Great thread.
I love how you can see Jim's grey hairs:
I love how you can see Jim's grey hairs:
Problem area - at 50x
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- #42
The palm stropping seemed to be effective. The blade has certainly lost some sharpness over six shaves, but it was not much extra work to get a very fine shave.
After six shaves:
The next image shows the same area after palm stropping, three strokes on each of the four sides. There is still some soap scum on the coating and edge, but palm stropping appears to remove much of it.
Mostly I hold with the idea that blades are quite cheap, so trying to extend their life is not worthwhile. But I can see where palm stropping every 2-4 shaves might make sense to some. Palm stropping seems to be especially effective at wiping soap residue off of the grind. Could fouling on the grind create problems by increasing shaving friction? Could blade makers could develop a blade that resists soap residue?
A couple of years ago I eked out around a dozen shaves with a feather blade. I have wondered why that particular blade lasted so long. The razor might have played a role: I believe I used a 1970s Tech, vs the short-comb NEW I am using now. Folks have remarked that NEW razors seem to be more sensitive to blade quality. Maybe this has something to do with blade angles and soap residue?
After six shaves:
The next image shows the same area after palm stropping, three strokes on each of the four sides. There is still some soap scum on the coating and edge, but palm stropping appears to remove much of it.
Mostly I hold with the idea that blades are quite cheap, so trying to extend their life is not worthwhile. But I can see where palm stropping every 2-4 shaves might make sense to some. Palm stropping seems to be especially effective at wiping soap residue off of the grind. Could fouling on the grind create problems by increasing shaving friction? Could blade makers could develop a blade that resists soap residue?
A couple of years ago I eked out around a dozen shaves with a feather blade. I have wondered why that particular blade lasted so long. The razor might have played a role: I believe I used a 1970s Tech, vs the short-comb NEW I am using now. Folks have remarked that NEW razors seem to be more sensitive to blade quality. Maybe this has something to do with blade angles and soap residue?
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- #43
The seventh shave went surprisingly well. The surprising part was that the blade felt dull, but did not produce the irritation I usually get from dull blades. Usually I toss my blades after 2-4 shaves, to avoid that. The lather surely helped: Calani Classic Havana is a nice soap. But I am more and more convinced that much of the irritation I expect from well-used blades is due to soap fouling rather than edge deformation.
This makes some sense in light of the development of modern blades. As I understand it, early attempts at stainless blades felt much rougher than carbon steel blades, and were considered unacceptable for shaving. Wilkinson tried a PTFE edge coating in 1961, and solved the problem. My theory is that the PTFE has just as much to do with skin-metal glide as it does with cutting beard hair. Accumulating soap residue interferes with that glide, leading to irritation and ending the useful lifetime of the blade.
Here is what the blade looked like after the seventh shave. There is not much fouling from this one shave: perhaps the Calani creates less than the TOBS cream I was using over the weekend.
Today I tried denim stropping, three strokes on each side. I used the Levis I put on after my shave and shower. This meant taking the first picture, putting the blade back into the razor, stropping, then taking it back out for another picture.
It looks very clean: better than it did after palm stropping yesterday. If the shave goes well tomorrow, this might be a workable system for me. The razor can stay in the blade, and I could probably strop every two shaves as part of my cleanup routine. If I get another comfortable shave or two from each blade, that seems worthwhile.
This makes some sense in light of the development of modern blades. As I understand it, early attempts at stainless blades felt much rougher than carbon steel blades, and were considered unacceptable for shaving. Wilkinson tried a PTFE edge coating in 1961, and solved the problem. My theory is that the PTFE has just as much to do with skin-metal glide as it does with cutting beard hair. Accumulating soap residue interferes with that glide, leading to irritation and ending the useful lifetime of the blade.
Here is what the blade looked like after the seventh shave. There is not much fouling from this one shave: perhaps the Calani creates less than the TOBS cream I was using over the weekend.
Today I tried denim stropping, three strokes on each side. I used the Levis I put on after my shave and shower. This meant taking the first picture, putting the blade back into the razor, stropping, then taking it back out for another picture.
It looks very clean: better than it did after palm stropping yesterday. If the shave goes well tomorrow, this might be a workable system for me. The razor can stay in the blade, and I could probably strop every two shaves as part of my cleanup routine. If I get another comfortable shave or two from each blade, that seems worthwhile.
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Quick question: is the side of the blade that has the mark on it also the side that's always up in the razor? Or are you switching back and forth? I'd assume that the other side of the blade would have some residue on the edge as well and would need a little stropping as well. Although, it might not make much difference as you seem to be progressing quite well with the blade.
I also find it interesting that you're doing this with a blade that a lot of people only use twice before tossing it. Seems like a lot of people think feathers have a very short lifespan.
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- #46
Good question. I think I mentioned earlier that the sharpie mark was on the guard side of the blade. But for the jeans stropping I realized that I would have to turn it over, and it is now the cap side. I also took a look at the other side: formerly cap, now guard. It had about the same level of soap deposits as the first image from today. The denim stropping was on the marked side, and did not affect it as far as I could see.
My theory is that the unstropped side will not matter, because I am clearing soap scum off the only part that contacts my skin. I do not think jeans stropping will repair any edge deformation, and probably is not very good at removing residue from the cutting edge either. If I am right, this is all about the grind and the coated bevel.
That is probably why I am doing it. If you watch the various SOTD threads there are a few folks out there who push their feathers at least this far. I wonder if they do something to clear the soap fouling, or if it does not affect them for some other reason?
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this thread is getting even more interesting
This is fascinating. Thanks for investigating.
A few questions and observations...
How much of your blade is contacting the skin, vs the razor headcap? The way I shave, the ratio of blade contact/head contact is tiny.
I get very long blade life shaving at a low angle (hence cap contact question), and can see that the PTFE coating is totally gone after a while, while comparison with a relatively new blade mid-shave reveals no loss of performance in terms of smoothness and cutting ability. Honestly, I'm not sure what the PTFE actually does. Apparently very little for me.
Hmm...well, with my very sharp knives, stropping on cardboard or on heavy fabric appears to restore the edge to a degree. However, when it gets dulled to the point of needing touch-up on a hard Arkansas or very fine diamond stone, such stropping doesn't help a bit. So I'm not certain that there isn't a degree of wire edge retouching going on that you may not see at the magnifications used here.
I'm getting around 17-21 shaves average from Feather or Isreaeli Personna blue package blades, and (less data) about that for Astra. (Yes, I keep a tally.) When I shaved at a higher angle some years ago I got typically 3 shaves from Feather, sometimes 4 or rarely 5. The difference came when I changed technique to low angle plus pressure.
I always wipe off the blade edge with my fingers to remove all scum, and the razor too (toothbrush often), and store dry blade in a dry razor. My theory (totally unproven) is that since stainless alloys aren't corrosion-proof as some believe, damage occurs to the critical, microscopically thin edge if scum remains and attracts/holds moisture. Sheesh, who knows, if I used a container and dessicant maybe I'd get 30 shaves? (Probably not.)
What's interesting to me is the marked change in appearance of the secondary edge bevel when either cleaned or stropped. I'm wondering if what you're seeing is not actually dried soap, but a mixture including insoluble minerals in water that might actually interfere with blade cutting. At first glance, some of this looked like chipping away of the edge. Wow.
A few questions and observations...
How much of your blade is contacting the skin, vs the razor headcap? The way I shave, the ratio of blade contact/head contact is tiny.
I get very long blade life shaving at a low angle (hence cap contact question), and can see that the PTFE coating is totally gone after a while, while comparison with a relatively new blade mid-shave reveals no loss of performance in terms of smoothness and cutting ability. Honestly, I'm not sure what the PTFE actually does. Apparently very little for me.
Hmm...well, with my very sharp knives, stropping on cardboard or on heavy fabric appears to restore the edge to a degree. However, when it gets dulled to the point of needing touch-up on a hard Arkansas or very fine diamond stone, such stropping doesn't help a bit. So I'm not certain that there isn't a degree of wire edge retouching going on that you may not see at the magnifications used here.
I'm getting around 17-21 shaves average from Feather or Isreaeli Personna blue package blades, and (less data) about that for Astra. (Yes, I keep a tally.) When I shaved at a higher angle some years ago I got typically 3 shaves from Feather, sometimes 4 or rarely 5. The difference came when I changed technique to low angle plus pressure.
I always wipe off the blade edge with my fingers to remove all scum, and the razor too (toothbrush often), and store dry blade in a dry razor. My theory (totally unproven) is that since stainless alloys aren't corrosion-proof as some believe, damage occurs to the critical, microscopically thin edge if scum remains and attracts/holds moisture. Sheesh, who knows, if I used a container and dessicant maybe I'd get 30 shaves? (Probably not.)
What's interesting to me is the marked change in appearance of the secondary edge bevel when either cleaned or stropped. I'm wondering if what you're seeing is not actually dried soap, but a mixture including insoluble minerals in water that might actually interfere with blade cutting. At first glance, some of this looked like chipping away of the edge. Wow.
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- #49
No idea, and I cannot think of a good way to measure it. But any of the blade that is in contact with my skin is right next to the cutting edge. I think that is probably important. I might also mention that I use a short-comb NEW almost exclusively, so there is no safety bar.
I am not sure how I could get my angle any lower, unless I tried a technique where I press the cap into my skin and try to shave the rucked skin. But are you sure the PTFE is gone? I thought that at first, but it turned out to be a figure-ground effect and the soap scum was covering the dark stuff on the edge, which I presume is the PTFE coating.
Could be. I avoided making that claim because some folks here believe that it is impossible to strop a modern DE blade. I have not put much thought into the matter, but with the equipment I have it is easier to see the effect of stropping on the grind and bevel.
I am impressed. But of course we probably have very different beard and skin characteristics. For example I find the IP blues (Crystals) rather dull on the first shave. I can get a CCS with one, but reaching DFS is hard work. I definitely prefer other blades. As mentioned above I am not sure how I could lower my blade angle any further, but I will give it some thought.
You have more appetite for blade fiddling than I do: I prefer to leave the blade untouched until it is time to throw it away. That is probably a key difference. Anyway I agree that the edge is deformed and corroded to some degree. Prior to this thread I assumed that all of the dulling of a blade was due to this effect, but now I think soap fouling is important too.
Correct, soap scum is not dried soap. It is an insoluble mineral compound due to the reaction of saponified fats with calcium and magnesium ions in water. Distilled water should leave little or no scum.
At first the figure-ground effect fooled me into thinking the soap scum was edge damage, too. And there almost certainly is coating and edge damage that 200x magnification does not reveal. Because I do not have anything better, I am working from a combination of what I observe under the scope and what I observe when shaving.
BTW http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/265310-electron-microscope-study-of-feather-blades might interest readers of this thread. The SEM photos are fascinating.
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Hmm.. I think I'm interested to know if the razor would last longer and shave better from stropping both sides of the blade. It seems to me after thinking about it more that the difference would be negligible for most shavers. The difference between 2 shaves and 7 is not though.
As for stropping the blade it likely isn't impossible but is probably very difficult. The nice thing with western straights(possibly eastern too but I have no experience there) is the structure of the blade is such that stropping is very easy. They're designed to be stropped and honed without having to bother too much with angle. Stropping a DE blade would be like stropping a TINY little wedge. Not sure how you'd do it effectively, and it probably wouldn't matter anyways.
I'm loving this thread.
As for stropping the blade it likely isn't impossible but is probably very difficult. The nice thing with western straights(possibly eastern too but I have no experience there) is the structure of the blade is such that stropping is very easy. They're designed to be stropped and honed without having to bother too much with angle. Stropping a DE blade would be like stropping a TINY little wedge. Not sure how you'd do it effectively, and it probably wouldn't matter anyways.
I'm loving this thread.
Potentially the most important and informative thread I have read in B&B. Theories backed up by objective observations. That's how truth is revealed. Keep up the good work. Need higher magnification so to see the primarily bevel more closely. Also, I would like to see the blade BEFORE ever being used.
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Could be more important, dunno. But for me, smoothness = sharpness. I don't see much smoothness difference from one blade to another, as long as they're sharp.
Oh, and I also really like the short-comb NEW with Feathers. But mostly these days use TTO 1947, Senator OC, Milord, 1934 Aristocrat. All those work especially well with low-angle technique, for me anyway.
Uh-huh. That's it. That's what I do.
Started doing that with DE after I spent a spell of solely using Micromatics.
Then when going back to using DE too, couldn't understand why the blades weren't getting dull.
Finally realized what I was doing now was very different from what I did before.
Much less irritation too, despite more pressure. Yes, I know, counterintuitive.
Well, I wipe the blade thorougly with my fingers every time, and there doesn't appear to be scum buildup. But I just checked the half-dozen "active" blades I have in service with a 14x hand lens, and the results are a bit more spotty than I thought! Most are clear of any deposits, but a couple of them had some stuff there.
The loss of coating I'm talking about seems to happen after about 10-15 shaves or thereabouts, and it looks sort of like plastic peeling back or flaking off, extending a fair way back from the edge itself.
Re blade longevity...
Coarse, fast-growing beard. Using three full passes, and another for touchup on chin and neck, every time.
Recall the change in blade longevity from my previous experiences, which were pretty much in line with results described at B&B by others.
It's an interesting topic to explore. Anyway, my cleanup doesn't take very long, adds less than a minute.
Ah-hah! Didn't know that. I really should have known.
Since I work in ground water geology. Oh, I saw the SEM photos before and yes, they are amazing.
Despite limitations, seems there's a lot you can see with your new device.
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Yesterday, I got a photo of my skin after one of my smoothest shaves:
Fascinating thread.
Yesterday, I got a photo of my skin after one of my smoothest shaves:
What do you shave with? Pyroclastic Flow?
I get a lot more great shaves from a Feather than most report - usually ten or more. I do rinse the razor head in very hot water (steaming) for a quite a while, and from several directions, with the head loosened so the water flows over the blade really well. Then I blow off the water. I do this to heat the blade and razor head up so that the water evaporates quickly - the goal of which is to avoid corrosion. However, I wonder if soap removal may play am important part as well. I'll start looking at my blade with a loupe to see how it looks with respect to soap residue.
I also shave at the lowest angle possible for a given razor. That may play a part as well.
I also shave at the lowest angle possible for a given razor. That may play a part as well.
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- #57
Gents, thanks for all the comments. I may try that cap-push technique for a future shave, but I want to keep my technique as constant as possible right now.
Could you post a photo of that? It sounds interesting, although on current form I am unlikely to get quite that far.
Today was the eighth and last shave for my feather. I have more than doubled the lifespan I ordinarily expect from this blade. The blade is still causing me much less irritation than I expect from how dull it feels, but the past two shaves felt too much like work. Also I noticed a minor ingrown last night. I was able to free it by scrubbing lightly with a clean, dry toothbrush. But I treat that as a warning flag.
For anyone with morbid curiosity, here is the ingrown at about 200x, B&W. The follicle appears to be on the right, and the circular area on the left is probably swelling and inflammation caused by the misgrowth. The hair shaft in the middle is very close to the surface or perhaps exposed, which probably made it easier to free the hair. Oddly I could not find it again, afterward. I think it may have been a weak or damaged hair, and it simply broke off as the toothbrush drew it to the surface.
Here is what the edge looked like after shave eight:
I did another three strokes of denim stropping, just to get a cleaner look at the blade. At this magnification the edge is difficult to read, but it looks less regular than before. If that dark band under the edge is the PTFE coating, it may also show some wear now.
Finally here is a fresh Captain CS blade for tomorrow. I left this image in color, even though it is a bit red-shifted. I had an idea that B&W was making it easier to see details of the blade, but now I am not sure which way I prefer. Anyway the sharpie mark is on the left again, and that will be the cap side for my shaves. The unused blade edge actually looks less regular to my eye than the feather after all its shaves. But we shall see how it performs.
This is my last Captain. With the previous three Captains I had 3-4 comfortable shaves, following my usual practice of doing as little as possible to the blade. With each blade the unsharpened part started to rust after 2-3 shaves, and I saw little or no change from using mineral oil or isoproyl to try and prevent that. This time I plan to leave the blade in the razor, stropping on my jeans after each shave. When it feels done, I will post a final image.
Could you post a photo of that? It sounds interesting, although on current form I am unlikely to get quite that far.
Today was the eighth and last shave for my feather. I have more than doubled the lifespan I ordinarily expect from this blade. The blade is still causing me much less irritation than I expect from how dull it feels, but the past two shaves felt too much like work. Also I noticed a minor ingrown last night. I was able to free it by scrubbing lightly with a clean, dry toothbrush. But I treat that as a warning flag.
For anyone with morbid curiosity, here is the ingrown at about 200x, B&W. The follicle appears to be on the right, and the circular area on the left is probably swelling and inflammation caused by the misgrowth. The hair shaft in the middle is very close to the surface or perhaps exposed, which probably made it easier to free the hair. Oddly I could not find it again, afterward. I think it may have been a weak or damaged hair, and it simply broke off as the toothbrush drew it to the surface.
Here is what the edge looked like after shave eight:
I did another three strokes of denim stropping, just to get a cleaner look at the blade. At this magnification the edge is difficult to read, but it looks less regular than before. If that dark band under the edge is the PTFE coating, it may also show some wear now.
Finally here is a fresh Captain CS blade for tomorrow. I left this image in color, even though it is a bit red-shifted. I had an idea that B&W was making it easier to see details of the blade, but now I am not sure which way I prefer. Anyway the sharpie mark is on the left again, and that will be the cap side for my shaves. The unused blade edge actually looks less regular to my eye than the feather after all its shaves. But we shall see how it performs.
This is my last Captain. With the previous three Captains I had 3-4 comfortable shaves, following my usual practice of doing as little as possible to the blade. With each blade the unsharpened part started to rust after 2-3 shaves, and I saw little or no change from using mineral oil or isoproyl to try and prevent that. This time I plan to leave the blade in the razor, stropping on my jeans after each shave. When it feels done, I will post a final image.
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I agree, that razor looks worse than the used and stropped feather. Makes me think we should give a quick strop to every blade. Great pictures!
So just a first and a last picture on this one? Interesting that you chose a CS blade for the second study. Looks like you're going to use the same routine as well?
Very cool thread and great pictures!
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