthe stone isn't dead flat.

 

[gumbo]

Thanks. I can't do much on it in the next few days with the 'rents here for Christmas, but as soon as things calm down I'm going to re-lap, use less soap, and see how it goes.
As always, I appreciate the comments, and Merry Christmas all.