London visit: Trumper and Truefitt and Hill say DO NOT shave against the grain

[gswearengin]

Hi guys,

So I had a quick trip to London this weekend, and of course called in to all of our friends in and around Jermyn Street. I got a shave and haircut at Geo. F. Trumper and also talked shop a bit at T&H. I definitely picked up on a theme that both places strongly advise against shaving against the grain.

The person who cut my hair used an analogy of roofing tiles to prove his point, basically stating that your facial hair is laid out in a similar fashion, with each hair laid slightly underneath the one above it. If you were to remove a roof from the bottom up, you would never be able to put it back together correctly, and a similar thing happens with facial hair in that it doesn't grow back the same way. This causes ingrown hairs which are not always visible, but can be responsible for "9 o'clock shadow" where you have a fresh, close shave but can still see whiskers. I certainly have this problem, and do not have a very thick beard.

He said it was much more important how a shave appeared than how it felt, and said that your skin should pretty much feel BBS with the grain, but you should feel slight stubble against the grain. I certainly can't argue that my skin looked fantastic after the shave, so I am going to try to change my approach at home, as well. For the next month, my regimen will be a three-pass shave consisting of with the grain, across the grain, and then with the grain again. Apparently as my skin recovers and adapts to this process my shaves should get closer and my skin should look better and better.

Thoughts?

Thanks,

Gary

 

[DE Shaver]

I've been shaving the grain since I started shaving, or least close to the start, and that's decades of time. I do not have issues regarding ingrown hair, although occasionally it can happen as it does to anyone. My view is that a shave is to be comfortable and irritation free first, everything else is secondary. I do not appreciate have a full day's discomfort because I was trying to shave too close. As for Truefitt and Hill's take on the matter, that's up to you to if you want to follow it. The question I alway have for any advice received is "why problem will this advice solve for me?"

Personally, I cannot agree with the gentlman's example as hair is dead matter, it does not rebuilt itself in any fashion whatsoever and merely continues to grow out in the same manner after a cut. In addition, beard growth differs for each person and are not necessarily laid in an arrayed fashion. I know of many people that have swirls in their beard growth. What this mean is that hair won't growth back thicker, thinner or in a different direction, unless hair follicle itself is damaged. In that case, your technique is not only off but downright unhealthy to your beard.

 

[honed]

I do not think shaving ATG is a problem as long as your technique is good enough & your skin can tolerate it. Some people just can't take it. It's genetics.

And he does offer some really good advice re: it's the look&feel of the shave that is important. Anything over a DFS is just done for your own satisfaction.
But if you get BBS without irritation & your face feels good, I do not see any reason why you shouldn't go ATG
I certainly do it when I feel up for it.

 

[Greybeard]

I do not think shaving ATG is a problem as long as your technique is good enough & your skin can tolerate it. Some people just can't take it. It's genetics.

And he does offer some really good advice re: it's the look&feel of the shave that is important. Anything over a DFS is just done for your own satisfaction.
But if you get BBS without irritation & your face feels good, I do not see any reason why you shouldn't go ATG
I certainly do it when I feel up for it.

I agree. A BBS is not necessary. I always shave ATG since I rarely get irritation, never get ingrowns and really like the feel of a BBS shave. The key for me was mapping out my grain pattern since it changes direction in 6 different zones on my face.

 

[Tha Baron]

Based on the horrible shave I got at the T+H in Chicago, I wouldn't trust any advice they give at to how I should shave.

It's pretty clear in my experience with numerous hardware and software shaving products you can not reasonably set hard and fast guidelines for everybody. As always, YMMV.

 

[malocchio]

I've been shaving the grain since I started shaving, or least close to the start, and that's decades of time. I do not have issues regarding ingrown hair, although occasionally it can happen as it does to anyone. My view is that a shave is to be comfortable and irritation free first, everything else is secondary. I do not appreciate have a full day's discomfort because I was trying to shave too close. As for Truefitt and Hill's take on the matter, that's up to you to if you want to follow it. The question I alway have for any advice received is "why problem will this advice solve for me?"

Personally, I cannot agree with the gentlman's example as hair is dead matter, it does not rebuilt itself in any fashion whatsoever and merely continues to grow out in the same manner after a cut. In addition, beard growth differs for each person and are not necessarily laid in an arrayed fashion. I know of many people that have swirls in their bear growth. What this mean is that hair won't growth back thicker, thinner or in a different direction, unless hair follicle itself is damaged. In that case, your technique is not only off but downright unhealthy to your beard.

I have 47 years of shaving against the grain,5-6 passes on entire face,never had a problem...I do not feel "clean" or satisfied until the face is really smooth all over....I will say a high quality razor,cream and prep does a hell of a lot to achieve this goal...

 

[California Cajun]

Hi guys,

So I had a quick trip to London this weekend, and of course called in to all of our friends in and around Jermyn Street. I got a shave and haircut at Geo. F. Trumper and also talked shop a bit at T&H. I definitely picked up on a theme that both places strongly advise against shaving against the grain.

The person who cut my hair used an analogy of roofing tiles to prove his point, basically stating that your facial hair is laid out in a similar fashion, with each hair laid slightly underneath the one above it. If you were to remove a roof from the bottom up, you would never be able to put it back together correctly, and a similar thing happens with facial hair in that it doesn't grow back the same way. This causes ingrown hairs which are not always visible, but can be responsible for "9 o'clock shadow" where you have a fresh, close shave but can still see whiskers. I certainly have this problem, and do not have a very thick beard.

He said it was much more important how a shave appeared than how it felt, and said that your skin should pretty much feel BBS with the grain, but you should feel slight stubble against the grain. I certainly can't argue that my skin looked fantastic after the shave, so I am going to try to change my approach at home, as well. For the next month, my regimen will be a three-pass shave consisting of with the grain, across the grain, and then with the grain again. Apparently as my skin recovers and adapts to this process my shaves should get closer and my skin should look better and better.

Thoughts?

Thanks,

Gary

That sounds like a bunch of baloney to me

I'm no expert, but I wouldn't be re-learning how to shave all over again in my 50s if it didn't offer a better shave. My objective is to simultaneously get a BBS shave and be kinder to my skin.

 

[Go West Young Man]

The advise given is exactly what we suggest to newbies here, for the record.

 

[DFrancis]

If you feel like giving it a try, go for it. For my own face i know that if I want BBS I need to add that ATG. I only really started shaving ATG a few months into DE shaving, before it was not comfortable and now I've had no problems at all.

 

[proxymoron]

Your body, your choice. It's not strictly necessary but it feels damn good.

 

[gsurko]

I don't feel as thought I've shaved unless I've gone ATG.

 

[Overcomer]

The shave shop I visit on occasion in the Atl, GA area suggests the same thing...don't go ATG, but with a slight catch. The suggestion was not to shave any closer than you needed to, and not so much that ATG was bad...just that it is not always necessary. More or less they say you don't really need BBS to go get groceries on Saturday morning. I think it goes without saying, that the more you remove the increased chance of nicks/irritation....

Trying to make sense of what gives me the best function...whether I go ATG or not, I normally get by with two passes on most days. I can always go more when I need to.

 

[professorchaos]

I don't feel as thought I've shaved unless I've gone ATG.

Precisely my thoughts.

 

[don.putnick]

They just might be covering their market share. If you shave ATG and have a bad experience, you might blame their product and buy a different brand.

 

[maxman]

I dumped the ATG and only go WTG on 2 passes.
I get very close shaves with no irritation.
I used to get irritation on my chin from the ATG pass.

 

[mkc1mjb]

I am able to shave ATG without irritation. If I leave out the ATG pass my face is much rougher and I have noticable growth by evening. So, for me the ATG pass is staying in my regimine.

 

[peacefrog33756]

Since I shave mostly everyday or at least every other day, a good razor and blades can give me a very close shave with just two WTG passes. I usually only add an ATG pass when I'm prepping for a special event, dinner, night out.

Blades last much longer too.

 

[Baartel Van StratenShaven]

It seems as if the barbers giving this gentleman advice are referring to straight razor, rather than, DE shaving. Thsi seems to have been missed in the thread and I think it should be pointed out that their is a great difference between an ATG pass with a straight razor and one with a double edge. Regarding the straight razor I think the advice is correct. For one thing: ATG is dangerous IMHO with a straight, unless done by a barber, and shaves too close on a 2nd pass resulting in ingrown hair nightmares, as the barber said. In regard to DE shaving the advice is wrong. You can do as many passes as you want with a DE razor since, IMHO, it can't cut as close as the straight anyway and will not disturb hair growth. In fact I got such a close shave with my Wester bros. my hair stopped growing for two weeks. I went to the Dr. and he put my face under the magnifying glass. He said I didn't have any follicles on my face anymore and that I'd need surgery to replace them. So that's what happens when you shave ATG with a Straight Razor.

 

[gswearengin]

Thanks for the replies, guys. Keep 'em coming. I have been an ATG shaver as well, so I know what you all mean by not feeling like you've got a good shave unless you go ATG.

However, the advice was for all shaving, and not just with a straight. He also said that the nasty painful red bumps we're all familiar with are not the only type of ingrown hairs, that the more common type is just "deeply impacted" at the root, which causes the hair to show up against the skin, even if you can't feel it. I certainly seem to have had that problem myself. I'm laying off the ATG shaves for a while, but I certainly am missing the feeling of a good close shave. I will say that if I could get the results of that Trumper's with-the-grain straight razor shave every day, I would be very pleased.

Also, I forgot to mention his analogy for using too much pressure: if you put a fat man on a roof, tiles will fall off and it will cause problems regardless of which direction you go.

Thanks,

GS

 

[Chimensch]

It seems as if the barbers giving this gentleman advice are referring to straight razor, rather than, DE shaving. Thsi seems to have been missed in the thread and I think it should be pointed out that their is a great difference between an ATG pass with a straight razor and one with a double edge. Regarding the straight razor I think the advice is correct. For one thing: ATG is dangerous IMHO with a straight, unless done by a barber, and shaves too close on a 2nd pass resulting in ingrown hair nightmares, as the barber said. In regard to DE shaving the advice is wrong. You can do as many passes as you want with a DE razor since, IMHO, it can't cut as close as the straight anyway and will not disturb hair growth. In fact I got such a close shave with my Wester bros. my hair stopped growing for two weeks. I went to the Dr. and he put my face under the magnifying glass. He said I didn't have any follicles on my face anymore and that I'd need surgery to replace them. So that's what happens when you shave ATG with a Straight Razor.

I've been shaving ATG with a straight for 30 years and I couldn't disagree more with what you're saying. The fact is that barbers are taught not to shave ATG precisely because they are usually shaving people they don't know and can't predict how the customer's face will react. Shaving your own face is an entirely different matter. If you're interested in seeing me shave ATG, I made a video.