Knife honing free hand. Why bother?

[psfred]

I suspect free-hand on stones will always work better for me for the simple reason I don't have two of any knife and don't have to sharpen all that much. The stones work fine for everything, including a lot of woodworking tools -- now that I have them all flat and have learned what I'm doing, all those hand tools work great.

Anyway, if you are running production or semi-production and sharpening the same shape of knife again and again, any power system with jigs will reduce the time dramatically. Gillette automated razor blade honing in the 1920's for this reason -- vastly more uniform and far less hand labor, which is very expensive.

As far as actual edge results, it aways depends on the tools and the operator. I don't see a dramatic advantage to paper wheels, etc over high skilled use of stones, but if you can't hold a bevel angle steady the paper wheel and a jig will give you much better edges.

 

[buca3152]

You have never used one. Otherwise your opinion would be different. The process is 220 grit sic embedded wheel to white compound embedded slotted wheel. Works with any steel. It's about a one minute process done correctly. 2 minutes if the knife has been abused.

 

[SliceOfLife]

High speed white compound edges aren't comparable to a looooooot of what I prefer to use. I have had services put that edge on carving and filet knives. I've seen guys pull off decent edges on finer rouge (green) but it always involved tuning down wheel rpm to a small fraction of what you would reshape on. Any fine edge at high rpm would get deflected too much to take the level of refinement stones get you. It's a skill set different from stone honing, not at all a simple matter of upping grit on the wheel.

 

[buca3152]

The video put on a 40 Bess edge. That's pretty incredible for such a fast process. Don't you think? Feather de blade is around 32 Bess for reference.

 

[psfred]

Well, I only use a 300 grit stone to repair chips, I'd not start there for routine sharpening. For me that's a minute or less on a 1200 grit Bester, 30 sec or so on a King 6000 (my favorite for cooking knives) and a few seconds stropping on wood charged with 0.5 micron chromium oxide. Pretty much the same for woodworking tools except I usually use a 3000 grit stone between the 1200 and the 6000. Knives need a little "bite" for meat and things with tough skins, so I don't usually highly polish the edge.

Unless I have an accident or someone else abuses my knives, they never get dull enough to need more than a quick bevel restoration at 1200 grit. Chisels being used to hog material or prep beekeeping frames (where contact with nails can occur) may need a 300 grit stone, but not usually. Again, I don't wait to sharpen them until they are blunt.

And, a paper wheel of that diameter will grind a distinctly concave bevel, which will FEEL sharper without being any finer -- thinner cuts better so long as the edge doesn't fail. The main reason I like my Japanese knives is that they are thin behind the edge for some distance, makes them cut veggies much more easily that thick German or French style knives.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Sharpness tester is gonna be almost purely edge angle dependent, and I'll tell you right now if you think he's getting a 15 degree edge angle per side in that video, I've got a bridge to sell you. He's putting a 10 degree on there at most. Even from the angle he filmed at (which is horrible), you can see he's MISSING the highest point on the wheel, which is clearly what the calcs are based on, by as much as 3-5 degrees (of arc) . His resulting angle is off by a country mile. So yeah 40ish is about where I'd expect it to test with a decent level of polish. Should be right in line with the Feathers. As much as folks love to think that they are, feathers just aren't that sharp.

 

[JohnEzra]

I totally disagree. Paper wheel can get a wicked edge very quickly.

This is a hill I’m 100% willing to die on. If you really think that thing delivers better edges than free-handing on stones, I think that says more about a lack of practice/skill on the stones, and less about the quality of an edge from a paper wheel.

As someone who has been sharpening knives much longer than razors, for myself and people who use them daily for work in some of the best kitchens in the world, I guarantee there is no machine or setup that will deliver an edge that preforms it’s intended task as well as one properly free handed on stones.

On stones I can give a toothy edge on any usuba perfect for katsuramuki, or a highly polished edge that will push cut toilet paper/paper towel, if that’s what you’re into(an edge that polished would suck for food prep).

As stated above Bess sharpness ratings really only test edge geometry, and frankly are quite useless for determining if the performance of the knife will be any good.

Making a comment like “you have never used one, or your opinion would be different” is making quite a big assumption, and also quite pointless. For one , you have no idea what edges I, or anyone else have used/tested (I personally have used a knife at one point or another that was finished using just about every method you can think of, from paper wheels, to belt grinders, to sharpening systems and honing rods), and for two, one could just as easily, and meaninglessly say to you, “you have never used a truly good edge off a stone, or your opinion would be different.”

I’ll reiterate what I stated earlier, machines absolutely get the job done, but come nowhere near what can be done by hand on stones.

Maybe there is a reason every respected kitchen knife maker from Shiraki to Hinoura to Ikeda to Hide all sharpen and perform honebadzuki on stones not machines, even though they are doing it for a profession, and efficiency is always something they are looking to improve.

 

[buca3152]

Personally I use 325 dmt for my kitchen knives. Nice toothy edge. One chopper gets the 1200 treatment. I prefer a toothy edge. And according to many a toothy edge lasts longer and works better for slicing. Push cutting is where the more refined edge will be at it's advantage. I don't see a reason for me anyway to refine any edge more than that. I have many razor stones synths and nats that I could use. I.dont see a reason to. But then again I'm not slicing sushi.

 

[JohnEzra]

Personally I use 325 dmt for my kitchen knives. Nice toothy edge. One chopper gets the 1200 treatment. I prefer a toothy edge. And according to many a toothy edge lasts longer and works better for slicing. Push cutting is where the more refined edge will be at it's advantage. I don't see a reason for me anyway to refine any edge more than that. I have many razor stones synths and nats that I could use. I.dont see a reason to. But then again I'm not slicing sushi.

First and foremost, whatever floats your boat, or whatever slices your veggies and makes you happy is what you should do.

That being said, just to clarify and some info for other/future readers, in the kitchen knife world when we talk about a toothy edge perfect for biting into a tomato or the slippery skin of an onion, we are typically referencing something finished in the 2K to 4K range, and many would even consider something finished on a 6K to be relatively toothy; finishing on a diamond 325 is not what people mean whet they say a toothy edge is better for slicing, frankly that would be considered a hacksaw not fit for use in most kitchens. The amount of damage a 325 finish would do to the cell structure of the item being cut would certainly ruin the presentation, and likely effect the flavor/mouth feel of the item being cut.

A blown up example would be slicing an orange, the more little juice sacks (yes that's actually the term for them) you disturb while cutting, the less juicy the orange will seem when eaten. This same thing happens at a much smaller level when cutting a tomato, cucumber, fish, or really anything else, and the texture of the edge has a surprisingly large effect on this.

 

[SliceOfLife]

To be fair a DMT 325 edge can be pretty insane. I've shaved off it because other people have pointed out to me that it does leave a shaveable edge. It shaves in the ballpark of a Norton 8K.

Having said that, that may be specific for razors. I've never actually tried to leave a 325 edge on a knife. I by default go to the 1.2 k when I'm using dmts... Generally on rentals at jobs I didn't feel like bringing my stones in for... as dmts are almost ubiquitous at all the places I'd worked in the past 10 years. They have almost completely displaced the old tristones that we used to have everywhere.

I prefer natural stones on my home knives and really only go down to dmts when I need to reprofile something.


That said I've seen far far far too many short timers whip out a bread knife to slice tomatoes and I die a little inside every time.

 

[buca3152]

First and foremost, whatever floats your boat, or whatever slices your veggies and makes you happy is what you should do.

That being said, just to clarify and some info for other/future readers, in the kitchen knife world when we talk about a toothy edge perfect for biting into a tomato or the slippery skin of an onion, we are typically referencing something finished in the 2K to 4K range, and many would even consider something finished on a 6K to be relatively toothy; finishing on a diamond 325 is not what people mean whet they say a toothy edge is better for slicing, frankly that would be considered a hacksaw not fit for use in most kitchens. The amount of damage a 325 finish would do to the cell structure of the item being cut would certainly ruin the presentation, and likely effect the flavor/mouth feel of the item being cut.

A blown up example would be slicing an orange, the more little juice sacks (yes that's actually the term for them) you disturb while cutting, the less juicy the orange will seem when eaten. This same thing happens at a much smaller level when cutting a tomato, cucumber, fish, or really anything else, and the texture of the edge has a surprisingly large effect on this.

I can cut arm hair quite easily with a 325 dmt edge. To say that it cuts hair but is messy with my veggies? Lol. And.i have progressed many knives. The chopper at 1200 is perfect. And slicing etc the 325. I have loads of high grit.stones and.naturals that I don't see a reason to use.

 

[JohnEzra]

I can cut arm hair quite easily with a 325 dmt edge. To say that it cuts hair but is messy with my veggies? Lol. And.i have progressed many knives. The chopper at 1200 is perfect. And slicing etc the 325. I have loads of high grit.stones and.naturals that I don't see a reason to use.

Shaving arm hair and cutting food are two completely different things, and frankly making an edge shave arm hair isn't too difficult. I'm pretty sure I could sharpen something on a brick that would shave arm hair at skin level.

So yes, your edge may shave arm hair but I'd put money on the fact that it does a number to any delicate foods you're cutting. Judging a kitchen knife by its ability to cut arm hair is like judging the quality of a fish by its ability to climb a tree; it couldn't be more irrelevant.

If you're happy with your 325 edge, more power to you, but to say it is perfect edge for slicing and use it as a benchmark for other sharpening methods is a stretch, and misleading to anyone else reading this. You can keep telling yourself that your finishing methods produce the best edges for what you're doing but you're selling yourself short, and producing an unfair comparison.

You're talking to me like I don't know what an edge off a diamond plate is like. For what its worth, I have personally sharpened my own knives on diamond plates, just to see what the resulting edge was like and on top of that I typically test knives that are sent to me for sharpening or reprofiling both before and after the job to get a feel for what they are used to, and how far the knife has improved. In other words I've used plenty of knives sharpened on diamond plates, including the 325 and 1200, and I know exactly what the edge you're using feels like and how it performs. While the 1200 edge is passable for getting the job done its definitely not ideal for delicate stuff, and the 325 edge really is best suited for utility knives.

 

[FSword]

Although I didn't read the whole thread my understanding is that honing on stone by hand is superior to machine honing, even if in some cases the difference is very subtle.

Let me just understand something, does this apply for knife honing only or for straight razors as well? In other words, would it be possible to hone a straight razor using e.g. WorkSharp Ken Onion and have a decent result? Yes, it will not be as good as traditional stone honing but will it be good enough to have a smooth shave? Another option would be to start on Ken Onion and finish on a high grit stone.

Sorry if this has been answered before, as I mentioned I started reading the thread recently but didn't have time to read it all. As you might have understood I have no experience in honing and actually it's one of the things keeping me from starting with straight razors (although I have experience with Feather AS folding razors). I know, things are not so difficult as they seem, yet I don't feel like going through the learning curve of stone honing.

Machine honing - if it is a valid alternative - would somehow be a more comfortable option, as long as it produces an acceptable result. Furthermore, it's easier to supplement it with a high grit stone just to finish off, rather than having to go through all the range of stones. I know this is rarely required if the straight razor is shave ready - probably the high grit stone will be all that is required for a long time - yet it is quite possible that, at some point, I'll have to set a bevel or do some honing in lower grit stones.

 

[bluesman 7]

@FSword, Sharpening machines fall into two groups, powered and unpowered, but what they mostly have in common and the main thing that makes them effective for knife sharpening is that they mostly have a mechanism that holds a steady angle.

A straight razor does not benefit from these mechanisms because it already has a built in guide by the nature of the spine. Any mechanism that didn't hold the exact same angle as would be held by the spine would be a step in the wrong direction.

 

[FSword]

Ok but does it mean that using a machine the correct angle is not maintained? Sure, the machine is not required to set the angle since we have the spine but that's not why we could use it. Wouldn't it be possible to keep the angle according to the spine and take advantage of the machine itself?

 

[SliceOfLife]

As I mentioned earlier, at high levels of refinement the force involved in powered honing like wheels deflects the edge too much. It doesn't matter how soft the substrate (wheel) is. Felt, Paper, whatever. Centrifugal force creates a surface that does not compress. This means the force the abrasives apply is many, many, MANY times the force applied by hand honing. This deflects the edge. You'd have to run crazy low RPMs... low enough that no grinder motor I've seen could maintain them to prevent this on a razor. Knives you can probably get away with it on a very very low RPM wheel... but I don't feel it's worth the trouble. That's not to say you can't get a very sharp knife edge on a wheel, but it's not going to be a straight edge. You're going to round the bevel off. The wheels can't help but do that because.... they deflect the edge... a lot. On most knives I want a straight bevel.

 

[buca3152]

Although I didn't read the whole thread my understanding is that honing on stone by hand is superior to machine honing, even if in some cases the difference is very subtle.

Let me just understand something, does this apply for knife honing only or for straight razors as well? In other words, would it be possible to hone a straight razor using e.g. WorkSharp Ken Onion and have a decent result? Yes, it will not be as good as traditional stone honing but will it be good enough to have a smooth shave? Another option would be to start on Ken Onion and finish on a high grit stone.

Sorry if this has been answered before, as I mentioned I started reading the thread recently but didn't have time to read it all. As you might have understood I have no experience in honing and actually it's one of the things keeping me from starting with straight razors (although I have experience with Feather AS folding razors). I know, things are not so difficult as they seem, yet I don't feel like going through the learning curve of stone honing.

Machine honing - if it is a valid alternative - would somehow be a more comfortable option, as long as it produces an acceptable result. Furthermore, it's easier to supplement it with a high grit stone just to finish off, rather than having to go through all the range of stones. I know this is rarely required if the straight razor is shave ready - probably the high grit stone will be all that is required for a long time - yet it is quite possible that, at some point, I'll have to set a bevel or do some honing in lower grit stones.

I believe that you definitely can. But I don't see a reason to. I did a gold dollar are a paper wheel few years ago for the heck of it. It shaved. But not to the level that I can get on stones on a bench. BUT I only tried it one time. Gold dollars and zy razors are sharpened the same.way imo. Because my razor and theirs that are already sharpened, when you put them back on a flat stone you end up short of the edge. As my razor after I inked the bevel ended up half a bevel away from reaching the edge of the edge.

 

[eKretz]

The reason you don't want to use a powered method for finishing without a lot of care is that it raises a burr instantly. There are ways around that but it's easier to just use a bench hone/stone. For a given grit size and type, the size of burr or wire that's produced is directly proportional to the amount of abrasive that acts on the edge. For a bench stone you can basically barely have any abrasive traveling over the edge if you want to. With a powered belt or paper wheel, there's a LOT of abrasive going over the edge very quickly. That's the equivalent of making something like 20 strokes on one side of a blade with a bench hone. That's a fast path to burr/wire. You can get around this by using super fine abrasive and by slowing the belt or wheel way down. Personally, I just use the belt to shape, thin and set bevels. For the finishing touch I still prefer freehand.

 

[bluesman 7]

That's the equivalent of making something like 20 edge trailing strokes on one side of a blade with a bench hone.

Fixed that for you.

 

[ShaverNoob]

I have some DMT small diamond sharpeners. And a cheap strop with yellow compound. Why, because good sharpening machines are expensive. And it's a good skill to have. I sharpen kitchen knives, a couple of scandi grind bushcraft knives, and just the strop for my wood carving knives....which I don't use much, just gave it a try. One advantage of sharpening by hand is you can slightly convex a scandi grind and make it a much tougher edge.