natural only progression

[global_dev]

during my research i have seen a bunch of the japanese naturals described, but can someone describe just the type names of what a good natural progression would be? not talking coticule recommendation in this thread though...

for example if synth it would be 1K, 4, 8K or something smiliar

i have been to this page at JNS http://japanesenaturalstones.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=46&Itemid=64&Itemid=61
but I would like just a quick example, noting this is just a a quick exercise to help me in my research.

thanks

 

[azmark]

Personally, one stone is all you would need but whats the fun in that.

But a way that has been catching my eye and will end up trying one of these days is:

Amakusared for bevel, aoto, then proceed to hone of my choice. The Aoto's characteristics seem really interesting and have heard they are great for pre sharpening.

 

[global_dev]

Personally, one stone is all you would need but whats the fun in that.

one japanese natural stone? is all you would need? please more info..

 

[professorchaos]

Yes, one very hard Awase-to and a series of nagura.

 

[danjared]

Not one Japanese natural hone. I mean, sure, you could set a bevel with an awasedo and tomonagura, but it will take many, many hours (just ask Jim Rion, who tried that once). I think Mark is referring to having one Japanese natural finishing stone with several nagura, but even bevel setting with a botan nagura can be arduous, as I've found out from experience. (Or, there's the coticule, and a fast one will do bevel setting to finishing in fairly little time, all with only one slurry stone.)

 

[SliceOfLife]

Single stone?

Coti. End of story. Nothing I've seen or heard of has the range of this.

Got room for two stones? Coti + hard/fine Jnat and the nagura stones as recommended above. Or if you don't want to deal with the nagura stones, Thuringian or a quality Arkansas.

Series? Quite frankly I haven't found a natural system that beats dulicot up to its maximum. I really only bother buying other natural stones that will take me beyond where a coti can get me. You don't want a coti recommendation? You're basically asking, "I want a vehicle that has four wheels and is street and highway legal, but I don't want an automobile." I mean there surely are options out there, but probably 99% of the people out there who use nats for low grit honing are using coti's. The remaining 1% is probably almost all Jnat collectors with all kinds of low grit Jnats we've never heard of. Then there may be a guy or two out there using stones that have never before been mentioned on a shaving forum.

If you wait around maybe someone who knows Jnats can likely give you some tips on how to build a low grit series. I'd guess 2 or 3 stones are required to take you (with reasonable ease) up to a point where they'd recommend you start using your finisher Jnat + a series of Nagura, but I have no expertise in that area.

 

[mainaman]

1 and 3k synthetics,
Botan + Mejiro nagura, nice soft tomonagura, and a very hard and fine polisher and that is all you will ever need.

 

[azmark]

Not one Japanese natural hone. I mean, sure, you could set a bevel with an awasedo and tomonagura, but it will take many, many hours (just ask Jim Rion, who tried that once). I think Mark is referring to having one Japanese natural finishing stone with several nagura, but even bevel setting with a botan nagura can be arduous, as I've found out from experience. (Or, there's the coticule, and a fast one will do bevel setting to finishing in fairly little time, all with only one slurry stone.)

Sorry, meant single stone as in a finisher and naguras. Never used one stone (besides a coticule) for EVERYTHING.

Single stone?

Coti. End of story. Nothing I've seen or heard of has the range of this.

Got room for two stones? Coti + hard/fine Jnat and the nagura stones as recommended above. Or if you don't want to deal with the nagura stones, Thuringian or a quality Arkansas.

Series? Quite frankly I haven't found a natural system that beats dulicot up to its maximum. I really only bother buying other natural stones that will take me beyond where a coti can get me. You don't want a coti recommendation? You're basically asking, "I want a vehicle that has four wheels and is street and highway legal, but I don't want an automobile." I mean there surely are options out there, but probably 99% of the people out there who use nats for low grit honing are using coti's. The remaining 1% is probably almost all Jnat collectors with all kinds of low grit Jnats we've never heard of. Then there may be a guy or two out there using stones that have never before been mentioned on a shaving forum. If you wait around maybe someone who knows Jnats can give you some tips on how to build a low grit series. I'd guess 2 or 3 stones are required to take you (with reasonable ease) up to a point where they'd recommend you start using your finisher Jnat + a series of Nagura, but I have no expertise in that area.

I didn't bring the coticule into since the OP pointed toward Jnats but since you bring it up, coticule (dilucot) with JNAT finish is one of my favorite edges. I don't finish with a coticule anymore right now actually.

I recommended Amakusa, Aoto and finisher as a progression he was asking about. And this is one that I plan on attempting in the near future.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Totally skipped your post somehow. Impressed at my own lucky guess.

Where does one get an amakusa? I assume it's fast enough for beveling and chip removal, so guessing they handle roughly 500-2000 grit honing or thereabouts? Are they super soft like Aoto are?

 

[danjared]

For a natural bevel setter, there are also Queer Creek hones, which could work for heavier bevel work. I've not used mine on my razors yet, but it's worked fine on knives (where it serves more as a mid-range stone). There are probably other American natural stones. I bet a good Washita (perhaps a Lily White) could be used for bevel setting. Of course, once you're past the bevel setting stage, a progression of soft/hard Arkansas stones would finish you off.

I've not heard of anything courser than a botan that is a Japanese natural stone and used with razors. Iyotos are too scratchy, and I've heard hesitance about using aotos with razors because of dishing. I have never used an aoto.

There are various oil stones from the British Isles that may hit the low end grits (and certainly the high-end grits).

I've heard varied things about Turkey stones, which might fit somewhere in a natural progression. But they also are hard to find (at least in the US) and are very brittle.

I don't know anything about rocks from Africa, South America, Australia, or Antarctica!

 

[SliceOfLife]

From what I've seen washita are very very very very very slow when used with razors. They cut like cheese graters... gaps in the stone collect material which the oil then pushes out. Without substantial pressure, you're almost honing on glass. I have had a few queer creek though, might be interesting to try them, they feel more abrasive.

 

[mainaman]

Totally skipped your post somehow. Impressed at my own lucky guess.

Where does one get an amakusa? I assume it's fast enough for beveling and chip removal, so guessing they handle roughly 500-2000 grit honing or thereabouts? Are they super soft like Aoto are?

amakusa will not work makes micro chips. it is roughly 1k stone, and is much much harder than Aoto

 

[danjared]

From what I've seen washita are very very very very very slow when used with razors. They cut like cheese graters... gaps in the stone collect material which the oil then pushes out. Without substantial pressure, you're almost honing on glass. I have had a few queer creek though, might be interesting to try them, they feel more abrasive.

I've heard that Lily White Washitas are reasonably fast. I've never got my hands on one since certain woodworkers seem to love them. It could be that razors are too hardened for any washita.

 

[mainaman]

I've not heard of anything courser than a botan that is a Japanese natural stone. Iyotos are too scratchy, and I've heard hesitance about using aotos with razors because of dishing. I have never used an aoto.

Amakusa, Aizu are much coarser than Botan, botan rally is a medium polisher.
Aoto dishing could be a problem with knives sharpening where a lot of pressure is applied, but not with razors. IME a natural Aoto dishes pretty slow with knives even. For me he biggest problem with all low grit J-nat stones is they are slow.

 

[SliceOfLife]

I've heard that Lily White Washitas are reasonably fast. I've never got my hands on one since certain woodworkers seem to love them. It could be that razors are too hardened for any washita.

I think most reports on Washita's are from people using them for tools that are pressed into the stone during honing. Most people avoid that with razors. It can be used to great effect, but in my working with Washita's, the most pressure I'm comfortable using is still not enough to make them anything other than painfully slow. I don't believe I've used a Lily white though, so they may be an exception, but given the price/demand for them (as a stone that is no longer mined and wasn't cheap when it was mined), I don't consider it worth the investment on the chance that they are.

 

[azmark]

I've seen red and white Amakusa, one is better than the other from what I gathered.

I haven't heard of Aoto's dishing though I don't hear too much about their use but from a few but their characteristics seem like a great pre polisher. I guess the only way to find out is to experiment.

 

[professorchaos]

I like my Blue Mountain Aoto so much that it always gets used. Either after setting the bevel on a DMT or to refresh the bevel when resharpening an edge.

 

[danjared]

I like my Blue Mountain Aoto so much that it always gets used. Either after setting the bevel on a DMT or to refresh the bevel when resharpening an edge.

Is the Blue Mountain Aoto one of the reconstituted aoto stones (mix of synthetic and natural) or a normal aoto?

 

[Woodash]

I spent the day removing a fair amount of microchips and resetting the bevels on a couple of razors using a coticule with heavy, refreshed slurry. Amazingly effective.

 

[danjared]

I spent the day removing a fair amount of microchips and resetting the bevels on a couple of razors using a coticule with heavy, refreshed slurry. Amazingly effective.

I hope you didn't spend the ENTIRE day on just two razors.