It's like the grass fed, cold pressed baby oil.
I got famous! LOL
- Thread starter sbogill
- Start date
Steve56
Ask me about shaving naked!
Check out their video, it’s ‘familiar’, rofl.
What day is it again?
Steve56
Ask me about shaving naked!
Thursday
I once sent a kid to find me a left-handed hammer.
He learned a valuable lesson that day.
He learned a valuable lesson that day.
Hilarious
Steve56
Ask me about shaving naked!
Expect a video soon …..
"Never trust @Darth Scandalous"
I think 15 or 20 years ago, there was something called "Method" shaving... where you bought some fancy soap cube... soaked it in the sink for 15 minutes, did some other stuff, etc, etc, etc.
If I remember right, it was a little before my time and was kind of tapering off when I started wetshaving....
But this does ring some bells of "guy comes up with new way of doing things... sells what you need to do it... starts claiming it does something incredible and if you don't get it you're wrong" sort of pattern you guys describe here.
Relative to the time we humans have been roaming around it's probably a new "thing".
This was written around 175 years ago.
It seems to indicates that this method would be considered a more advanced way of honing a razor back then.
It also indicates the a pasted strop was used, which creates a little convexity behind the apex.
Translation by a German razor enthusiast.
His take on the matter was just "I think these Solingen blades are thin enough" I think he had a point
Polytechnische Mittheilungen, Volum 3, Page 28 and 29
G) Straight Razors
The blade of the aforementioned has a uniqueness, which sets it apart from all other types of knives: the full hollow ground, from spine to cutting edge and a thickness of material close to the cutting edge close to nonexistent when compared to the much thicker spine. These characteristics have their good reasons. As it is generally known, to prepare a straight razor for use, after it has been as close as possible completed on the the rotating sharpening stone/wheel, it has to be honed on a flat hand stone; this means it has to be laid flat on the (with oil coated) stone in the specific manner of letting the spine and bevel touch the stone simultaneously, and under very mild pressure, against the cutting edge, - to avoid burr formation - guide the razor on both sides as long as it is necessary. Doing this forms 2 thin (usually 0.2 to max 0.6mm broad) bevels, when those two become one the cutting angle of the razor is set. The hollow nature of the sides, even though it does not contribute to the cutting angle of the razor, is of great importance for this task: it causes the knife to be in contact with the stone on only two places, so it is very easy to be held in this position, some could say it almost holds itself in position, because there are no other points of contact to be found. The most useful result of this is the fact, that the aforementioned bevels will be even and smooth; where as in the sharpening process of a razor with non hollow ground sides and weaker/skinnier spine, an artificial inclination against the stones surface has to be introduced, which is not as reliable, and with the resulting unstableness on the one hand side comes an uncertain cutting angle or on the other hand side, even worse, a slight convex in the bevels, which greatly depletes the needed fineness of the cutting edge.
If it was the goal to create a razor with an even (non hollow) side and a spine, so thick, that it would touch the stone while honing in the same manner as mentioned above, the blade would be needed to be honed evenly across the whole side, which would not only make the business of sharpening razors immensely difficult and take longer but also the guidance of the razor by hand, as the worker, unbeknownst, could lift the spine or the bevel of the razor a tiny bit off the stone.
The hollowness has another use case: it is the reason, why the bevel inwards has an even thickness across a long distance which lets the razor keep a smooth edge with a small bevel/cutting edge, which makes the process of honing easier and faster.
The stone used for honing has to be hard, with very dense structure and even grit, because without these characteristics there is no way a smooth cutting edge can be produced. Some use 2 or 3 stones with gradual fineness in grit; it can be said, without a doubt/certainly that by only using one single very fine stone - maybe with a bit/significant more time needed - the goal of a smooth edge can be reached, this might even be better for the bevel/cutting edge, as the harsh grit marks from the lower grit stones do not need to be polished out. Others go even one step further and change the surface of the stones used in their gradual sharpening stone set. A well-versed man in this matter (honing razors) told me of this for him very advantageous practice: The first, sharpest/best biting/roughest stone (which can be an oil or water stone) shall be made to a convex surface. The second stone in the arsenal, which is a levantinian oilstone that word does not really exist anymore/is a negatively connoted word.. so it should better be called stone from the orient or an arabic one from syria/lebanon/jordan etc. shall be prepared in the same way, even though with less convexness; only the third (last) stone shall be flat, and for this one a fine hard clay slate stone (blue sharpening stone) shall be chosen, here the honing shall always be done with water only. This method is rational; with the convexness of the first two stones the steel near the bevel will be thinned down successively, which only leads to a superbly thin bevel with the last stone, who only needs very little work to do so: I have my doubts, as this method of honing on convex stones requires more experience than even the undoubtful experience needing process of honing on flat stones. As a matter of fact this process, as far as I know, is only used by knifemakers, knivegrinders and barbers. so basically he tells us, that we normal dudes do not know enough/have not had the years of training required to hone on convex stones
The razor, by far, does not hold an edge needed for use after the sole usage of stones; the sweeping/stroking/stropping god damn, there is no really good English word for that - all of us agree on stropping, so most likely stropping is the best translation has to happen, which polishes the cutting edge, meaning it removes the last bits of roughness left behind by the stones.
This work, as it is well known, is done by using the so called pull-off strop or hanging - here again there is no English translation for this other than leather strop strop, which is made from a veal or Russian leather strip, whose fleshside leather has 2 sides is used and beforehand impregnated with a mixture of fine honing or polishing powders and fat. For these compounds/powders polishing red (kolkothar) is used for one side and black lead/graphite I simply do not know which it was, although I'm betting on graphite, this compounds can still be bought today btw. Herold makes them, this typical red and black compound for the other strop side.
This was written around 175 years ago.
It seems to indicates that this method would be considered a more advanced way of honing a razor back then.
It also indicates the a pasted strop was used, which creates a little convexity behind the apex.
Translation by a German razor enthusiast.
His take on the matter was just "I think these Solingen blades are thin enough" I think he had a point
Polytechnische Mittheilungen, Volum 3, Page 28 and 29
G) Straight Razors
The blade of the aforementioned has a uniqueness, which sets it apart from all other types of knives: the full hollow ground, from spine to cutting edge and a thickness of material close to the cutting edge close to nonexistent when compared to the much thicker spine. These characteristics have their good reasons. As it is generally known, to prepare a straight razor for use, after it has been as close as possible completed on the the rotating sharpening stone/wheel, it has to be honed on a flat hand stone; this means it has to be laid flat on the (with oil coated) stone in the specific manner of letting the spine and bevel touch the stone simultaneously, and under very mild pressure, against the cutting edge, - to avoid burr formation - guide the razor on both sides as long as it is necessary. Doing this forms 2 thin (usually 0.2 to max 0.6mm broad) bevels, when those two become one the cutting angle of the razor is set. The hollow nature of the sides, even though it does not contribute to the cutting angle of the razor, is of great importance for this task: it causes the knife to be in contact with the stone on only two places, so it is very easy to be held in this position, some could say it almost holds itself in position, because there are no other points of contact to be found. The most useful result of this is the fact, that the aforementioned bevels will be even and smooth; where as in the sharpening process of a razor with non hollow ground sides and weaker/skinnier spine, an artificial inclination against the stones surface has to be introduced, which is not as reliable, and with the resulting unstableness on the one hand side comes an uncertain cutting angle or on the other hand side, even worse, a slight convex in the bevels, which greatly depletes the needed fineness of the cutting edge.
If it was the goal to create a razor with an even (non hollow) side and a spine, so thick, that it would touch the stone while honing in the same manner as mentioned above, the blade would be needed to be honed evenly across the whole side, which would not only make the business of sharpening razors immensely difficult and take longer but also the guidance of the razor by hand, as the worker, unbeknownst, could lift the spine or the bevel of the razor a tiny bit off the stone.
The hollowness has another use case: it is the reason, why the bevel inwards has an even thickness across a long distance which lets the razor keep a smooth edge with a small bevel/cutting edge, which makes the process of honing easier and faster.
The stone used for honing has to be hard, with very dense structure and even grit, because without these characteristics there is no way a smooth cutting edge can be produced. Some use 2 or 3 stones with gradual fineness in grit; it can be said, without a doubt/certainly that by only using one single very fine stone - maybe with a bit/significant more time needed - the goal of a smooth edge can be reached, this might even be better for the bevel/cutting edge, as the harsh grit marks from the lower grit stones do not need to be polished out. Others go even one step further and change the surface of the stones used in their gradual sharpening stone set. A well-versed man in this matter (honing razors) told me of this for him very advantageous practice: The first, sharpest/best biting/roughest stone (which can be an oil or water stone) shall be made to a convex surface. The second stone in the arsenal, which is a levantinian oilstone that word does not really exist anymore/is a negatively connoted word.. so it should better be called stone from the orient or an arabic one from syria/lebanon/jordan etc. shall be prepared in the same way, even though with less convexness; only the third (last) stone shall be flat, and for this one a fine hard clay slate stone (blue sharpening stone) shall be chosen, here the honing shall always be done with water only. This method is rational; with the convexness of the first two stones the steel near the bevel will be thinned down successively, which only leads to a superbly thin bevel with the last stone, who only needs very little work to do so: I have my doubts, as this method of honing on convex stones requires more experience than even the undoubtful experience needing process of honing on flat stones. As a matter of fact this process, as far as I know, is only used by knifemakers, knivegrinders and barbers. so basically he tells us, that we normal dudes do not know enough/have not had the years of training required to hone on convex stones
The razor, by far, does not hold an edge needed for use after the sole usage of stones; the sweeping/stroking/stropping god damn, there is no really good English word for that - all of us agree on stropping, so most likely stropping is the best translation has to happen, which polishes the cutting edge, meaning it removes the last bits of roughness left behind by the stones.
This work, as it is well known, is done by using the so called pull-off strop or hanging - here again there is no English translation for this other than leather strop strop, which is made from a veal or Russian leather strip, whose fleshside leather has 2 sides is used and beforehand impregnated with a mixture of fine honing or polishing powders and fat. For these compounds/powders polishing red (kolkothar) is used for one side and black lead/graphite I simply do not know which it was, although I'm betting on graphite, this compounds can still be bought today btw. Herold makes them, this typical red and black compound for the other strop side.
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^
Sounds about right.
Well, I might as well weigh in here.
JPO thanks for that excellent and wise information.
In reality, those of us who are honing and stropping are all shaving on convex edges, and that convexity is the result of stropping. Ask yourself, why do we strop? I will give you a hint, it is not to straighten the edge, or the edge of the edge.
No, we do this because stropping on leather and or stropping on linen reduces the thickness of the edge. All living breathing organic things including the palm of our hand and the leather of a cow or any other animal and all rooted plants contain silica, and it is that silica in the strop that reduces the thickness and the shape of the steel edge. Silica can and does grind steel.
In the reduction of the edge, something has to give and it will always be the steel. If you have a paddle strop the reduction will follow the form of the base of the stiff paddle for the most part, but logically as you draw the blade off the paddle the trailing edge will create a wave of convexity. If with a hanging strop, the reduction will follow the form of the slack of the strop, and in doing so the edge will begin to mimic the very reverse of the slack-curve of the strop or that of a convex paddle.
Silica is the final arbitrator.
From my perspective, the only portion of a straight razor that is hollow ground "concave" is the steel between the razors spine and the base of the bevel. There may have been a translation issue on that score. Conversely, the only portion of the cutting edge of a razor that is convex is that of the bevel of the edge. It is this bevel that helps to create a smooth edge. The Gillette safety razors are formed to create a convex form just behind the edge, and this is done to "puff" the skin behind the edge to facilitate access to the hair at the micro level near the skin. In other words, a convex form.
I am off to work, please feel free to criticize this posting.
Alx
JPO thanks for that excellent and wise information.
In reality, those of us who are honing and stropping are all shaving on convex edges, and that convexity is the result of stropping. Ask yourself, why do we strop? I will give you a hint, it is not to straighten the edge, or the edge of the edge.
No, we do this because stropping on leather and or stropping on linen reduces the thickness of the edge. All living breathing organic things including the palm of our hand and the leather of a cow or any other animal and all rooted plants contain silica, and it is that silica in the strop that reduces the thickness and the shape of the steel edge. Silica can and does grind steel.
In the reduction of the edge, something has to give and it will always be the steel. If you have a paddle strop the reduction will follow the form of the base of the stiff paddle for the most part, but logically as you draw the blade off the paddle the trailing edge will create a wave of convexity. If with a hanging strop, the reduction will follow the form of the slack of the strop, and in doing so the edge will begin to mimic the very reverse of the slack-curve of the strop or that of a convex paddle.
Silica is the final arbitrator.
From my perspective, the only portion of a straight razor that is hollow ground "concave" is the steel between the razors spine and the base of the bevel. There may have been a translation issue on that score. Conversely, the only portion of the cutting edge of a razor that is convex is that of the bevel of the edge. It is this bevel that helps to create a smooth edge. The Gillette safety razors are formed to create a convex form just behind the edge, and this is done to "puff" the skin behind the edge to facilitate access to the hair at the micro level near the skin. In other words, a convex form.
I am off to work, please feel free to criticize this posting.
Alx
I think the leather strop when handled properly can do allot more then we give it credit for.
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You picked a fight and got one. Congratulations.
@sbogill
I typically encourage my kids to assert themselves when needed. Nevertheless, I've also advised them to disengage from individuals who stir up trouble, shift blame onto others for their own actions, and play the victim card.
Attempting to reason with such people is futile; they're adept at manipulating situations to their advantage regardless of what's said or done.
Ironically, I realize now that I should've heeded my own counsel.
Why is this approach viewed as a joke?
You've labeled it a gimmick in various forums. Could you elaborate on your perspective?
I typically encourage my kids to assert themselves when needed. Nevertheless, I've also advised them to disengage from individuals who stir up trouble, shift blame onto others for their own actions, and play the victim card.
Attempting to reason with such people is futile; they're adept at manipulating situations to their advantage regardless of what's said or done.
Ironically, I realize now that I should've heeded my own counsel.
Why is this approach viewed as a joke?
You've labeled it a gimmick in various forums. Could you elaborate on your perspective?
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- Thread starter
- #57
I’ve clarified that before but I don’t mind doing it again. The part of it that I think is a joke is how he claims his method is the correct way and that people that hone the normal way are doing it wrong. I also find him personally to be repugnant. I’m sure he gets good edges that shave well but no better than any number of other guys in these forums.
Probably true. But it is the same as the guy who insists that a Jnat will, ALWAYS give you better results than an Ark. Or the coticule champion. Or that one must follow one of the myriad of “methods” that have been touted over the years.
Eventually you just learn to roll your eyes when you see people tilting at windmills. This too shall pass.
Does it work? Yeah probably. So does a bunch of other ways, and it’s really not worth arguing about. At least the mechanics of this is slightly interesting (to a few people) to think on, and work out.
Absolutely, you've touched upon a crucial point. In the realm of razor honing, much like in discussions, the differences in results from various methods can indeed be subtle and subjective.
Just as in debates or conversations where emotions often run high and personal attacks overshadow substantive discussion, the nuances of honing methods can sometimes be overshadowed by passionate advocacy for one approach over another.
While there are enthusiasts who swear by specific honing techniques, it's essential to recognize that the differences in the final edge achieved through different methods may not always be readily apparent to everyone. What matters most is finding a method that works well for the individual and produces satisfactory results.
In both cases, whether honing razors or engaging in dialogue, it's crucial to approach the process with an open mind, a willingness to listen to different perspectives, and a commitment to civility and respect. Ultimately, the goal is to achieve a sharp edge or reach a deeper understanding, rather than getting caught up in contentious debates or personal attacks.
I have seen this micro convexity on some of my JNAT edges. It is hard to tell if what i am seeing is a real affect, or if it's just a confirmation bias on my part. I also see this effect a little better if i use some of my Asano naguras.
What is your take on this?
I usually get a slightly smoother edge if i put in the effort and use a few naguras.
I am not able to replicate this with synthetic stones, so it's not just the strop that is at play here (just speculating here).
