Mühle R41, you are fired.

[Esox]

Mike, you prefer the newer version of the FaTip (aka MK2), right?

My Grande is a Mk.2 yeah. I did think about a Mk.1, but having more blade reveal from the narrower cap wouldnt help with the way I shave.

My beard map below.



Using my Grande, if I drop the angle even a little and shave too steeply over my swirls, the very edge of the blade can flex, tug the hairs and leave me with weepers. A narrower cap allowing more of the blade edge to be revealed, would only make that worse because the blade would be even less rigidly held.

This is why I've stepped up to an SE. SE blades are .009" thick. More than twice as thick as most DE blades and are far stiffer because of it. Using my MMOC I can shave as steep as possible over my swirls and the blade doesnt flex at all. It can still tug though if I shave in the wrong direction at the wrong time.

If I shave directly WTG or directly ATG I get no tugging at all, but if I shave XTG too soon, any blade or razor I've yet used can tug.

This is my problem with my R41. I need to shave directly WTG throughout the entire first pass. Second pass, directly XTG throughout the entire pass and only on the third pass and cleanups can I shave directly ATG, and thats with a fresh Feather blade. If I try and shave ATG on my second pass, which I normally do if I use a second pass, the blade flexes, tugs, skips and stutters.

On my first two shaves with my R41, first with a Derby Extra blade, then with a fresh Polsilver blade, second pass ATG the razor skipped right over my swirls and left lather behind. If I had increased pressure to stop that from happening, I'd have been bleeding, profusely. My Grande, with either blade, just wipes the stubble off with the lather smoothly and cleanly.

 

[alishock]

It's taken me a long time to get to grips with the R41. Before that I had only used a 34C but now I know how to work together with the razor I love it. I do think it's very blade dependent. Gillette Yellows or Astra work best for me.

 

[les24preludes]

It's taken me a long time to get to grips with the R41 but now I know how to work together with the razor I love it. I do think it's very blade dependent. Gillette Yellows or Astra work best for me.

I'm liking my R41 Frankenrazor more and more - Yintal topcap which is a little narrower and titanium handle. It just does what I want it to, and cuts as close as I need it to with no fuss. You can really get to like and appreciate this head design. It's become my go-to DE razor. I like my Fatips but get more out of the R41. Nacet blade today, Yellow the day before and Astra last week, all sharp and work well. Fatips and R41s divide loyalty - my instinct says I'm going with R41.

 

[SCh5]

The most important variable is blade exposure and not blade gap. The gap is simply the distance between the blade and the guard. You can have a huge blade gap and still if the blade exposure is negative you would not even get the blade to touch the skin. For the very same amount of blade exposure, a bigger gap will feel a bit more aggressive because there is a bigger space for the skin to flex towards the blade and a bigger space for lips to get caught in. To show exposure vs. gap, R41 is considered to be one of the most aggressive razors made and it has almost no gap at all. I have and love the 2013 R41 and in my case it was the smoothest and most efficient razor ever, while my Fatip OC was aggressive. "

I have the R41 (post 2013 ) ,the Fatip Original Retro and the Tatara Masamune O.C.
( The Masamune has a blade gap of 0.73 mm and blade exposure of - 0.13 mm ) .

I'm always using Feather blades on all three of them .
I'm greek with dense and wire-hard beard hair.

From my experience :

I've been shaving for over 4 years with the R41 .
Regarding the head design ,finishing is top-class ,
but the Muhle OC head has lots of tolerances ,
While "blade rigidity " is something totally alien .
A lot of blade is exposed after the
(narrow ) clamping points (rails ) till the edge .And the cap's tolerances and/or
Feather's blade curvature ,are not enough to prevent blade flexing .
Regarding the shaving of R41 ,it does indeed bring a very close shave when WTG or XTG.
But I was never able to have a smooth ATG pass with the R41 .
It tugs ,scrapes ,jumps ,chatters and so on .
Going WTG or XTG is pretty fine and I should say that ,
with the appropriate light-hand,care & time given , the shave is usually pretty smooth.

Final verdict : Always gives a pretty good shave ,but not the best possible
(due to not being able to perform a ATG pass ).
The actual shaving needs some available time and lots of caution .

The Fatip Original (OC ) .
Have that for some months now.
Regarding the head the finishing is of low quality .
It has a lot of tolerances when it comes to blade alignment ,
but the blade rigidity provided has nothing to be jealous of some of the so-called Hi-end razors.
It clamps the blade really tight and near the cutting edges .
Regarding the shaving ...
I'm taking advantage of the blade alignment issues the Fatip head has.
I'm mis-aligning the blade ,on purpose .
At one side ( "edge " ) of the razor head the blade is exposed from the cap just a tad -that's the "soft " side -,
while at the other side I'm leaving the blade overly exposed from the cap-the "wild "side.
That misalignment affects directly the blade exposure and the blade rigidity per side .
At the "soft "side might be neutral or even slightly negative blade exposure with very high blade rigidity ,
while at the"wild " side has quite positive blade exposure and some blade flexing .
Quite bipolar character ,but the actual the shave is superb .
Going WTG and XTG with the "wild " side and then perform a last ATG pass using the "soft " side.
Absolute BBS !
Very smooth and very close shave ,
but also needs some attention and time like the R41 .

The Tatara Masamune OC (have it for about a month or so ).
Finishing ,blade alignment ,clamping and rigidity , all fall into the hi-end class !
Very "noble " and agile razor .
Due to the negative exposure does not bring the closest shave when performing
WTG and XTG passes ,but because the former is combined it with extreme blade rigidity ,
the ATG pass is " transparent " .
No hair tugging ,none of blade chattering ,no jumps,
thus ,no nicks ,no cuts ,no irritation ,no in-growns.
Nothing .Totally transparent .
Brings the easiest ,effortless and fastest BBS .
Having a blade exposure of minus thirteen millimeters .

The Fatip stays.As a very capable brass razor .
The Masamune is rotated with a Karve D as daily drivers.
But I can't think another single reason -beyond looks -to keep the beast ...
R41 you're fired .

 

[Esox]

I have the R41 (post 2013 ) ,the Fatip Original Retro and the Tatara Masamune O.C.
( The Masamune has a blade gap of 0.73 mm and blade exposure of - 0.13 mm ) .

I'm always using Feather blades on all three of them .
I'm greek with dense and wire-hard beard hair.

From my experience :

I've been shaving for over 4 years with the R41 .
Regarding the head design ,finishing is top-class ,
but the Muhle OC head has lots of tolerances ,
While "blade rigidity " is something totally alien .
A lot of blade is exposed after the
(narrow ) clamping points (rails ) till the edge .And the cap's tolerances and/or
Feather's blade curvature ,are not enough to prevent blade flexing .
Regarding the shaving of R41 ,it does indeed bring a very close shave when WTG or XTG.
But I was never able to have a smooth ATG pass with the R41 .
It tugs ,scrapes ,jumps ,chatters and so on .
Going WTG or XTG is pretty fine and I should say that ,
with the appropriate light-hand,care & time given , the shave is usually pretty smooth.

Final verdict : Always gives a pretty good shave ,but not the best possible
(due to not being able to perform a ATG pass ).
The actual shaving needs some available time and lots of caution .

The Fatip Original (OC ) .
Have that for some months now.
Regarding the head the finishing is of low quality .
It has a lot of tolerances when it comes to blade alignment ,
but the blade rigidity provided has nothing to be jealous of some of the so-called Hi-end razors.
It clamps the blade really tight and near the cutting edges .
Regarding the shaving ...
I'm taking advantage of the blade alignment issues the Fatip head has.
I'm mis-aligning the blade ,on purpose .
At one side ( "edge " ) of the razor head the blade is exposed from the cap just a tad -that's the "soft " side -,
while at the other side I'm leaving the blade overly exposed from the cap-the "wild "side.
That misalignment affects directly the blade exposure and the blade rigidity per side .
At the "soft "side might be neutral or even slightly negative blade exposure with very high blade rigidity ,
while at the"wild " side has quite positive blade exposure and some blade flexing .
Quite bipolar character ,but the actual the shave is superb .
Going WTG and XTG with the "wild " side and then perform a last ATG pass using the "soft " side.
Absolute BBS !
Very smooth and very close shave ,
but also needs some attention and time like the R41 .

The Tatara Masamune OC (have it for about a month or so ).
Finishing ,blade alignment ,clamping and rigidity , all fall into the hi-end class !
Very "noble " and agile razor .
Due to the negative exposure does not bring the closest shave when performing
WTG and XTG passes ,but because the former is combined it with extreme blade rigidity ,
the ATG pass is " transparent " .
No hair tugging ,none of blade chattering ,no jumps,
thus ,no nicks ,no cuts ,no irritation ,no in-growns.
Nothing .Totally transparent .
Brings the easiest ,effortless and fastest BBS .
Having a blade exposure of minus thirteen millimeters .

The Fatip stays.As a very capable brass razor .
The Masamune is rotated with a Karve D as daily drivers.
But I can't think another single reason -beyond looks -to keep the beast ...
R41 you're fired .

 

[jmudrick]

I have the R41 (post 2013 ) ,the Fatip Original Retro and the Tatara Masamune O.C.
( The Masamune has a blade gap of 0.73 mm and blade exposure of - 0.13 mm ) .

I'm always using Feather blades on all three of them .
I'm greek with dense and wire-hard beard hair.

From my experience :

I've been shaving for over 4 years with the R41 .
Regarding the head design ,finishing is top-class ,
but the Muhle OC head has lots of tolerances ,
While "blade rigidity " is something totally alien .
A lot of blade is exposed after the
(narrow ) clamping points (rails ) till the edge .And the cap's tolerances and/or
Feather's blade curvature ,are not enough to prevent blade flexing .
Regarding the shaving of R41 ,it does indeed bring a very close shave when WTG or XTG.
But I was never able to have a smooth ATG pass with the R41 .
It tugs ,scrapes ,jumps ,chatters and so on .
Going WTG or XTG is pretty fine and I should say that ,
with the appropriate light-hand,care & time given , the shave is usually pretty smooth.

Final verdict : Always gives a pretty good shave ,but not the best possible
(due to not being able to perform a ATG pass ).
The actual shaving needs some available time and lots of caution .

The Fatip Original (OC ) .
Have that for some months now.
Regarding the head the finishing is of low quality .
It has a lot of tolerances when it comes to blade alignment ,
but the blade rigidity provided has nothing to be jealous of some of the so-called Hi-end razors.
It clamps the blade really tight and near the cutting edges .
Regarding the shaving ...
I'm taking advantage of the blade alignment issues the Fatip head has.
I'm mis-aligning the blade ,on purpose .
At one side ( "edge " ) of the razor head the blade is exposed from the cap just a tad -that's the "soft " side -,
while at the other side I'm leaving the blade overly exposed from the cap-the "wild "side.
That misalignment affects directly the blade exposure and the blade rigidity per side .
At the "soft "side might be neutral or even slightly negative blade exposure with very high blade rigidity ,
while at the"wild " side has quite positive blade exposure and some blade flexing .
Quite bipolar character ,but the actual the shave is superb .
Going WTG and XTG with the "wild " side and then perform a last ATG pass using the "soft " side.
Absolute BBS !
Very smooth and very close shave ,
but also needs some attention and time like the R41 .

The Tatara Masamune OC (have it for about a month or so ).
Finishing ,blade alignment ,clamping and rigidity , all fall into the hi-end class !
Very "noble " and agile razor .
Due to the negative exposure does not bring the closest shave when performing
WTG and XTG passes ,but because the former is combined it with extreme blade rigidity ,
the ATG pass is " transparent " .
No hair tugging ,none of blade chattering ,no jumps,
thus ,no nicks ,no cuts ,no irritation ,no in-growns.
Nothing .Totally transparent .
Brings the easiest ,effortless and fastest BBS .
Having a blade exposure of minus thirteen millimeters .

The Fatip stays.As a very capable brass razor .
The Masamune is rotated with a Karve D as daily drivers.
But I can't think another single reason -beyond looks -to keep the beast ...
R41 you're fired .

Similar observations about all three razors. I do wish the Tatara had a bit more exposure but it's still very very capable.

 

[SCh5]

To correct a mistake : It's "minus zero point thirteen millimeters " regarding the blade exposure of the Tatara Masamune .

The way I see it :

Blade exposure : The more positive ,the more close the shave ( per pass ) ,but also the higher the chances for a "rough " experience .
Neutral or negative blade exposures are not so efficient (per pass ) ,but they provide a rather smooth shave
(allowing for more passes or going ATG ) .

Blade gap : If the skin is thin and stretchy (thus probably also quite sensitive )
and/ or comes with lots of " surface blemishes" like moles,zits,scars,etc ,then a small gap would be ideal.
For a thicker skin (not easy to "fold " and /or stretch ) having also a smoother surface ,
a bigger blade gap would bring better results ,in such case.

Blade rigidity *: Directly affects blade flexing and blade chattering ,especially regarding the ATG pass(es).The higher the blade rigidity the smoother the shave.No matter if shallow or steep angles are used .

* Provided by clamping point ( rail width & distance from cutting edge ) and keeping short the free-end & clamping distances .NOT achieved by blade thickness or blade curvature or cap upper support.

Most crucial parameter on a DE razor ( at least for me ) is blade rigidity .

The blade gap should be chosen ,based upon the individual's skin type .

As for blade exposure ,me thinks it's actually a matter of taste .
You like lot's of blade feel and high efficiency combined with less passes ( maybe only going WTG & XTG ) ?
Go for a positive blade exposure,but be prepared .There's no "forgiveness" there .
If from the other hand, you really don't mind a third ATG pass and/or some buffing ,while you dislike blade feel
but you're also aiming for a trouble (and blood ) free shave ?
Neutral or negative blade exposures is for you then !

The R41 and blade rigidity never met each other .
In fact Muhle is on the DE razor manufacturing business ,just a decade maybe .
Muhle has always been a shaving brush manufacturer.
I have all three razor (heads ) from them ( "R41" Open comb Zamak ,"R89" Closed comb Zamak ,"R96" Rocca Closed comb 316L ).
None of them has decent blade rigidity .
Not that they are not good ,handsome or capable razors .
It's just my own face and neck that really prefer other razors.
The Tatara ,Fatip and Karve are very different razors between each other .
But they all share the same characteristic : high blade rigidity .

BTW ...
About the Single Edge razors ,two things are widely known (more or less ) :
1 ) SE razors are far better than DE razors,regarding final shaving results .
2 ) SE razors provide extreme blade rigidity versus the DE razors .
If so ,then how come ,us the DE razor users ,
quite often we overlook the blade rigidity factor of a razor ,
preferring to over-analyze parameters and variables
(...of rather personal preference,actually ) like blade gap ,blade exposure and shaving angle ?

 

[Esox]

To correct a mistake : It's "minus zero point thirteen millimeters " regarding the blade exposure of the Tatara Masamune .

The way I see it :

Blade exposure : The more positive ,the more close the shave ( per pass ) ,but also the higher the chances for a "rough " experience .
Neutral or negative blade exposures are not so efficient (per pass ) ,but they provide a rather smooth shave
(allowing for more passes or going ATG ) .

Blade gap : If the skin is thin and stretchy (thus probably also quite sensitive )
and/ or comes with lots of " surface blemishes" like moles,zits,scars,etc ,then a small gap would be ideal.
For a thicker skin (not easy to "fold " and /or stretch ) having also a smoother surface ,
a bigger blade gap would bring better results ,in such case.

Blade rigidity *: Directly affects blade flexing and blade chattering ,especially regarding the ATG pass(es).The higher the blade rigidity the smoother the shave.No matter if shallow or steep angles are used .

* Provided by clamping point ( rail width & distance from cutting edge ) and keeping short the free-end & clamping distances .NOT achieved by blade thickness or blade curvature or cap upper support.

Most crucial parameter on a DE razor ( at least for me ) is blade rigidity .

The blade gap should be chosen ,based upon the individual's skin type .

As for blade exposure ,me thinks it's actually a matter of taste .
You like lot's of blade feel and high efficiency combined with less passes ( maybe only going WTG & XTG ) ?
Go for a positive blade exposure,but be prepared .There's no "forgiveness" there .
If from the other hand, you really don't mind a third ATG pass and/or some buffing ,while you dislike blade feel
but you're also aiming for a trouble (and blood ) free shave ?
Neutral or negative blade exposures is for you then !

The R41 and blade rigidity never met each other .
In fact Muhle is on the DE razor manufacturing business ,just a decade maybe .
Muhle has always been a shaving brush manufacturer.
I have all three razor (heads ) from them ( "R41" Open comb Zamak ,"R89" Closed comb Zamak ,"R96" Rocca Closed comb 316L ).
None of them has decent blade rigidity .
Not that they are not good ,handsome or capable razors .
It's just my own face and neck that really prefer other razors.
The Tatara ,Fatip and Karve are very different razors between each other .
But they all share the same characteristic : high blade rigidity .

I agree with everything you've said.

1 ) SE razors are far better than DE razors,regarding final shaving results .

I can only speak for myself, but the differences between DE and SE are obvious. My MMOC shaves closer and smoother which gives me a longer lasting BBS finish quicker than my Grande. Because the blade doesnt flex at all, its more comfortable on my skin and my skin has actually improved since I started using it more often.

2 ) SE razors provide extreme blade rigidity versus the DE razors .

Because of that, I find SE's much smoother, easier to use and less critical of angle of use. The pressure applied becomes more important. I can use, and did yesterday use my MMOC with a very steep angle on shave #11 on this blade. The entire shave was done with the cap completely off my skin and with a lot of pressure applied. My shaves have never been so easy, so comfortable and so close.

If so ,then how come ,us the DE razor users ,
quite often we overlook the blade rigidity factor of a razor ,
preferring to over-analyze parameters and variables
(...of rather personal preference,actually ) like blade gap ,blade exposure and shaving angle ?

Thats difficult to answer. I dont believe its that widely known or understood but thats changing, especially with Chris Kirchen of Karve. He said this in an AMA on Reddit;

"The geometry came from a bunch of research to familiarize myself with how razors are configured and then creating analogies between how a blade is configured and real world applications. The one I'm most proud of (because I saw an immediate improvement), was to support the blade as much as possible as a way of eliminating chatter). All razors support the blade on the top side with the top cap, but chatter comes from cyclical loading...force, no force, force, no force, etc. The unloading comes from loading the blade during cutting, but then something gives (such as the whisker that is being cut) and the blade unloads for a split second. The top cap can only help with the loading, so the baseplate has to work together with it."

I completely agree with Chris about that. Blade flex is a cycle. For as long as the razor is moving, the blade is meeting varying degrees of resistance. If the blade is not supported by both the cap and the base, the blade will give(flex) if it meets enough resistance. Thats not to say it will for everyone though. I've read from a member here that has no issues shaving with his R41 and a Derby Extra blade. Thats virtually impossible for me, but if he can, all the power to him. I can only wish my stubble was that easy to cut.

I see this whole theory of blade rigidity in relation to head design as just getting started. Its the reason I joined this forum. Before I was a member here I read posts by @rabidus going back years where he was trying to explain the concept. I read everything I could and, eventually, I understood it but I needed to see pictures explaining it to understand it better. I joined here so that I could see the pictures that helped me understand. Then, with his help again, I put it into practice. It was eyeopening.

Other razor designers, Wolfman and Timeless for example, make rigid designs, but they've never publicly explained why they do.

I believe this needs to be understood by more mainstream DE users. Especially those that have trouble shaving ATG or dont believe they can. You can! You just need the proper tools for the job you're giving it.

Every DE razor user should try both an R41 and a Fatip at some point. Learn them both and see for yourself which is the easier to use, and understand why.

Gap and how the skin travels through that gap is a more complex aspect and as you say, it depends on ones skin and how much pressure is applied at a neutral shaving angle riding both cap and OC/SB. The more pressure thats applied, the more skin travels through that gap and the deeper it travels into that gap increasing the angle of skin to edge and the pressure of skin to edge. The larger the gap, the deeper the skin can travel into it and the steeper the angle of blade edge to skin creating a more effective shave.

For me, that results in irritation because the skin is, essentially, forced against the edge of the blade. If I use razors with gap, as gap increases, so does my irritation. My Gillette NEW SC that has a very modest blade gap with a Polsilver blade for example. I can do 2 passes and another clean up on my jawline and neck and have a BBS finish with just a hint of irritation.

Using my Gillette Slim, I need to use it on 7-9 and prefer 9 because its more effective, is a very smooth shave because its a more rigid design, but the gap is huge. Three full passes with a Polsilver in it and I have a very close shave, but my skin is red, warm and feels raw.

Using my Grande, which has far less gap, and a Kai blade which gives an extra .004" of blade exposure per side, I've done five passes ATG without the slightest bit of irritation. Thats because my skin isnt traveling through a gap and being, basically, pinched against the blades edge.

I dont personally believe a large gap is necessary. Finding the right combination of gap and blade exposure, is the important part because they work together.

I personally find all of this very interesting. Through understanding all of the various aspects and the physics behind them has given me the best shaves of my life.

 

[HereticHermit]

^^ THIS ^^

 

[BenBest]

You're welcome!
__________

I think the Fatip Grande is perfect as it is. The best DE head on the market in my opinion, matched with the perfect handle. The balance point is right behind the head and it never feels head or handle heavy. The handle is the right length and thickness, for me anyway.

I dont think a shim is in any way necessary in a Fatip, but it may be in an R41.

Blade choice is more personal. The blade doesnt need to match the razor as much as it needs to match the users skin and hair type.

The one possible drawback to a rigid design such as the Fatip is blade choice however. Some middle of the road blades that work very well for me in a razor that has more blade gap, like Blue Diamond Titanium blades in my NEW SC for example, may tug in the Grande. Increasing blade gap lends a mechanical advantage and with a very rigid design and minimal gap you'll feel exactly how difficult it is to cut the hairs cleanly. If the blade tugs and you cant manage to find an angle to eliminate that tugging, you need a different blade. Not necessarily a sharper blade though.

My first shave done entirely ATG at ~48 hours was with a Feather blade. I thought 'sharper' would make it easier. That shave took me 3 full passes, all done ATG, for a BBS finish. Doing the same shave testing other blades I found two that let me shave like that comfortably, quickly and easily. Polsilver and Gillette Yellow. Feather blades are said to be sharper and they very likely are, but they dont slice through my hair composition as easily as Polsilver, Gillette Yellow or Derby Extra for that matter. This is where I believe the blades coatings come into play and we're all different.

Once I put it all together its very difficult to make a change. The only step up for me was to my MMOC.

None of this is to say the R41 is a bad razor, its not. It is however more challenging to use. Some may enjoy that. I personally like a quick, easy and comfortable shave. I can have a comfortable shave with my R41, but it sure wont be a quick one.

Thanks so much for taking the time to give such a thorough evaluation, of your experiences with the Fatip.
It sounds exactly what I’m after.
Thanks heaps , Ben

 

[Tanuki]

Using my Grande, which has far less gap, and a Kai blade which gives an extra .004" of blade exposure per side, I've done five passes ATG without the slightest bit of irritation. Thats because my skin isnt traveling through a gap and being, basically, pinched against the blades edge.

I would like to hear from someone who uses the Masamune OC with a Kai blade. The Kai woke up my iKon B1 slant. On the slant topic, I’m just starting out with a Wunderbar, but blade rigidity seems excellent in that razor after a few Voskhod shaves.

 

[nav]

I agree with everything you've said.




I can only speak for myself, but the differences between DE and SE are obvious. My MMOC shaves closer and smoother which gives me a longer lasting BBS finish quicker than my Grande. Because the blade doesnt flex at all, its more comfortable on my skin and my skin has actually improved since I started using it more often.



Because of that, I find SE's much smoother, easier to use and less critical of angle of use. The pressure applied becomes more important. I can use, and did yesterday use my MMOC with a very steep angle on shave #11 on this blade. The entire shave was done with the cap completely off my skin and with a lot of pressure applied. My shaves have never been so easy, so comfortable and so close.



Thats difficult to answer. I dont believe its that widely known or understood but thats changing, especially with Chris Kirchen of Karve. He said this in an AMA on Reddit;

"The geometry came from a bunch of research to familiarize myself with how razors are configured and then creating analogies between how a blade is configured and real world applications. The one I'm most proud of (because I saw an immediate improvement), was to support the blade as much as possible as a way of eliminating chatter). All razors support the blade on the top side with the top cap, but chatter comes from cyclical loading...force, no force, force, no force, etc. The unloading comes from loading the blade during cutting, but then something gives (such as the whisker that is being cut) and the blade unloads for a split second. The top cap can only help with the loading, so the baseplate has to work together with it."

I completely agree with Chris about that. Blade flex is a cycle. For as long as the razor is moving, the blade is meeting varying degrees of resistance. If the blade is not supported by both the cap and the base, the blade will give(flex) if it meets enough resistance. Thats not to say it will for everyone though. I've read from a member here that has no issues shaving with his R41 and a Derby Extra blade. Thats virtually impossible for me, but if he can, all the power to him. I can only wish my stubble was that easy to cut.

I see this whole theory of blade rigidity in relation to head design as just getting started. Its the reason I joined this forum. Before I was a member here I read posts by @rabidus going back years where he was trying to explain the concept. I read everything I could and, eventually, I understood it but I needed to see pictures explaining it to understand it better. I joined here so that I could see the pictures that helped me understand. Then, with his help again, I put it into practice. It was eyeopening.

Other razor designers, Wolfman and Timeless for example, make rigid designs, but they've never publicly explained why they do.

I believe this needs to be understood by more mainstream DE users. Especially those that have trouble shaving ATG or dont believe they can. You can! You just need the proper tools for the job you're giving it.

Every DE razor user should try both an R41 and a Fatip at some point. Learn them both and see for yourself which is the easier to use, and understand why.

Gap and how the skin travels through that gap is a more complex aspect and as you say, it depends on ones skin and how much pressure is applied at a neutral shaving angle riding both cap and OC/SB. The more pressure thats applied, the more skin travels through that gap and the deeper it travels into that gap increasing the angle of skin to edge and the pressure of skin to edge. The larger the gap, the deeper the skin can travel into it and the steeper the angle of blade edge to skin creating a more effective shave.

For me, that results in irritation because the skin is, essentially, forced against the edge of the blade. If I use razors with gap, as gap increases, so does my irritation. My Gillette NEW SC that has a very modest blade gap with a Polsilver blade for example. I can do 2 passes and another clean up on my jawline and neck and have a BBS finish with just a hint of irritation.

Using my Gillette Slim, I need to use it on 7-9 and prefer 9 because its more effective, is a very smooth shave because its a more rigid design, but the gap is huge. Three full passes with a Polsilver in it and I have a very close shave, but my skin is red, warm and feels raw.

Using my Grande, which has far less gap, and a Kai blade which gives an extra .004" of blade exposure per side, I've done five passes ATG without the slightest bit of irritation. Thats because my skin isnt traveling through a gap and being, basically, pinched against the blades edge.

I dont personally believe a large gap is necessary. Finding the right combination of gap and blade exposure, is the important part because they work together.

I personally find all of this very interesting. Through understanding all of the various aspects and the physics behind them has given me the best shaves of my life.

Absolutely!!

For me, blade rigidity is first then it's a combo of gap and exposure. These three combined determine whether I like a razor or not.

The Karve D plate is the perfect combo for me due to the rigidity, large gap but low exposure.

Then there's the Rockwell with its rigidity, mid range gap (R4) and I guess, neutral exposure. Plus its big, hefty head...all combine to give me a great shave.
For whatever reason, I use R6 on the 6C to get the same shave as the R4 on the 6S.

The progress is the same as the Rockwell minus the rigidity but it's still a great shaver due to the extreme blade bend/angle.

 

[Danjo312]

I would like to hear from someone who uses the Masamune OC with a Kai blade. The Kai woke up my iKon B1 slant. On the slant topic, I’m just starting out with a Wunderbar, but blade rigidity seems excellent in that razor after a few Voskhod shaves.

I‘m awaiting the Masamune OC, should arrive in a few days. Got the B1 as well, but only Polsilver seem to work with that one, everything else is a nightmare, especially Feather! Nearly killed myself with those...
I’ll get myself a pack of Kai‘s (the normal stainless ones?) and post an update!


Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk

 

[HarryAU570]

Very long and painful reading

 

[Esox]

Thanks so much for taking the time to give such a thorough evaluation, of your experiences with the Fatip.
It sounds exactly what I’m after.
Thanks heaps , Ben

You're welcome!

I would like to hear from someone who uses the Masamune OC with a Kai blade. The Kai woke up my iKon B1 slant. On the slant topic, I’m just starting out with a Wunderbar, but blade rigidity seems excellent in that razor after a few Voskhod shaves.

Kai blades I found wonderfully smooth with a 'bare blade' feel to them similar to Astra SP and Nacet. I really like the feel, but they dont cut well for me.

For me, blade rigidity is first then it's a combo of gap and exposure. These three combined determine whether I like a razor or not.

I like lots of blade exposure with a very rigid blade. The more rigid the blade is, the smoother the shave and the easier on my skin.

This is the point really. Finding out what works the best and understanding why. Once you do, the quest for the perfect shave is a whole bunch closer.

 

[Tanuki]

I‘m awaiting the Masamune OC, should arrive in a few days. Got the B1 as well, but only Polsilver seem to work with that one, everything else is a nightmare, especially Feather! Nearly killed myself with those...
I’ll get myself a pack of Kai‘s (the normal stainless ones?) and post an update!


Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk

These are the Kai blades that I opened just to get the iKon B1 going:

I think they are the standard SS Kai.

I have the Polsilver Super Iridium, so that tuck will get cracked open for another B1 trial run. I’m looking forward to your Masamune OC and B1/Kai impressions!

 

[Cal]

I think they are the standard SS Kai.

Yep. (TMK) Kai only make one DE blade and that's it.

 

[Bruce Norris]

My R41 will always have a job with me. I own a wonderful Timeless O.C. .95 and a ATT razor Both are great. My R41 gives me the closest and smoothest shave on a daily basis. No cuts either.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[OldSkoolMillennial]

Blade gap : If the skin is thin and stretchy (thus probably also quite sensitive )
and/ or comes with lots of " surface blemishes" like moles,zits,scars,etc ,then a small gap would be ideal.
For a thicker skin (not easy to "fold " and /or stretch ) having also a smoother surface ,
a bigger blade gap would bring better results ,in such case.

I've never thought about blade gap, skin qualities, and how they play together. This is very interesting. Thanks.

 

[HiPowerRon]

I just discovered the R41 and I think it's a terrific razor. Definitely a keeper for me!