My first Japanese stone

[mainaman]

Would these replace the honzan slurry stone? Why not just use a diamond plate to raise a slurry on your finisher instead if honzan?

Though it may be fun to play with various naguras on one stone to take a razor from bevel setting to finishing, I can't imagine it being faster than a dilucot with a coti (though I say this with no basis as having not used naguras - just seems with all the rinsing and changing nagura that it would take more time).

May have to give it a try sometime in the future, but first want to see how good my JNat is at just finishing first. Was just planning on using a diamond plate to raise a slurry though and hope this works.

I am getting better results with no diamond plate slurry, also even 1.2k doamond plate does not leave smooth enough surface for best results IMHO.

 

[heirkb]

I am getting better results with no diamond plate slurry, also even 1.2k doamond plate does not leave smooth enough surface for best results IMHO.

You mean a smooth enough surface on the hone itself? Is this an issue that's unique to the Japanese stones? I've read elsewhere that people haven't felt any noticeable difference between edges off their Eschers lapped at 325 and Eschers lapped up past 1k

 

[life2short1971]

The longer you use the slurry the more it breaks down to become finer is my understanding.

 

[mainaman]

You mean a smooth enough surface on the hone itself? Is this an issue that's unique to the Japanese stones? I've read elsewhere that people haven't felt any noticeable difference between edges off their Eschers lapped at 325 and Eschers lapped up past 1k

I can't comment on any other stone except my own, for me there is difference.

 

[Joe Edson]

I can't comment on any other stone except my own, for me there is difference.

Guess I'm not following you. Do you use your japanese stone with just water only having lapped it up to 2K or beyond?

Or are you saying that you use a honzan slurry stone, and your japanese stone is also lapped well beyond 2K.

I lapped mine to 2K and am going to try it out tonight with a slurry ala Jim's method as I don't have a honzan. I guess I could lap it past 2K by using a coti or something to lap it further?

JNat's are so confusing

Edit: These questions are for finishing only

 

[SliceOfLife]

You've seen my stone, right Mainaman? EXTREMELY hard surface. Glasslike. Very dark Karasu. Takes work to raise a slurry, even with a 220grit DMT. Which of those two honyama's would you think would be better for me? The Asagi or the other? (I don't know what Asagi means).

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2212129&postcount=12

It's the stone on the wood base on the right of this pic. It has a bit of slurry residue and poor lighting on it. In person it is slightly darker than that. It also has some a small chalky yellow chunk at one end (feel somewhat like fools gold, can crumble them with a finger nail. A vein of the same material and a vein that looks like a pencil line. It is a dead on match for graphite colorand is perfectly straight and very thin (looks like a crack, but doesn't go down into the stone any, just a surface vein).

 

[mainaman]

You've seen my stone, right Mainaman? EXTREMELY hard surface. Glasslike. Very dark Karasu. Takes work to raise a slurry, even with a 220grit DMT. Which of those two honyama's would you think would be better for me? The Asagi or the other? (I don't know what Asagi means).

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2212129&postcount=12

It's the stone on the wood base on the right of this pic. It has a bit of slurry residue and poor lighting on it. In person it is slightly darker than that. It also has some a small chalky yellow chunk at one end (feel somewhat like fools gold, can crumble them with a finger nail. A vein of the same material and a vein that looks like a pencil line. It is a dead on match for graphite colorand is perfectly straight and very thin (looks like a crack, but doesn't go down into the stone any, just a surface vein).

either one will work .

 

[mainaman]

Guess I'm not following you. Do you use your japanese stone with just water only having lapped it up to 2K or beyond?

Or are you saying that you use a honzan slurry stone, and your japanese stone is also lapped well beyond 2K.

I lapped mine to 2K and am going to try it out tonight with a slurry ala Jim's method as I don't have a honzan. I guess I could lap it past 2K by using a coti or something to lap it further?

JNat's are so confusing

Edit: These questions are for finishing only

I use honzan or slurry from 1.2k dmt, then rinse and smooth the stone with one of my other Jnat finishers, coticule works too IME.
Again I feel there is difference but I am not claiming this is universal effect. I also have seen vids of people in Japan smoothing their stones this way my guess is for getting smoother surface.

 

[SliceOfLife]

either one will work .

Thanks, I had picked out the Asagi since some quick googlefu said Asagi's are harder than most, so I figured closer matching the hardness of my hone couldn't be a bad thing. And by the time I was checking out, the other stone had already sold, so there ya go. All that worrying didn't matter in the end.


My technique will likely be a coticule up to it's max, then my Karasu with this rubbing stone. I just got a Sigma Power 10k (arrived today), so I may see if it helps between the coti and the Karasu.

 

[Woodash]

I am getting better results with no diamond plate slurry, also even 1.2k doamond plate does not leave smooth enough surface for best results IMHO.

Just to clarify: you're saying that you prefer to use a honzan stone to raise a slurry rather than a diamond plate - with the implication being that the diamond plate (at 325, 660, 1200...whatever) degrades the surface of the hone slightly? Maybe I'm misreading that.

My thing is that unless you use the diamond plate, you never know what kind of slurry you're working with - it may be from the hone or it may be from the nagura/honzan. OK - I don't have a honzan that is harder than my hone, so this is the case for me. Of the two that I have, each will raise a slurry of a different color than my hone. In that case, I am clearly honing on honzan slurry with the hone more or less acting as a flat plate.... . And there is a difference in performance between honzan slurry and hone slurry - in my case.

If the diamond plate roughens the surface enough to make a difference to the edge, well, that throws the whole game off, but wow - it seems like it has to be so minor. Interesting...

 

[SliceOfLife]

Just to clarify: you're saying that you prefer to use a honzan stone to raise a slurry rather than a diamond plate - with the implication being that the diamond plate (at 325, 660, 1200...whatever) degrades the surface of the hone slightly? Maybe I'm misreading that.

My thing is that unless you use the diamond plate, you never know what kind of slurry you're working with - it may be from the hone or it may be from the nagura/honzan. OK - I don't have a honzan that is harder than my hone, so this is the case for me. Of the two that I have, each will raise a slurry of a different color than my hone. In that case, I am clearly honing on honzan slurry with the hone more or less acting as a flat plate.... . And there is a difference in performance between honzan slurry and hone slurry - in my case.

If the diamond plate roughens the surface enough to make a difference to the edge, well, that throws the whole game off, but wow - it seems like it has to be so minor. Interesting...

Harder element does not exclusively abrade the softer one. So you're actually honing with a mixture of your hone and slurry stone particles.

 

[mainaman]

Just to clarify: you're saying that you prefer to use a honzan stone to raise a slurry rather than a diamond plate - with the implication being that the diamond plate (at 325, 660, 1200...whatever) degrades the surface of the hone slightly? Maybe I'm misreading that.

My thing is that unless you use the diamond plate, you never know what kind of slurry you're working with - it may be from the hone or it may be from the nagura/honzan. OK - I don't have a honzan that is harder than my hone, so this is the case for me. Of the two that I have, each will raise a slurry of a different color than my hone. In that case, I am clearly honing on honzan slurry with the hone more or less acting as a flat plate.... . And there is a difference in performance between honzan slurry and hone slurry - in my case.

If the diamond plate roughens the surface enough to make a difference to the edge, well, that throws the whole game off, but wow - it seems like it has to be so minor. Interesting...

correct, and if the honzan is fine enough it does not matter.
As far as diamond plate effect on surface , again its how I feel besed on my experience with my stones not claiming it applies in general.

 

[Woodash]

Harder element does not exclusively abrade the softer one. So you're actually honing with a mixture of your hone and slurry stone particles.

Of course. I guess I'm just saying that I prefer to know what I'm working with - no mixtures unless I'm specifically intending that.

correct, and if the honzan is fine enough it does not matter.
As far as diamond plate effect on surface , again its how I feel bese on my experience with my stones not claiming it applies in general.

I wind up using a 1200 DMT card and calling it even (until I change my mind!).

 

[heirkb]

correct, and if the honzan is fine enough it does not matter.
As far as diamond plate effect on surface , again its how I feel besed on my experience with my stones not claiming it applies in general.

I want to try out your method to see if I can feel a difference. I have a DMT 120 grit for lapping. Should I lap with that and then move straight to using a tomonagura/another Japanese stone/coticule to further smooth out the stone? Or do I need an intermediate lapper in between those two like a DMT 600 or 1200?

 

[Muscles]

Ok, so now I have something to report.

Since I have little a lot less honing experience than all the Honemeisters on here I figured no matter how I tested this stone my word wouldn't count for squat. Never the less, a little experiment was in order for me to prove to myself wether this stone form Carter was good or bad. However, to figure that out I needed a benchmark stone - my select coticule.

I am quietly confident in using my coticule and I have been shaving with razors I have honed myself and finished on my coti for the past 6 weeks.

My progression to date has been:
King Deluxe 1200
Norton 4k
Norton 8k
Select Coticule & Bout with slurry diluted til just water
Strop 60 laps on canvas the 40 laps on Ken Rups Paladin

I figured I would change as little as possible for this test so I substituted my coti for the J-nat I got from carter so my progression would be:

King Deluxe 1200
Norton 4k
Norton 8k
Tomae Honyama with Slurry (Produced with DMT8C) diluted til just water
Strop 60 laps on canvas the 40 laps on Ken Rups Paladin

I used my Dovo 5/8 on my Coticule and my Dovo 6/8 on the Tomae.

I have now blunted, sharpened, finished and shaved with each razor 3 times and I have to say I am having a hard time distinguishing between the two on initial shaves. I do think now that the coticule provides a slightly smoother shave and the Tomae is (for me) scary sharp and very unforgiving. Both are giving very close shaves. I guess only time will tell which edge holds longest and so from here on through I will only maintain them with stropping on cloth/leather.

Anyway, look back up at the title of this thread...... "My first JNAT" - HAHA Yeah right Today I have placed an order with Takeshi for an Umegahata and have been speaking with Maksim re an Ozuku and will be getting one soon. I also have a couple of synthetic finishers en route - and so it begins

 

[johnmrson]

Good luck with it Muscles, it's a disease with no known cure.
I recently bought a 1k, 5k, 8k and 12k Shapton Pro. Then I was convinced that I need a 2k so I ordered one of them. I then read how alot of people love the finish off a JNAT so I bought one of them as well. Then a bloke who I've bought a couple of custom straights off, e-mails me and says he's got a Shapton 30k that he's looking to get rid of and would I be interested so I've now got one of them in the post.
Then Will P.C decides he want a Le Grelot I've got and offers me a Shapton 16k as a trade. Well what a bloke to do but accept. Lastly, life2short1971 (Scott) sends me an e-mail today asking if I'd be interested in a nice old Thuringian he's got. Crickey.

So now I've got a 1k, 2k, 5k, 8k and 12k Shapton Pros.

As finishers I can go for a 16k and 30k Shapton Pro

or

a Nakayama Asagi

or

a thuringian

 

[Muscles]

Glad to see I am not the only one infected John...

 

[Woodash]

Good luck with it Muscles, it's a disease with no known cure.
I recently bought a 1k, 5k, 8k and 12k Shapton Pro. Then I was convinced that I need a 2k so I ordered one of them. I then read how alot of people love the finish off a JNAT so I bought one of them as well. Then a bloke who I've bought a couple of custom straights off, e-mails me and says he's got a Shapton 30k that he's looking to get rid of and would I be interested so I've now got one of them in the post.
Then Will P.C decides he want a Le Grelot I've got and offers me a Shapton 16k as a trade. Well what a bloke to do but accept. Lastly, life2short1971 (Scott) sends me an e-mail today asking if I'd be interested in a nice old Thuringian he's got. Crickey.

So now I've got a 1k, 2k, 5k, 8k and 12k Shapton Pros.

As finishers I can go for a 16k and 30k Shapton Pro

or

a Nakayama Asagi

or

a thuringian

 

[life2short1971]

Thats how it happenend with me John. One day I had nothing and a week later I have my own quarry.lol

 

[rawface]

There seemed to be a consensus on the Jnat thread on coticule.be that water only was sharp, but harsh. It sounds like there's some further work to do w/ slurry, # of full slurry refreshes, and how long to run a slurry. Mr. Yamashita suggested dry also. The best edge I've tried, had the honer running the final refresh to the consistency of fairly thick mud. 'Very smooth. He prefers more bite, so from that same point, he finds how many laps w/ water only it takes to give enough, but not too much bite.

Pls. keep trying & keep posting your results.