Need new water heater - brand recommendations
- Thread starter Berwick12
- Start date
We have a Rinnai tankless heater and love it. As you know they do not give these things away.
A.O. Smith .
Rinnai or Navien. Tankless is the only way to go
If a plumber does it, you'll be surprised at what it costs. They seem to price-fix based on zip code - here at least. We had a lesser quote magically correct itself to what the others were charging when they checked our zip code.
We went to a plumbing supply place to get the tank, in order to save, like $100. Yeah.
AA
We went to a plumbing supply place to get the tank, in order to save, like $100. Yeah.
AA
I have a Rinnai tankless water heater as well. Works great.
When it comes to tankless hot water heaters, bigger is worser IMO. My advice is to research your own usage patterns before purchasing a specific model. By research I mean literally turning on the shower at the flow rate that you or others in the home will use and sitting a bucket or trash can underneath to capture all the water for a long enough time period that you can to accurately measure your minimal gallons/minute flow. Same for washing your hands at the sink (probably need a smaller container and more error in the calculation) I think tankless units are improving all the time, to turn on at a lower flow rate, but the minimal flow rate that is more important than maximum flow IMO.
My home has had a Rinnai R85 for over 10 years, longer than I can remember and it has never given any trouble, so in that regard I am satisfied. But I also dislike it as it does not fire up until the flow rate is at 0.7 gal/minute which is fine for washing clothes, running the dishwasher, but on the edge of showering and a complete failure when washing hands. Since getting the unit I only wash my hands in cold water, as opening the tap wide enough to actually get hot water is too wasteful. I should install a hot water recirculation system to mitigate that, but would still mean using more water than needed (I could probably wash my hands with water at a flow rate of ~0.3 gallons/minute but that is only guessing).
Maybe the Warranty is more important then Brand, and if the Warranty is wort paper, or website written on.
Friend had Tankless years ago when they first came out, the plumbing company who did the installation, live on property almost reinventing the wheel (Tankless) that never works as advertised.
Friend had Tankless years ago when they first came out, the plumbing company who did the installation, live on property almost reinventing the wheel (Tankless) that never works as advertised.
We have a takagi, forgot which model but i think it’s the one that can handle 10g/m. A tad over kill for us but it’s what we have.
Plus:
Endless supply of hot water.
Not constantly heating water.
My personal favorite, sore muscles=long hot shower.
Downs:
Slight drop in temp when we take separate showers or when wife turns on the faucet. Not bad but noticeable as the tank catches up. But when it does no problem.
Takes a while for hot water to heat and reach the faucet. 30sec maybe on full open. The pipes also leach heat from the water as they heat up.
Hot water for laundry, be prepared to run the sink closest to the machine (if you have one)if you want hot water. No big deal for me since I wash all cold, not the wife.
Cold water sandwich.
Get used to turning on the hot tap first before wanting warm water. It’s habit already.
We have a condensing model so also have to keep an eye out on the PH filter or whatever it’s called. Not a big deal
Edit to add:
Ours kicks on at 0.5gpm
And no power = no hot water.
Plus:
Endless supply of hot water.
Not constantly heating water.
My personal favorite, sore muscles=long hot shower.
Downs:
Slight drop in temp when we take separate showers or when wife turns on the faucet. Not bad but noticeable as the tank catches up. But when it does no problem.
Takes a while for hot water to heat and reach the faucet. 30sec maybe on full open. The pipes also leach heat from the water as they heat up.
Hot water for laundry, be prepared to run the sink closest to the machine (if you have one)if you want hot water. No big deal for me since I wash all cold, not the wife.
Cold water sandwich.
Get used to turning on the hot tap first before wanting warm water. It’s habit already.
We have a condensing model so also have to keep an eye out on the PH filter or whatever it’s called. Not a big deal
Edit to add:
Ours kicks on at 0.5gpm
And no power = no hot water.
Last edited:
- Thread starter
- #10
We have a Stiebel-Eltron Tempra Plus. If I recall it's a 24 kW unit, which is funny to me because the hydronic heat boiler for the whole house is only 18 kW.
Our water supply is a well. The water is "slightly" hard, a bit of carbonate (makes good homebrew ale!) and some iron. We use a poly filter, 50 to 5 micron density, to remove flocs of iron. That's our only treatment.
The caution I have about tankless water heaters relates to the water hardness. A tank heater will gradually accumulate scale as it forms from heating the water and falls out to the bottom of the tank. With a tankless heater, all that scale gets spit straight into your water lines when you run hot water.
If that's a concern for you, then I recommend opening up every single faucet you have and removing the little stainless steel scale screens from them. Otherwise you'll need to do that at an inconvenient moment when the hot water plugs up and you're standing there in your birthday suit with soap in your eyes. This includes hot water lines into washing machines and dishwashers. You'll clean faucet aerators about once a week.
Tankless heaters need a certain amount of flow before they turn on. If you're someone who frequently runs the hot water at a low rate, it may not be enough to turn on the heater. You'll find ways. Also, when you first turn on the hot water, it will take a moment for the heater to catch up. You'll get alternating zones of hot and less-hot water in your pipes, which will simply flush out and be all hot once you've run the water enough to have it hot all the way from where you installed the heater to your faucet.
Amusingly, that means if you're one of those old Army-trained guys who shuts off the shower to soap up, you're gonna get a nice dose of ice water before it picks up again. Ask me how I know that...
Might not be obvious from the above, but we like ours. They work best set to a temperature that you like for your shower, and then just use the hot water. That's 110F for us. The great thing is you'll never run out of hot water. The other advantage to only using the hot water is that when some well-meaning person flushes a toilet in the house you will never notice. One may choose, of course, to utter a hoarse agonized scream on general principle to remind them, but it's not de rigeur.
O.H.
Our water supply is a well. The water is "slightly" hard, a bit of carbonate (makes good homebrew ale!) and some iron. We use a poly filter, 50 to 5 micron density, to remove flocs of iron. That's our only treatment.
The caution I have about tankless water heaters relates to the water hardness. A tank heater will gradually accumulate scale as it forms from heating the water and falls out to the bottom of the tank. With a tankless heater, all that scale gets spit straight into your water lines when you run hot water.
If that's a concern for you, then I recommend opening up every single faucet you have and removing the little stainless steel scale screens from them. Otherwise you'll need to do that at an inconvenient moment when the hot water plugs up and you're standing there in your birthday suit with soap in your eyes. This includes hot water lines into washing machines and dishwashers. You'll clean faucet aerators about once a week.
Tankless heaters need a certain amount of flow before they turn on. If you're someone who frequently runs the hot water at a low rate, it may not be enough to turn on the heater. You'll find ways. Also, when you first turn on the hot water, it will take a moment for the heater to catch up. You'll get alternating zones of hot and less-hot water in your pipes, which will simply flush out and be all hot once you've run the water enough to have it hot all the way from where you installed the heater to your faucet.
Amusingly, that means if you're one of those old Army-trained guys who shuts off the shower to soap up, you're gonna get a nice dose of ice water before it picks up again. Ask me how I know that...
Might not be obvious from the above, but we like ours. They work best set to a temperature that you like for your shower, and then just use the hot water. That's 110F for us. The great thing is you'll never run out of hot water. The other advantage to only using the hot water is that when some well-meaning person flushes a toilet in the house you will never notice. One may choose, of course, to utter a hoarse agonized scream on general principle to remind them, but it's not de rigeur.
O.H.
- Thread starter
- #12
Ours is a natural gas unit, but need electricity to run the fans and the electronics.
And yes I do enjoy mine.
One thing I forgot to mention. Ask your plumber about "tankless water heater diversion valves" that allow you to cut the water heater out of your system, hook a couple of hoses to it and hook up a water pump so you can flush it out with vinegar. With our water I change the "Big Blue" filter and flush out the water heater approximately every six months (recirculate 10 litres of white vinegar, run the pump 15 min.).
For me, cheaper than paying a plumber to drive an hour each way to get here, plus spending an hour working. You'll also need a couple of 5-gallon buckets, a couple of 4-foot or so garden hoses, and one washer hose with female on both ends. I use a Liberty model 331 portable transfer pump.
O.H.
I think those are the main considerations. Also, it is my impression that a whole-house electric tankless unit (meaning one capable of feeding 2-3-4 taps simultaneously depending on what else is happening inside the home) is not really cost effective or energy efficient. That those will have a very high current draw in order to produce the higher flow rate. But of course, do your own research if leaning towards an electric unit as my knowledge of them is limited.
My tankless is a whole house natural gas powered unit. Though I have thought about installing a small electric mini-tank/tankless unit in the master bath just for the sink to handle a low flow rate. Some (many?) of those under sink units need 240V service and I would need to run a new circuit to power the unit in any case so that idea has faded into the background for now.
I forgot to mention that I was also using a 110F setting. Months after installing I dialed our tankless unit back to that temperature setting. In the winter time I only open the hot water tap and do not touch the cold. I reduced the setting as otherwise I would need to mix in a little cold when set at 120F and waste water to keep the flow high enough to keep the natural gas burner lit. Everything I read about my unit and crudely tested using a big bucket indicated that it was flow rate and not temperature that determined when the burner turned on and off.We have a Stiebel-Eltron Tempra Plus. If I recall it's a 24 kW unit, which is funny to me because the hydronic heat boiler for the whole house is only 18 kW.
Our water supply is a well. The water is "slightly" hard, a bit of carbonate (makes good homebrew ale!) and some iron. We use a poly filter, 50 to 5 micron density, to remove flocs of iron. That's our only treatment.
The caution I have about tankless water heaters relates to the water hardness. A tank heater will gradually accumulate scale as it forms from heating the water and falls out to the bottom of the tank. With a tankless heater, all that scale gets spit straight into your water lines when you run hot water.
If that's a concern for you, then I recommend opening up every single faucet you have and removing the little stainless steel scale screens from them. Otherwise you'll need to do that at an inconvenient moment when the hot water plugs up and you're standing there in your birthday suit with soap in your eyes. This includes hot water lines into washing machines and dishwashers. You'll clean faucet aerators about once a week.
Tankless heaters need a certain amount of flow before they turn on. If you're someone who frequently runs the hot water at a low rate, it may not be enough to turn on the heater. You'll find ways. Also, when you first turn on the hot water, it will take a moment for the heater to catch up. You'll get alternating zones of hot and less-hot water in your pipes, which will simply flush out and be all hot once you've run the water enough to have it hot all the way from where you installed the heater to your faucet.
Amusingly, that means if you're one of those old Army-trained guys who shuts off the shower to soap up, you're gonna get a nice dose of ice water before it picks up again. Ask me how I know that...
Might not be obvious from the above, but we like ours. They work best set to a temperature that you like for your shower, and then just use the hot water. That's 110F for us. The great thing is you'll never run out of hot water. The other advantage to only using the hot water is that when some well-meaning person flushes a toilet in the house you will never notice. One may choose, of course, to utter a hoarse agonized scream on general principle to remind them, but it's not de rigeur.
O.H.
After figuring this out, I almost wished I had bought the heater with upgraded controls. One that allows setting the temperature from a keypad that sat directly beside the shower or washing machine, etc. So that if one wanted to more easily wash a load of dishes or clothes at a higher temperature they could. Currently one will need to go to the hot water heater in order to see and adjust the temperature which is not convenient.
You can get an uninterruptable power supply to solve that. Like the ones they make for computers.
I currently have APC brand but I don't recommend that brand. I have two of them. They both randomly beep. I figured out it's the power loss warning beep, but we didn't lose power. I opened up the units and pulled the speaker off the circuit board.
Well last year I had to replace my Water Heater, the last one lasted 20 years. Guy helping me do the reinstall said don't expect t NEW ONE to last more then 7 years, all water heater are not made like they years ago. Companies IMHO are building junk to fail to sell you another one sooner, than later.
Water heaters are a big deal in our house. The biggest issue with all conventional water heaters are leaks, and catching them before they become a burst. Once they start dripping, you sometimes can have only weeks before it floods out a room, or worse. We keep ours next to a higher end fully finished walk out basement with a huge custom bar area, so pay very close attention to ours.
I won't buy less than a ten year warranty unit, and we presently have a 12 year TOTL Rheem about to reach warranty end. But depending on your water and operating conditions, they can start going long before the warranty runs out. Still, we intend to keep this one quite a few years past warranty, just like we did the last one. It has been flawless and tight since the day it was installed.
The secret weapon to go safely to warranty, and many years beyond, is to keep up with the anodes on them. On say a 12 year unit, I'll change out the factory anode at 6 years, and then change it out again every 2-3 years. If you change the anode that often on them, before they are entirely consumed, they do not freeze up in the tank, and come out easily each time.
It's the anode that is sacrificial, and keeps the tanks from rusting, and bursting. Once the anode is fully consumed, the tank is exposed to the continuing electrochemical process. If there's some anode left when you change it, the tank has been protected. Depending on the water, you can go with magnesium or aluminum. We use the former with well water. A replacement anode is under $50.
And I'll add that most plumbers rarely consider replacing anodes. They only think about replacing water heaters, and won't tell you about the anodes, mainly because they don't ever think about them. You'll have to educate your typical plumber on anode changes, like we did with ours.
The other tips to get a good unit to reach 20+ years is to keep the pressure not too high, and don't run them too hot. Higher water temps speed up the corrosion process.
But the best way to prevent leak catastrophes is to plan for them. We put our heater in a leak pan that drains to the perimeter drain for the slab, and have a water shutoff sensor/alarm on the floor a couple feet away. Hopefully, any leaks or relief valve events go right into the perimeter drain. And if any water reaches that sensor, it shuts the well pump off instantly, limiting the spill to the 50 gallons in the tank.
I'm told, due to their construction, the tankless models are more of a leak risk than the conventional ones, and are also more prone to fail catastrophically when they do go. They are similar to the old Laars mini-therm boilers from the 1990s that way, according to one old timer. Very efficient, but they need to be thin-walled to do so.
I won't buy less than a ten year warranty unit, and we presently have a 12 year TOTL Rheem about to reach warranty end. But depending on your water and operating conditions, they can start going long before the warranty runs out. Still, we intend to keep this one quite a few years past warranty, just like we did the last one. It has been flawless and tight since the day it was installed.
The secret weapon to go safely to warranty, and many years beyond, is to keep up with the anodes on them. On say a 12 year unit, I'll change out the factory anode at 6 years, and then change it out again every 2-3 years. If you change the anode that often on them, before they are entirely consumed, they do not freeze up in the tank, and come out easily each time.
It's the anode that is sacrificial, and keeps the tanks from rusting, and bursting. Once the anode is fully consumed, the tank is exposed to the continuing electrochemical process. If there's some anode left when you change it, the tank has been protected. Depending on the water, you can go with magnesium or aluminum. We use the former with well water. A replacement anode is under $50.
And I'll add that most plumbers rarely consider replacing anodes. They only think about replacing water heaters, and won't tell you about the anodes, mainly because they don't ever think about them. You'll have to educate your typical plumber on anode changes, like we did with ours.
The other tips to get a good unit to reach 20+ years is to keep the pressure not too high, and don't run them too hot. Higher water temps speed up the corrosion process.
But the best way to prevent leak catastrophes is to plan for them. We put our heater in a leak pan that drains to the perimeter drain for the slab, and have a water shutoff sensor/alarm on the floor a couple feet away. Hopefully, any leaks or relief valve events go right into the perimeter drain. And if any water reaches that sensor, it shuts the well pump off instantly, limiting the spill to the 50 gallons in the tank.
I'm told, due to their construction, the tankless models are more of a leak risk than the conventional ones, and are also more prone to fail catastrophically when they do go. They are similar to the old Laars mini-therm boilers from the 1990s that way, according to one old timer. Very efficient, but they need to be thin-walled to do so.
I did not realize that tankless were more of a leak risk. Makes me wonder if a "smart" water meter monitoring system is worth the time and expense. Since it seems to be only a matter of "when" and not "if" a leak will occur.
I don't know whether to blame the architect or builder, but many homes in my neighborhood had the hot water heater tank located in the attic (good during summer when solar heating provides an efficiency boost) but increases the risk of water damage. I got lucky that a smoke alarm was located a few feet across on the ceiling underneath and it went off at 4am one morning. Who knew that a smoke alarm could do double duty as a water leak detector and wake up the whole house? When the local plumbing company offered to put a tankless unit in the crawlspace rather than a big tank back into the attic it was a no brainer decision. So while I dislike not being able to get a low flow rate of hot water (without prefilling the pipe and wasting water in between) I do like that water distribution is kept under the floor.
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