Leaving Badger and Blade

[tonyespo]

Fellow members I hope you get to read this before that 22 year old kid, Joel pulls my message. I am leaving Badger and Blade and will post and follow the wetshaving community at SMF. After reading the bias review by Joel I don't want anything to do with a group that allows a 22 year old kid to run his mouth and hurt someone who is an honest business person. It has been brought to my attention that Joel didn't even buy any products from St. Charles Shaving. He borrowed them from Nick. I find it strange that someone would ask to borrow products so he could trash them in public. Joels is the only person on 3 wetshaving BBS that has voiced so much negative feedback about these products. When over 30 other wetshavers who have purchased the products gave them excellent reviews it is apparent that Joel has an agenda to hurt St. Charles Soaps sales. I have also learned that Joel is banned from SMF and was kicked out of a shaving group on MSN groups. My personal feeling is he has a problem with someone making it good without his input. Look at it this way. Joel is 22 years old and has been shaving let's say since he was 15. That will give him 7 whole year of shaving experience. WOW!!! I'm not surprised he doesn't know a good product when he see's it. I'm 58, starting shaving at 15, simple math it looks like I have been shaving almost twice as long as Joel is old. I believe I have a good bit more to offer from the experience factor.

So if you want to hang around and let some kid tell you what is good or bad that is your choice. I am leaving. If you would like to comment please do so at SMF.

Happy Holidays,
Tony Espo

 

[Nick]

Tony,

Joel didn't ask to borrow my St. Charles supplies. He came over to my house the day before I left for vacation. The same day my soap from Sue came. I knew I wouldn't get a chance to review it any time soon, so I said "Hey, why don't you take this stuff for a spin?"

I know you've personally invested a lot of time in developing these products with Sue. That's commendable. It doesn't quite seem right though that you're being critical of Joel for being critical of something else.

Just do me a favor and ask yourself one thing. If Joel's post was about one of the three T's, or pretty much any other producer that you didn't have a personal connection with, would you still be leaving in an uproar?

I'm also sorry that because Joel is younger than you, he's not allowed to have an opinion.

I can understand your frustration; however. I hope cooler heads can prevail with this, because you have made both a helpful and resourceful contribution to the forum

-Nick

 

[Rik]

Greetings Tony,

Let me begin by saying it’s informed members like you that make up the fabric of Badger & Blade. It would be a considerable loss to the B&B family if you left.

As a business owner, I realize that you and Sue have a great deal invested emotionally in these products. I also realize that as business owners, we are forced to wear a thick skin to keep from getting emotionally drained. But it is this emotional investment that feeds the passion to continually improve ones product or service, enabling great things to happen.

These past couple of weeks has clearly been an emotional roller coaster for you guys as you introduced a new product line into a very difficult market. I would like to commend you both for taking on this venture.

It must have been difficult to read complaints about generally minor issues which over shadowed the positive posts and feedback on your product. I know from corresponding with Sue before Joel’s review that the minor complaints were disheartening. It sounds like Joel’s review was the breaking point.

As for Joel’s review, I have a few thoughts. Please keep in mind that I do not know Joel personally, but am responding based on observations of his posts.

First, I don’t believe it should be an issue if he purchased a product or borrowed it. It would be economically infeasible to purchase every product for review. The end result would be very few reviews.

Second, Joel always has and probably always will speak his mind without holding any punches. There isn’t any second guessing as to how he feels about a product – its right there in the open for all to see. Does this create controversy? Yes. Would I rather he sugar coat his reviews? No. Do we have to agree with his opinion? No. The nice thing with the forum format, is fellow members are able to post their opinions in addition to the initial review.

Third, its unfortunate Joel chose to review three different product classifications within the same review. The moderators have agreed to move the individual product reviews into the proper forums. This will allow the member to focus their input on that individual product. This will also benefit Sue as she can address the recommendations/suggestions individually rather than as a whole.

Fourth, it seems evident that the cologne Joel reviewed was defective. In retrospect it would have been judicious to contact Sue and verify the product he was reviewing was in fact a true representation. This is something we can all learn from as we give our individual reviews.

Fifth and final, I don’t feel Joel’s age has any bearing on his ability to provide us with well written, detailed reviews. I know 18 year old programmers that can do circles around their older counterparts. Personally Tony, I feel your attacks on his age were unwarranted.

All that being said, I think Sue has admirably stepped up to the plate and taken the situation head on. She is open to trying new ideas to make her product even better – an absolute must in business. Everyone has very different opinions on all aspects of wet shaving. Sue and Tony you must have realized that there would be some strong opinions. You are competing with companies that have significant financial resources and well established R&D departments. I feel that there is an opportunity for something very positive to come from all of this.

Finally, Tony it would be very unfortunate to loose you as a member. Clearly you have strong convictions as to what you feel are quality products in this obsession of ours. It is individuals like you that make B&B what it’s become. I sincerely hope that you and Sue would view this as a bump in the road of business and will continue to actively participate amongst us.

Best Wishes,
The B&B Moderators

 

[guenron]

Greetings Tony,
I am having difficulty following your rant. It seems that you say Joel is biased and as he is 22, is not qualified to call it like he sees it. First let me say I am disappointed in your inability to separate personal animus and opinion. After reading Joel's review, I really doubt that there is any personal bias on Joel's part other than he did not like some of the St. Charles products after trying them. Perhaps he had a bias against nonfunctional packaging, or inappropriate labeling, or what he and others apparently considered a wretched scent? Joel is certainly not to be excoriated for having an opinion differing from yours? It looks like you are grasping for straws to make a case that isn't there.
Your personal involvement in the development of some of these products aside, perhaps you should reconsider your opinion. Traveling around the sun 58 times doesn't make it any more valuable or correct or right than 48 or 38 or in this case 22 times. It has just been there longer.
I wish you well at SMF. I know for a fact that there are several expert shavers there where their opinions matter more than fact and they too will not tolerate a difference of opinion or debate. As long as you can agree with them, you will have a good time. Good luck and good shaving.

 

[HlSheppard]

Let some kid tell me what's good or bad??

That's about as ludicrous as letting some 58 year old tell me I can't think for myself...

You'll be missed.

 

[Cliff]

Well said Rik. I think many have seen my review of Sue's Almond soap posted elsewhere, under SOAP's; I liked her soap. You take the good with the not so good - I don't think Sue took it that badly.

 

[joel]

Well I didn't see this coming.... (sarcasm). I attempted to put up that "Disclaimer" so as to qwell something like this - but alas here we are....

I am terribly sorry my experiences were different than yours, however - I must say, I feel I did do you, and Sue a favor, and were in fact BIASED towards you two by adding that disclaimer. I am not sure how long you have been on shavng communities, but personally it will be three years next month for me. In that time, I have bashed a product from nearly EVERY, let me repeat, EVERY retailer. Ray's shaving soaps, I have continually "bashed" - and let me mention, I have tried his soaps on THREE seperate occasions, even after having "bashed" them, I still purchased, and tried his soaps again when they were "reformulated" as I will give ANY firm/company many chances. Over at SMF at one point, I reviewed Em's Shaving Soap, which I disliked immensly, and posted extensive pictures of my irritated face. I tried cakes in other scents, and unscented, found it was a skin reaction, and PROMPTLY posted a NEW review, stating my previous findings were incorrect due to a skin reaction with a particular oil. Charles at QED - I have posted the "Vitaman" Balm from Australia he was once a big fan of was "Complete and utter crap." Come to find, the formula had been changed on him - and he discontinued carrying the "new" formula.

Basically, you name nearly ANY retailer or purveyor of gentlemans products, and chances are, there has been SOMETHING I was not too keen on. That is just how the cookie crumbles when you have tried literally HUNDREDS of outstanding products, some of which have been in service and improved upon for over 100 years. Heck, I tried a little cake of soap just recently that was TERRIBLE from that new gentlemans online store that will have a negative review posted on it as well. One thing that has to be thumped over and over on these forums, is that these are forums for USERS of products, and gentlemen who wish to come together and chit chat about shaving, etc. This is not a place for retailers to "hawk" their products, and argue/stamp off when someone does not feel the same way about them as you desire. Tony - if you did not love the stuff, then you wouldn't put your name on it, you wouldn't promote it, and you would not be so emotional right now. You and many others WILL LIKE ST. CHARLES products. Hell - I enjoy the soap and plan on buying some, but to think that EVERYONE will enjoy EVERY product is simply not reasonable. I simply cannot see where you base your opinion that the review is "biased" because it does not favor St. Charles with overwhelming approval.

I am sad to see you go - and I suggest you pm, or email me and maybe we can discuss this over the telephone. One thing I would recommend for certain however, is that you do "stay" simply as a leison for "St. Charles" as if questions and such are asked about the products, and individuals are told one of the purveyors of the firm stormed out in disgust, it will not weight well for your product.

I truly wish you and Sue the best, and attempted to "help" you two by padding my review with a disclaimer of it being just "MY" opinion, but I assure you, I am not the only person who felt the way I did about those products, and I have received many pm's and emails thanking me for the honest review, and that they felt similar towards the cologne, and somewhat towards the a/s.

Have an outstanding thanksgiving!

 

[roughrider]

I read Joel's review as his review. He gave a disclaimer stating that these were just his opinions. I never took it as a personal attack on Sue and her products. Most everything can be corrrected with future revisions and reformulations. I looked at it more as advice. There were many people who disliked the packaging. Sue took the advice and is revising her future packaging.

 

[Scotto]

Tony, I am not sure I understand your reaction after re-reading Joel's review. Like it or not, products are going to get different reactions from different people. The purpose of these forums is for people to express their opinions, and we have to respect all of them, even if they don't agree with our own. I think the age-bashing was completely uncalled for, and I think that with some introspection you will see that perhaps your reaction was a little strong. Hopefully you choose to stick around. If not, have a good one.

 

[uofi1963]

Oh boy, I shouldn't get into this, but here goes.

Let's cool down on over-reactions. That younger Joel just stated his opinion, and only that. And, IMHO as a retired educator, it was extremely well written.

When I'm looking for a new product, I weigh all of the possible researched information, and then I make my own decision. I certainly intend to try Sue's products, but I presently have on hand enough shaving cream and soap for several lifetimes.

Let's get this into perspective, Tony. We all need you here.

an older Joel