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Merkur or Imposter?

justchilin

justchilin

Ok, what the heck is this? Looks like a Merkur 1904 but the end is different. No markings on it. Saw it online and am puzzled. Anyone shed some light onmy confusion.. Thanks!


(Sorry for the Giant Pictures...)

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mblakele

mblakele

I would put that down as: clone of Gillette Old Type; manufacturer unknown, probably German.

Before WWII there used to be a number of small German companies making DE razors. Few of them put any markings on their razors, and they copied the same handle and head styles. So they are difficult to identify. I think this was done on purpose: at the time, German manufacturing was seen by other countries much as China is seen today.
 
nemo

nemo

Lunatic Fringe
Staff member
German 1904 style knock off -- they are a good quality no-name razor with a differential head (different blade gaps side to side) and pop up occasionally. More aggressive than a 1904 (commonly called 41C) and worth trying -- I have a couple I use regularly.

 
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justchilin

justchilin

Hmm...interesting... but Im still puzzled... seller claims its early 1900's but how to be sure? Hmmm....
 
mblakele

mblakele

justchilin said:
Hmm...interesting... but Im still puzzled... seller claims its early 1900's but how to be sure? Hmmm....
Click to expand...

Depends on what you call "early". I think it is unlikely to be earlier than 1920s but without having it in hand, you may be stuck. If you had it in hand, a close look might tell you whether or not any of the parts are zamak. Zamak dates from 1929, so I would expect a really early clone to be brass.

As the gent from Éire pointed out, it is a safety-bar razor. I called it an old-type clone because it was designed to take three-hole blades, but perhaps that is stretching the point. In any case I agree that the really early German clones were open-comb. The first Gillette safety bar was the 1938 Tech, I think. But it would not surprise me if other manufacturers were already making safety-bar razors before then. Maybe someone else can post details about that?
 
justchilin

justchilin

Do these clones offer as good of a shave as Gillettes or other known razors? Not just for this one in particular but in case I run into any others in the future, Im curious as to the quality of these clones. This person in asking about $20 for it, shipped. At first I thought it was a Merkur 1904 and almost jumped at it but decided to ask all of you first. Thank you all for the great responses so far, its interesting how people cloned even razors.I collect early watches and clocks as well, and you see cloning of movements with Japanese makers and such. Anyways, thanks again for great info.
 
Zeppelinkarte

Zeppelinkarte

mblakele said:
I would put that down as: clone of Gillette Old Type; manufacturer unknown, probably German.

Before WWII there used to be a number of small German companies making DE razors. Few of them put any markings on their razors, and they copied the same handle and head styles. So they are difficult to identify. I think this was done on purpose: at the time, German manufacturing was seen by other countries much as China is seen today.
Click to expand...

Huh? Mercedes, BMW, Apollo, Merkur, Mulcuto, Engles to name only a few. Most great straight and DE razors were made in Solingen, Germany. If not 100s of companies at least dozens. Many of the razors were branded and marked, some were not. The razor here in question was a Solingen produced head used by many of the companies that were offering DE razors with their straights. Messerschmidt, Dornier, Junkers, and several others made airframes and engines the west had a hard time keeping up with. The Mercedes and Auto Union race cars were approaching 200 mph in Grand Prix races and record cars near 300 mph. No other country was even remotely competitive. Zeppelins traveling the globe etc. Germany in the 1930s, before WWII, was one of the most technologically advanced countries in the world in most areas. And very innovative with little duplication. Hardly China as seen today. Broad sweeping generalizations usually don't work very well. They borrowed or used a particular razor head to be in the market for DE razor sales while focusing on slants and each had their own unique handle. This was not a borrowing from Gillette. It was a better or at least equal to anything Gillette produced in a safety bar razor at the time. The Tech was comparable but not as effective. Almost all the slants came from Germany. So if your point is that German manufacturing before WWII was looked at by other countries as inferior it was exactly the opposite and everyone was trying to catch up and copy them.
 
nemo

nemo

Lunatic Fringe
Staff member
Zeppelinkarte

Zeppelinkarte

justchilin said:
Do these clones offer as good of a shave as Gillettes or other known razors? Not just for this one in particular but in case I run into any others in the future, Im curious as to the quality of these clones. This person in asking about $20 for it, shipped. At first I thought it was a Merkur 1904 and almost jumped at it but decided to ask all of you first. Thank you all for the great responses so far, its interesting how people cloned even razors.I collect early watches and clocks as well, and you see cloning of movements with Japanese makers and such. Anyways, thanks again for great info.
Click to expand...

To answer your question specifically, there is no better Safety Bar razor from that time period. $20 is a bargain, particularly for the condition it is in. It is Zamak, so if 1929 is the introduction of that material then this dates to the 1930s. This head in this and slant form allow wonderful shaves.
 
mblakele

mblakele

Zeppelinkarte said:
Huh? Mercedes, BMW, Apollo, Merkur, Mulcuto, Engles to name only a few. Most great straight and DE razors were made in Solingen, Germany. If not 100s of companies at least dozens. Many of the razors were branded and marked, some were not. The razor here in question was a Solingen produced head used by many of the companies that were offering DE razors with their straights. Messerschmidt, Dornier, Junkers, and several others made airframes and engines the west had a hard time keeping up with. The Mercedes and Auto Union race cars were approaching 200 mph in Grand Prix races and record cars near 300 mph. No other country was even remotely competitive. Zeppelins traveling the globe etc. Germany in the 1930s, before WWII, was one of the most technologically advanced countries in the world in most areas. And very innovative with little duplication. Hardly China as seen today. Broad sweeping generalizations usually don't work very well. They borrowed or used a particular razor head to be in the market for DE razor sales while focusing on slants and each had their own unique handle. This was not a borrowing from Gillette. It was a better or at least equal to anything Gillette produced in a safety bar razor at the time. The Tech was comparable but not as effective. Almost all the slants came from Germany. So if your point is that German manufacturing before WWII was looked at by other countries as inferior it was exactly the opposite and everyone was trying to catch up and copy them.
Click to expand...

May I offer my apologies if I hurt any feelings? I am more than a bit of a teutonophile myself, and no slight was intended. To be clear, I was referring to contemporary perceptions, which may have been entirely mistaken.

But the more I think about it, the stronger I think the historical comparison is. There are quite a few other parallels between the rise of Germany after ca. 1840s and the modern rise of China, and the way each country was or is perceived by its neighbors. Regrettably arguing my position in detail would almost certainly turn this into a political discussion and cause offense to all involved. So with your permission, I will leave the subject.
 
justchilin

justchilin

mblakele said:
May I offer my apologies if I hurt any feelings? I am more than a bit of a teutonophile myself, and no slight was intended. To be clear, I was referring to contemporary perceptions, which may have been entirely mistaken.

But the more I think about it, the stronger I think the historical comparison is. There are quite a few other parallels between the rise of Germany after ca. 1840s and the modern rise of China, and the way each country was or is perceived by its neighbors. Regrettably arguing my position in detail would almost certainly turn this into a political discussion and cause offense to all involved. So with your permission, I will leave the subject.
Click to expand...

Zeppelinkarte said:
Huh? Mercedes, BMW, Apollo, Merkur, Mulcuto, Engles to name only a few. Most great straight and DE razors were made in Solingen, Germany. If not 100s of companies at least dozens. Many of the razors were branded and marked, some were not. The razor here in question was a Solingen produced head used by many of the companies that were offering DE razors with their straights. Messerschmidt, Dornier, Junkers, and several others made airframes and engines the west had a hard time keeping up with. The Mercedes and Auto Union race cars were approaching 200 mph in Grand Prix races and record cars near 300 mph. No other country was even remotely competitive. Zeppelins traveling the globe etc. Germany in the 1930s, before WWII, was one of the most technologically advanced countries in the world in most areas. And very innovative with little duplication. Hardly China as seen today. Broad sweeping generalizations usually don't work very well. They borrowed or used a particular razor head to be in the market for DE razor sales while focusing on slants and each had their own unique handle. This was not a borrowing from Gillette. It was a better or at least equal to anything Gillette produced in a safety bar razor at the time. The Tech was comparable but not as effective. Almost all the slants came from Germany. So if your point is that German manufacturing before WWII was looked at by other countries as inferior it was exactly the opposite and everyone was trying to catch up and copy them.
Click to expand...

Sooo....... this is a good razor, then? lol.
 
justchilin

justchilin

Ok, so I hit the button on it... actually got it for a few bucks less as the seller kindly accepted an offer... nice! Here are a couple of more pictures form the seller for now until I receive it...Thanks to all for all your help and info....Cant wait to give it a whirl!
$razor.jpg$razor2.jpg
 
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Zeppelinkarte

Zeppelinkarte

mblakele said:
May I offer my apologies if I hurt any feelings? I am more than a bit of a teutonophile myself, and no slight was intended. To be clear, I was referring to contemporary perceptions, which may have been entirely mistaken.

But the more I think about it, the stronger I think the historical comparison is. There are quite a few other parallels between the rise of Germany after ca. 1840s and the modern rise of China, and the way each country was or is perceived by its neighbors. Regrettably arguing my position in detail would almost certainly turn this into a political discussion and cause offense to all involved. So with your permission, I will leave the subject.
Click to expand...

No hurt feelings, btw. No slight taken. I just have a research interest in 1930s Germany focused on racing automobiles (for writing books, magazine articles), a collection of postal history focused on the Graf Zeppelin and in passing, razors. Circa 1840 is a different matter. It would be my belief that Germany by 1900 to 1945 is a very complicated subject politically as you mention but no society was more technologically innovative and creative during the time period. At least until the Nazi's focused it on a second war. But this is way afield from Justchillin buying a razor!!!! Can't help myself sometimes. Sorry.
 
justchilin

justchilin

Sooo... finally got around to shave with this thing and OUCH :cursing:! My face is burning and I didnt even get around to ATG! Maybe my blades (Personna) IDK, but my Gillette OC Pat. 1904 gives me an awesome shave with the same blades and Im very sure I have the technique down right... what happened? Might be the last time I shave with this one... :sad:
 
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