Learning coti and jnat

[kayvee]

As a learner starting on Coti’s and JNATs I’m thinking to get to the natural after going to 4K on a synthetic. Is this ok to do or should I start from the ground up on the natural?

I know some will say that no one knows my stones and I just need to try it out. I’m looking for a broad strokes, what has worked for others so I may try something similar.

For context, I have successfully honed hollow grinds using synthetics up to 8k and finish on either slate or arks.

Thanks

 

[captaincaed]

As someone who’s also learning how to use naturals, I like a maxed out 8k edge before going to any natural, and then using the natural with only water and light pressure and seeing how it performs. (after proper bevel set, maxing out intermediate stones, etc).

While I’m still learning how to do things, it’s nice to know “is this thing taking the edge forward or backward from the best edge I can currently make on an 8k.” Once I start with that in mind, I have a better sense of what I’m shooting for next time.

Cotis and Jnats can take an edge from a lower grit synthetic finish to a shaving finish, but sometimes it’s hard for me to tell where the upper limit of a stone ought to be unless I start using it at a known, solid 8k edge.

My 2c from someone in the middle of the process.

 

[Sinnbad11]

I don't straight razor shave as often as I once did, but previously it was the only type of razor I used.

I got use to walking jnat and coti edges up from a 1.5k shapton with slow dilution. It should be possible with most razor quality examples of either stone.

If I wanted to experience the edge for the first time without all the faff of a slow dilution, I'd get the highest quality synthetic edge I could manage and finish the razor on a light slurry on a jnat, or on clear water on a coti. They should help you get the idea of what a good edge from the stone can be without all the fuss.

 

[Herrenberg]

As a learner starting on Coti’s and JNATs I’m thinking to get to the natural after going to 4K on a synthetic. Is this ok to do or should I start from the ground up on the natural?

I know some will say that no one knows my stones and I just need to try it out. I’m looking for a broad strokes, what has worked for others so I may try something similar.

For context, I have successfully honed hollow grinds using synthetics up to 8k and finish on either slate or arks.

Thanks

I'm in favor of your approach. Naturals do exist for the below-4K range, but I can't see any reason to use them on razors other than for the heck of it, or for fun, or to show it can be done. Synthetics are in every way superior in that range IMO.

I often go to 6K or 8K or 10K before crossing over to naturals, mostly because I want to make sure the geometry is absolutely shipshape, but 4K seems just fine to me, assuming you have a natural that can reasonably pick things up from that point.

 

[Gamma]

Try stuff.
If it works, then it works.
If it doesnt work, try different stuff.
There sre no rules.
If you like the results, it’s ok and it doesn’t matter what somone or anyone thinks about it.
Hone your way so your edges feel good to you.

 

[Steve56]

Going from a 4k synth to a coti will most likely work, and will work with most JNats. It’s a grit ’step’ that I did for years, but off a 5k Shapton Pro.

Some natural stones don’t have much grit, but most cotis and JNats do - therefore my ‘hedge’ words of ‘likely’ and ‘most’, since these stones are naturals. I do have some slow JNats and cotis. There is a lot of honing ‘philosophy’ involved, but all roads lead to Rome if well executed.

One method of using naturals is to maintain the bevels perfectly flat on synths until the final natural finisher.

Another is to use an all natural progression, Arks, Mikawa nagura etc.

Either method will get you there.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

If you have an 8k, make the jump from a pristine, near mirror bevel for a no brainer natural finisher.

Any good Jnat will easily finish from a 1k bevel set with just diamond slurry. Coticules a bit different as said.
A 1k to Jnat jump will tell you a lot about your Jnat’s potential and teach you a lot about slurry use and refinement. Circles will cut 1k stria quickly with a Jnat and slurry.

I routinely do a 1k bevel set, to 8k jump and finish on a Jnat, cake.

 

[Steve56]

If you have an 8k, make the jump from a pristine, near mirror bevel for a no brainer natural finisher.

Yep, yep, this is good advice.

 

[Gamma]

Fwiw, the only one to decide if what you are doing is 'ok' or not, is you.

Whatever you're doing - if you like the results, keep doing it. If not, stop doing it.
If it works, it's ok.

Some people use Jnats as a finisher only, honing on synths up to 12k or higher.
Others jump from synths to Jnats at 8k, or 5k.
Still others jump from the bevel setter.
Some don't use syhns at all and just hone on Jnats.
Some do all of the above whenever they feel like it.

 

[Wid]

Try it all. I go from 1K to coti, 3K to coti and 8k to coti. It all works when you figure out the stones. Honestly I doubt you could tell a difference.

Not much of a Jnat user so I go as high as I can then do a dilution down to water only.

 

[kayvee]

go from 1K to coti, 3K to coti and 8k to coti. It all works when you figure out the stones

Do you start on the JNAT differently based on what your jumping point is? Maybe use a different nagura?

Similarly on the coti, how do you account for the jump off point? Is that based on the slurry thickness?

I understand the actual details wil be specific to the stones I have. I’m just looking for the factors to look out for.

 

[Wid]

Do you start on the JNAT differently based on what your jumping point is? Maybe use a different nagura?

Similarly on the coti, how do you account for the jump off point? Is that based on the slurry thickness?

I understand the actual details wil be specific to the stones I have. I’m just looking for the factors to look out for.

For the Jnat, I simply don’t understand them very well. I haven’t taken the time to learn them.

With the coti and different jumping off points it depends on the stone but slurry consistency is a huge part.

I normally go from 1K to coti. Don’t really do a lot different off the 3K. If using the 8 K I can go from either a light slurry or go to the coticule as a finisher. I do have a couple coti’s that need me to max an edge out either with another coti or a higher synthetic edge.

 

[kayvee]

For cotis does the slurry stone (vein) matter as well?

 

[lightfoot]

Just had a good shave off the following setup:

Shapton Pro 2K to 5K

Kakiyama Asagi (midrange stone, not to be confused with Nakayama…) w/
medium-light diamond slurry then medium-light tomo slurry until I achieved a frosty mirror polish (more hazy than mirror…)

Very hard Ozuku koppa w/tomo slurry working the frosty finish from the midrange stone all the way to a near-mirror polish on light to misty slurry.

I can’t say that this is guaranteed be a successful process for you but it does present some kind of loose guideline.

 

[Wid]

For cotis does the slurry stone matter as well?

Some say they do, some say they don’t. I haven’t found a huge difference.

 

[Gamma]

Names of veins are largely irrelevant. What matters most is the stone's actual 'personality' and how well the user can use the stone to its full advantage.

You can have two stones from the same vein, or believed to be from the same vein, and they can be wildly different. That goes for Cotis and Jnats.
By all means, try different slurry stones if you want to. But don't sweat names.

The best thing to do is to just hone, a lot. Try things out. See what works for you. See what doesn't work. What works for person A might not work for person B. And vice versa. There are no magic formulas, only trial and error.

The more you hone the more you will learn to feel what is going on and the better you can judge what to do, with what, and when.

 

[JPO]

For cotis does the slurry stone (vein) matter as well?

In my opinion it is probably not something to get too deep into as you start.
I will use different slurry stones depending on how much work I need to do.
I baught my first coticule from Ardennes. It come with one coarse and really fast LPB slurry stone, and one smoother La Dressante slurry stone. They both fit the typical description of what you can get from those specific veins. I like to think this selection was not random.
I usually just pick one fine slurry stone and do one extra dilution if I need to.
I am not sure how much the vein matters, but all my slurry stones have had the typical traits of the vein they came from.
If you get/got the stone from a good vendor, the slurry stone should be a good match with your base stone.

I have not had enough time with these stones to form any opinion on if it really matters that much.
I like to think it does at some level.

My LPB slurry feels really gritty, while my La Dressante and La Veinnette slurry stones feels really smooth.

So, if I was just going to buy one slurry stone I would target one of the more sought after veins, or ask the vendor to pick a good one.

There is a vide range in garnet size and density, from the finest to the coarsest. That makes a difference, especially if you end up at the coarse end of the range in my opinion.
The name of the vein can give you a clue, but it's not a guarantee.

If you ask for a La Veinnette or La Dressante slurry stone from Ardennes you are probably not going to be disappointed.
If I was buying my first coticule I would just get a few extra slurry stones to play with.

In my opinion, these La Dressante slurry stones create a really smooth slurry. That is important to me, but it might not be to someone else. It is the result that matters.

 

[Frank Shaves]

You can go from 1k to a sharp, comfortable edge using a Coticule. Google "the dilucot method a clear shot at an excellent edge".

Learning Dilucot takes practice and you will need a Coticule that is good for finishing razors.

Alternatively, you can go 1k, 4k, 8k synthetic (with a mirror finish) and then to the Coticule using water or oil.

Ardennes-Coticule has had La Veinette stones that are good for finishing razors. I have had good experience buying these stones by emailing Rob at [email protected], telling him that you are looking for a stone for finishing razors.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

“Do you start on the JNAT differently based on what your jumping point is? Maybe use a different nagura?”

No, from a pristine 8 or 10k bevel, same nagura just less slurry and fewer laps needed. I usually do Tsushima, to lay down a kasumi finish, Tenjo and Tomo nagura, but often jump to Tenjo and finish on Tomo.

A lot depends on the base stone and the razor.

Coticules are more stone and technique dependent. I get the new honer alure of creamy coticule slurry and the assortment of stone layers and attractive stones, but it really is a deep rabbit hole unlike any other natural stone.

Especially when compared to a Thüringan, just make some slurry and finish, the Honda Accord of natural stones, they just work.

 

[JPO]

Ardennes-Coticule has had La Veinette stones that are good for finishing razors. I have had good experience buying these stones by emailing Rob at [email protected], telling him that you are looking for a stone for finishing razors

I have two of these newly mined La Veinnette stones. They are both easy to use, and works well with razors.
The only difference with my stones was the hardness.
I like coticules regardless of vein. However, these stones are really good in my opinion. Sample size two

A good jnat can also be nice to use after a coticule. So, even if the coticule is not maxed out, the jnat should be able to save the day, or work as midrange and finished after 4k.