My first run using a R41 -- clone?

[Guido75]

I got a PIF/gift from my local shaving shop in the form of a R41 razor head. The top cap does not seem to fit very well, but using my KCG - which is a R89 clone - I was able to mount the baseplate for a first shave. The fact that the top cap has QC issues does lead me to conclude that this is not the actual R41 and rather a clone.

I have always been in awe of the R41 based on reviews and videos I have read and seen. And still there was a little voice inside that said, if you would be given the chance would you shave with it just to find out? And now this opportunity presented itself.

So this morning I went through my usual prep (see A newbies journey into DE shaving - https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/threads/a-newbies-journey-into-de-shaving.622889/post-11830932 for details and set up) and off I went.

There is definitely blade feel with this razor and it immediately told me two things: it means business and it wants respect. I used a very light touch and focused on zero pressure as well. I also used a more shallow (handle more horizontal to the face - or more parallel to the floor if you will) angle as this razor feels like it has a tendency to hook itself onto whiskers and thereby increasing the chance of nicking yourself.

I have had more comfortable shaves, but I must say that it was not at all as daunting as I anticipated prior to the shave. Just watch the angle and use small strokes. Even my usual Gillette Slanted and Gillette Slide strokes were easily performed. My trouble area is my chin and I was even more careful there than I was on neck and cheeks. And yes, there were a few weepers, but nothing compared to the Blood & Tears I was expecting.

I could also feel the razor providing a very close shave (on a day's growth) and after my first two passes I already achieved BBS levels in most areas of my face. I was thinking about stopping there, but I also wanted to know how this razor and I got along on an ATG pass. So I lathered up for a third pass and very gently and very shallow performed two ATG on the neck and one on the cheeks. Even mustache area was doable, albeit slanted and not bang on ATG. The final result was glass-like BBS (I do feel some very minor stubbles, but nothing serious).

I learned a couple of things:

• The R41 is all it is said to be. I am used to Fatip's so I know what efficient feels like, but to be honest this is next level
• It is just like a Jedi light sabre or maybe reference to Darth Vader is more appropriate given its reputation
• Level of comfort is less than Fatip - I did not fully enjoy the shave and did experience that raking sensation I read about
• I also found the level of maneuverability less than my Fatips.
• This is not a beginners razor as an entry razor, but it is also not for the overly experienced only either
• Technique is key here with light touch and no pressure
• Not sure if it is a daily driver for me, but if I have more mileage with it, it could
• Apparently I have gained sufficient experience and technique to use the R41 - and for me that is quite an achievement

If you are up for it and want to know the epiphany of DE shaving than you have to at least have tried the R41 once. I will definitely buy a replacement cap and install it on my spare Razorine handle to add this one to my rotation.

And a big thank you to Paul Kox from The Dutch Shaving Shop (www.dutchshavingshop.nl) for granting me this opportunity.

Cheers,

Guido.

 

[Brutus]

It is kind of tough to draw conclusions about the real McCoy from what you probably rightly suspect to be a fake razor head.
I have read reports before where people who tried to save some money vented their frustration about having bought what can at best be called a ‘clone’.

A good razor is a precision-engineered item and sloppy tolerances will negatively affect the shave.
While I prefer steel and titanium, a well-made Zamak razor can work very well too and last a long time, as my Mühle open comb razors demonstrated.
Whether the same applies also to a cheaply made clone is anybody’s guess.

So, instead of drawing conclusions from what is most likely a fake part, I would instead buy an original Mühle open comb head (€20 on their website), put it on a handle that fits, and draw my conclusions from there.


B.

 

[Iridian]

The handle isn't Mühle and the top cap doesn't fit on the base as it should. This is some kind of open comb but not a R41.

Just for you I just looked at the cap of R89 and R41. They are different as well. Pic below, taking the photo now.

R41 left, R89 right. Both using the standard size handle.

 

[Guido75]

Thanks @Iridian - helpful to know. I always thought the cap was the same and only the baseplate differed.

I was not planning on buying a (real) R41 anytime soon. I was just really wondering how the experience would be. I have definitely not had a razor with that much blade exposure yet.

I love my Italian razors too much and I have enough razors as it is. But that said, this was a nice test run and as @Brutus pointed out replacement heads are really affordable from my regular webshop (€18), but for now I am fully satisfied with my Fatips and soon my Razorine.

That said - it did perform very well this morning. It is now 5PM here and I am still at BBS level / DFS level.

Best,

Guido

 

[Iridian]

I always thought the cap was the same and only the baseplate differed.

Yeah, this is what I believed as well. They are very similar, but they are not identical or interchangeable. The R89 cap supports the blade a bit less on the R41 plate and makes it behave more like the always mentioned very aggressive 2011 cap, which was a bit shorter.
The short/less wide cap was also used for the first Z0 prototypes from DSCosmetic. The current version is now using the 2013 onwards version of the R41 cap that gives better blade support.
IMO it is better than the 2011, it makes things just extra harsh for an already hyper efficient razor. The longer cap clamps down better.

A razor that isn't quite as aggressive but gives me also wonderful blade feel is the Timeless .78 Bronze OC, btw.

Perhaps you also noticed that I lately praised the Lupo .95 OC a lot?

My next shave reports will be Blackbird related. I shave shallow with that one, even if I read a lot of people using it steep.

 

[Guido75]

Perhaps you also noticed that I lately praised the Lupo .95 OC a lot?

I have indeed! And made me look at designated websites much more than once! I also eyed the DC Lupo head. And it is on my (not so) short (anymore) list .

Guido

 

[Guido75]

Just for you I just looked at the cap of R89 and R41. They are different as well.

Interestingly enough by the way my KCG cap had more resemblance to the left cap than the right cap. In terms of clamping I had the impression it performed a decent job. At least I did not experience blade clatter as some reviews have mentioned.

Best,

Guido

 

[nickm]

Guido, What I think you need to know about the MUHLE is not to over-tighten the threads to the cap. Those Muhle like to be super loose, almost falling off and then go back and adjust a 1/4 of a turn. Also, they are super sensitive to blade angle. Muhle can be heavenly when you get the matching soap dialed in and hydrated. And I really like the Muhle aftershave balm. The lotion is a bit harder to find here in the USA though Maggard's does have it on hand occasionally.

My tip is to get the Muhle shaving cream and then match the texture of the cream to the soap. The German soap feels so crisp and clean. Worth it for the porcelain dish MUHLE also makes.

Try using with a Personna Blue label (Platinum), a MUHLE, Derby Extra or Rapira. Astra Greens are too aggressive for me.

With the R89 I can get a single pass shave. NO irritation at all.

Soap I like MUHLE, WSP T-Formula or Stirling for additional slickness. Once setup the Martin soap makes the razor work extremely accurate. For comfort, protection I like the CELLA and start with a Tech early in the week and transition into the R89 and then to a shavette or more aggressive razor once I build up a few shaves. Then it is back to using mild Techs at the beginning of the week.

Those first aggressive razor shaves WTG only one pass. They might not be as close around lips, chin, mouth though give it 24 hours and give yourself time to get into the shave. Definitely do not chase the shave with 2-3 passes. It could be 20 or more shaves before you get the shave where you like it. Witch hazel with Aloe is decent for those rough shaves and Argan oil also helps repair skin. MUHLE also has a Repair Serum worth looking into.

Another tip is do your bowl lathers. The extra abrasive tendency for the brush can be almost too much for some faces with aggressive razors. Take all that extra friction and place it back into the bowl, then a simple face lather with back and forth two and fro painting technique is all you need. Keeps the skin from being enflamed, raw, red, sore.

Another tip is to wash the soap away thoroughly. At least 2-3 rinses more with cold water. It's not to close pores, it's to remove any soap that could potentially irritate skin afterwards. Give it 5-15 minutes and then some aftershave when the skin starts to firm up.

I stopped taking showers because my skin was actually softening up too much, now prep in the morning is simply a splash of water on the face, then a pre-shave oil and lather. The pre-shave oil can help build up confidence and I notice it does reduce cuts. Just go easy around that neck area. You can always get a closer shave.

 

[Butch Waxx]

View attachment 1482147
I got a PIF/gift from my local shaving shop in the form of a R41 razor head. The top cap does not seem to fit very well, but using my KCG - which is a R89 clone - I was able to mount the baseplate for a first shave. The fact that the top cap has QC issues does lead me to conclude that this is not the actual R41 and rather a clone.

I have always been in awe of the R41 based on reviews and videos I have read and seen. And still there was a little voice inside that said, if you would be given the chance would you shave with it just to find out? And now this opportunity presented itself.

So this morning I went through my usual prep (see A newbies journey into DE shaving - https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/threads/a-newbies-journey-into-de-shaving.622889/post-11830932 for details and set up) and off I went.

There is definitely blade feel with this razor and it immediately told me two things: it means business and it wants respect. I used a very light touch and focused on zero pressure as well. I also used a more shallow (handle more horizontal to the face - or more parallel to the floor if you will) angle as this razor feels like it has a tendency to hook itself onto whiskers and thereby increasing the chance of nicking yourself.

I have had more comfortable shaves, but I must say that it was not at all as daunting as I anticipated prior to the shave. Just watch the angle and use small strokes. Even my usual Gillette Slanted and Gillette Slide strokes were easily performed. My trouble area is my chin and I was even more careful there than I was on neck and cheeks. And yes, there were a few weepers, but nothing compared to the Blood & Tears I was expecting.

I could also feel the razor providing a very close shave (on a day's growth) and after my first two passes I already achieved BBS levels in most areas of my face. I was thinking about stopping there, but I also wanted to know how this razor and I got along on an ATG pass. So I lathered up for a third pass and very gently and very shallow performed two ATG on the neck and one on the cheeks. Even mustache area was doable, albeit slanted and not bang on ATG. The final result was glass-like BBS (I do feel some very minor stubbles, but nothing serious).

I learned a couple of things:

• The R41 is all it is said to be. I am used to Fatip's so I know what efficient feels like, but to be honest this is next level
• It is just like a Jedi light sabre or maybe reference to Darth Vader is more appropriate given its reputation
• Level of comfort is less than Fatip - I did not fully enjoy the shave and did experience that raking sensation I read about
• I also found the level of maneuverability less than my Fatips.
• This is not a beginners razor as an entry razor, but it is also not for the overly experienced only either
• Technique is key here with light touch and no pressure
• Not sure if it is a daily driver for me, but if I have more mileage with it, it could
• Apparently I have gained sufficient experience and technique to use the R41 - and for me that is quite an achievement

If you are up for it and want to know the epiphany of DE shaving than you have to at least have tried the R41 once. I will definitely buy a replacement cap and install it on my spare Razorine handle to add this one to my rotation.

And a big thank you to Paul Kox from The Dutch Shaving Shop (www.dutchshavingshop.nl) for granting me this opportunity.

Cheers,

Guido.

Excellent review Guido! I think your point #6 is key! I would also add not to be timid or afraid with your light strokes and no pressure technique as she will recognize your hesitancy and punish you….. Confident, but gentle strokes are key.

 

[pierrelortie44]

I enjoy my Muhle R41 daily. Definitely more intimate shave, makes me pay more attention. If I keep my lather thick I have no problems.

 

[Guido75]

Yeah, this is what I believed as well. They are very similar, but they are not identical or interchangeable. The R89 cap supports the blade a bit less on the R41 plate and makes it behave more like the always mentioned very aggressive 2011 cap, which was a bit shorter.
The short/less wide cap was also used for the first Z0 prototypes from DSCosmetic. The current version is now using the 2013 onwards version of the R41 cap that gives better blade support.
IMO it is better than the 2011, it makes things just extra harsh for an already hyper efficient razor. The longer cap clamps down better.

A razor that isn't quite as aggressive but gives me also wonderful blade feel is the Timeless .78 Bronze OC, btw.

Perhaps you also noticed that I lately praised the Lupo .95 OC a lot?

My next shave reports will be Blackbird related. I shave shallow with that one, even if I read a lot of people using it steep.

The only set back I have with the Lupo is that I reside in Europe and a head alone has a carrying value of €110 around here as opposed to the price range in the US including a handle. But that is not to say it would be s great addition to my collection!

Guido

 

[ivan_101]

Sorry, but as others already mentioned, you didn't shave with the R41. The easy way to tell if your head is original is that the Muhle head should come nowadays in a nice cardboard packaging with their logo and all. I bought a Chinese R41 imitation and it shaved nowhere as near as the R41. As @Iridian said even the R89 and the R41 caps differ.

Sometime between 2014 when I bought my first two R41s and 2020 Muhle changed (again!) both the top and the bottom plate on the R41 (the ZAMAK version) and now the exposure is less. I have measured my 4 current heads (2 old and 2 new) and will post a separate thread with precise measurements pretty soon. I am waiting currently for a 5th head which is on the way.+

P.S. The top cap didn't fit well on my Chinese R41 imitation. It was that bad.

 

[Guido75]

Sorry, but as others already mentioned, you didn't shave with the R41. The easy way to tell if your head is original is that the Muhle head should come nowadays in a nice cardboard packaging with their logo and all. I bought a Chinese R41 imitation and it shaved nowhere as near as the R41. As @Iridian said even the R89 and the R41 caps differ.

Sometime between 2014 when I bought my first two R41s and 2020 Muhle changed (again!) both the top and the bottom plate on the R41 (the ZAMAK version) and now the exposure is less. I have measured my 4 current heads (2 old and 2 new) and will post a separate thread with precise measurements pretty soon. I am waiting currently for a 5th head which is on the way.+

P.S. The top cap didn't fit well on my Chinese R41 imitation. It was that bad.

Don’t feel sorry! I’m not.

The R41 has undergone a lot of changes over the years and I was not even aware of the ones you mentioned.

I knew it was a clone the minute that cap did not screw on properly. Because to me Mühle (or anything German actually) is QC. But I was curious nonetheless. And now there is just an extra opportunity to compare it to the real thing. And no investment made so nothing gained nothing lost.

Still liked the idea enough to give it a go and as far as alignment goes - I must say it not all that bad actually. Seems to fit my KCG cap quite good. It could be better if I compare it to the real KCG baseplate, but hey I am used to Fatip’s wonderful daily alignment challenge!

Best,

Guido

 

[ivan_101]

Don’t feel sorry! I’m not.

The R41 has undergone a lot of changes over the years and I was not even aware of the ones you mentioned.

I knew it was a clone the minute that cap did not screw on properly. Because to me Mühle (or anything German actually) is QC. But I was curious nonetheless. And now there is just an extra opportunity to compare it to the real thing. And no investment made so nothing gained nothing lost.

Still liked the idea enough to give it a go and as far as alignment goes - I must say it not all that bad actually. Seems to fit my KCG cap quite good. It could be better if I compare it to the real KCG baseplate, but hey I am used to Fatip’s wonderful daily alignment challenge!

Best,

Guido

Callling Fatips's alignment a challenge is just putting it mild. Let's call things what they are. I would define it as a nightmare. Sometimes I needed close to 20 minutes to align a Fatip. Currently have more than 5 of them "Artisan pieces" as one Italian seller said as an excuse for a defective one he sold me. He just wanted to tell me "It is what it is, you are not supposed to get a replacement for missing plating spots."

 

[cavediver]

The R41 head is 20 EUR and definitely worth the money. Currently it's my daily razor and i absolutely love it.
If a closer shave is what you're looking for and your existing de razors don't give you weepers and nicks, the R41 is a good test to see if more blade feel is something you will like. When used with no pressure, i don't find it aggressive at all. I'll be getting the Lupo
95 OC later this month and am curious how it compares. I also have the 95 SB and to me it's not quite as efficient as the R41.

 

[Guido75]

Callling Fatips's alignment a challenge is just putting it mild. Let's call things what they are. I would define it as a nightmare. Sometimes I needed close to 20 minutes to align a Fatip. Currently have more than 5 of them "Artisan pieces" as one Italian seller said as an excuse for a defective one he sold me. He just wanted to tell me "It is what it is, you are not supposed to get a replacement for missing plating spots."

Well I am with you on the plating - do not get me started. My Special Edition was already shedding its black after a month. But as far as alignment goes, I do need to fiddle and fortunately not in the region of 20 minutes.

But indeed the KCG in my case has a German head (jury is still out on which one it actually is) and loading a blade is simply putting in on the parts and screwing the razor back together - and done. Always 100% alignment.

Cheers,

Guido

 

[Guido75]

and your existing de razors don't give you weepers and nicks, the R41 is a good test to see if more blade feel is something you will like.

This was exactly my whole aim. Spot on @cavediver! Just wanted to test. And I know for a fact that I am getting a new razor for my birthday soon. That is the Razorine Flatboy with a lot of blade feel from what I have seen.
So for me this morning was trsting the waters for when the Razorine is in my hands for its maiden shave .

Best,

Guido

 

[Guido75]

Ok, learned some more. From both you gents and from observing the cap's threading. It turned out that the first turning actually had a burr and once I filed that away the cap fitted the KCG handle. Not other handles by the way, so maybe the threading inside the KCG is a little more forgiving / less tight.

With the original cap on that came with the baseplate, the whole razorhead actually resembles the left hand side of @Iridian pictures really well. Blade exposure is also way less than this morning, confirming @ivan_101's input on the size diameter of the cap over the years (which he already knew of course, but just my confirmation that the supplied cap is indeed the broader one and the one I used this morning was the King C Gillette cap - turning my initial experience into a pre 2013 shave as @Iridian stated).

I did not receive an original Mühle packaging, simply because the shop owner unscrewed it from a handle on display. It is still a clone if I inspect the plating more closely, but comparing pictures it comes across as a plausible clone.

Anyway, I had fun testing it. Learned a lot about the R41 (thanks to the B&B community) and my shaving technique along the way. I think I will shave with it again with the original cap tomorrow to notice the difference, but once my Razorie is unpacked I think it will either leave my rotation or be at the back end.

Cheers,

Guido.

 

[Attog]

Just used my R41 (Grande handle - zamak) today to remove 3 days of growth (with Perma sharp blade in it), it did it’s job but one needs to be very careful with it.
However interestingly enough if I pair my R41 with Tiger platinum blades this razor suddenly become very forgiving and smooth but also a tad less effective. (If I had to use R41 every day I would do it only with Tiger blades). So I recommend this combo for daily use of R41 to everybody.

 

[Iridian]

Tiger blades are extremely mild. But it comes with not being overly sharp and effective indeed. They are great for cushioning razors, but I would still rather recommend Voshkods or Gillette 7 o'clock Super Platinums. Still well cushioned, but IMO sharper.