Need sharper razor

[bluefoxicy]

I errantly tapped my razor TO MY FINGERNAIL while shaving! It didn't dull the blade though.

I still want it sharper. That C12k is SLOW, no kidding; I'm tempted to try to slurry it up, but I'd want to lap the other side and use that for a slurry. But how the crap would I lap that flat? There's no way, that thing's hard!

It shaves decent, but it's nowhere near as sharp as my Feather. The Feather shaves me better, but I have to be extremely careful with it or it will eat my face.

I'm tempted to sit down at square one--again-- and examine the edge; do whatever gentle polishing (light touch on 4k/8k back and forth for a while, then on the 12k for God knows how long?) I feel is appropriate; shave with it; and then send it off to someone for honing, so they can give me feedback on what I'm messing up. :|

 

[holli4pirating]

If the final edge isn't giving great shaves, it could be many things. It is possible you didn't get the edge where it needed to go off the 4k or the 8k, or maybe you just didn't get it where it needs to go off the 12k. It could also be a technique thing; it's not just the hones, it's the honer. Having a pro-honed razor as a reference can be a great tool here, as can sitting down with someone who knows how to hone and feeling their edges off each hone along the way.

 

[raccoonandbrush]

What i've heard is that the Naniwa 12K Super Stone is faster and gives a better edge. If you have the money, you might want to try that.

 

[SliceOfLife]

You don't need to isolate a side for slurry. Just the process of honing produces a slurry. That's how whetstones work. So it's not like the slurry (same stone or DMT raised) "pollutes" the hone like rubbing it with a different grit stone would. Once you rinse the stone off you're right back to where you were before you raised any slurry. There's no need to have a dedicated side for using with slurry.

 

[holli4pirating]

Just the process of honing produces a slurry. That's how whetstones work.

Maybe some, but not all. A C12k certainly doesn't generate a slurry while honing on it. As far as I understand it, with synthetic hones, while the binder does break down, it is in order to release broken down grits and expose fresh grits, not to generate a slurry.

I have used very few hones that really create a slurry just from honing. Actually, the only ones I can think of are the really low grit synthetics (Naniwa 400 and Norton 220 being two examples) and my Aoto.

 

[Chimensch]

I think the C12K is the problem here. It may be dulling the razor. The 8K side is good enough to shave off of. I would go back to the 4K to set the bevel and then finish on the 8K side and strop and shave. Have you ever done that? I think that you will find that the razor is sharper and more comfortable off of the 8K side than the C12K.

 

[mdunn]

I think the C12K is the problem here. It may be dulling the razor. The 8K side is good enough to shave off of. I would go back to the 4K to set the bevel and then finish on the 8K side and strop and shave. Have you ever done that? I think that you will find that the razor is sharper and more comfortable off of the 8K side than the C12K.

why would the 12k be dulling the razor?

 

[Chimensch]

why would the 12k be dulling the razor?

Because it's a natural stone and not a standardized product. Not every stone that comes from China in a box that says 12K is exactly the same, it could have inclusions that are damaging the blade. Plus, Chinese quality control isn't very good yet, or there wouldn't be problems with the GD razors, right?

In any case, if you want to solve a problem, you have to isolate the variables and test each one separately. In the "old days", we used to shave off of the 8K side. Then someone came along and told us that the "next new thing", whether CrOx or a Jnat was the way to go. Nowadays, a new shaver would never think of shaving off of the 8K. Why? Because someone told him that, after the 8K, you have to go finer, but he has never tried the 8K and so he has nothing to compare it to. Let him try shaving off of the 8K and, if the razor is sharper, then he knows where the problem is.

 

[holli4pirating]

Plus, Chinese quality control isn't very good yet, or there wouldn't be problems with the GD razors, right?

If there is a problem with Gold Dollars, it is because of quality control at the place where Gold Dollars are made, not a problem with "Chinese quality control."

 

[SliceOfLife]

Maybe some, but not all. A C12k certainly doesn't generate a slurry while honing on it. As far as I understand it, with synthetic hones, while the binder does break down, it is in order to release broken down grits and expose fresh grits, not to generate a slurry.

I have used very few hones that really create a slurry just from honing. Actually, the only ones I can think of are the really low grit synthetics (Naniwa 400 and Norton 220 being two examples) and my Aoto.

If whetstones don't generate a slurry, they clog. The slurry may not affect honing properties in the way it's traditionally thought of, but particles of the stone are being released and suspended in water. That's a slurry. Since with regular use the stone is releasing particles (albeit very slowly in the case of the China Nat), using an alternate stone or side of the stone to deliberately release them for their impact on honing is unnecessary.

 

[holli4pirating]

If whetstones don't generate a slurry, they clog. The slurry may not affect honing properties in the way it's traditionally thought of, but particles of the stone are being released and suspended in water. That's a slurry. Since with regular use the stone is releasing particles, using an alternate stone or side of the stone to deliberately release them for their impact on honing is unnecessary.

I suppose that technically, you are correct. I don't disagree with this, as you will see in my previous post. But this is not what the average honer would call a slurry.

 

[SliceOfLife]

My point was that there's no need to have a special surface on the stone for use with a slurry, since you're having to wash particles off the surface any way, so there will be no difference between a surface you honed on with water and then rinsed and a surface you honed on with slurry and then rinsed.

 

[Chimensch]

If whetstones don't generate a slurry, they clog. The slurry may not affect honing properties in the way it's traditionally thought of, but particles of the stone are being released and suspended in water. That's a slurry. Since with regular use the stone is releasing particles (albeit very slowly in the case of the China Nat), using an alternate stone or side of the stone to deliberately release them for their impact on honing is unnecessary.

A diamond hone is a whetstone that doesn't release particles and doesn't clog. The diamond abrades the steel but remains attached to the hone. The water carries away the swarf and doesn't clog. I think that the C12K is so hard that very little material is detached and, in any case, not enough to make a difference.

 

[holli4pirating]

A diamond hone is a whetstone that doesn't release particles and doesn't clog.

You are correct that the releasing of particles is not what prevents it from clogging, but DMT's do release particles. They need to be "broken in" initially, and they get noticeably smoother as they are used.

 

[SliceOfLife]

A diamond hone is a whetstone that doesn't release particles and doesn't clog.

They actually do clog, that's why DMT introduced interrupted versions. (And why you wash them when finished honing.)


The reason the China doesn't clog despite wearing very slowly is because it also cuts very slowly, so there's not as much swarf to clear, thus it doesn't need as much slurry removed to clear it.

 

[Chimensch]

Because it's a natural stone and not a standardized product. Not every stone that comes from China in a box that says 12K is exactly the same, it could have inclusions that are damaging the blade. Plus, Chinese quality control isn't very good yet, or there wouldn't be problems with the GD razors, right?

In any case, if you want to solve a problem, you have to isolate the variables and test each one separately. In the "old days", we used to shave off of the 8K side. Then someone came along and told us that the "next new thing", whether CrOx or a Jnat was the way to go. Nowadays, a new shaver would never think of shaving off of the 8K. Why? Because someone told him that, after the 8K, you have to go finer, but he has never tried the 8K and so he has nothing to compare it to. Let him try shaving off of the 8K and, if the razor is sharper, then he knows where the problem is.

If there is a problem with Gold Dollars, it is because of quality control at the place where Gold Dollars are made, not a problem with "Chinese quality control."

If that's the only comment you have to make about my post, can I assume that you agree with the parts of it that were on-topic, i.e., that my hypothesis that the C12K could be the problem is valid and that he should test it by eliminating it from the equation?

 

[holli4pirating]

If that's the only comment you have to make about my post, can I assume that you agree with the parts of it that were on-topic, i.e., that my hypothesis that the C12K could be the problem is valid and that he should test it by eliminating it from the equation?

I agree that that is possible, but I don't know how likely it is. Given the number of variables, pretty much anything is possible. I do think new guys should shave off their 8k's at first because if they can't anything else is a waste of time. It is the best way for a new guy to assess their honing (that I can think of right now).

 

[Chimensch]

I agree that that is possible, but I don't know how likely it is. Given the number of variables, pretty much anything is possible. I do think new guys should shave off their 8k's at first because if they can't anything else is a waste of time. It is the best way for a new guy to assess their honing (that I can think of right now).

Precisely right!