How Do You Measure Closeness?

[Joe Lerch]

This isn't directly related to method shaving, but I need method shavers to respond, because they'r the best test group..

My philosophy has always been that I could shave clean with any razor if I was willing to pay the price. I've measured closeness by how long it takes to begin stubbling up. My shaving procedure is essentially consistent, and that's why I'm addressing method shavers: I want input from people who follow a consistent procedure. I would love input from the method shaving veterans who must have lots of experience with different people.

I'm trying to determine two things: the consistency of your time to minimum stubble (whatever your approach is- it would be interesting if you described it) with a given razor and blade; and the actual range of the time with different razors and blades. Don't look at the long term, because we know hair growth changes with season and such. But let's look at a period of a few weeks.

I'll start the ball rolling. With a particular razor and blade (as long as it feels sharp) I get very consistent results. It's easily within half an hour. I'm a perfectionist , so I now finish off every shave with an injector using a cut off Feather str8 blade. It lets me get every last whisker. When the stubble starts coming in it now seems to be a little thicker (or more uniform over an area) than before. To judge stubble-up, I feel my entire face for stubble. I usually find it first in the same spot (actually one of two spots).

My results have been as follows: Futur/Feather 10 hrs; slant/Feather 9hrs; Vision or Progress with Feather or str8 (Feather str8 seems to be somewhat better than others) 8+ hrs; DEs with Merkur, Personna and Wilkinson blades 6-7 hrs. (Vision and slant at the high end; Futur and Progress in the middle; and Gillette adjustable at the lower); Gillette M3P motorized 5+ hrs. I also tried the injector with the Feather str8 blade for a full shave but it was dificult to use, although it's great for touchup, so I don't have any results for it. Results for injectors with personna blades were the same as the lower end of the general DE category.

Please participate and let us know whatever information you have. I'm particularly interested in the variation of your results with a fixed setup. So, if you always use the same one that is extremely important information to me.

Thanks for your response.

 

[Brett G]

Joe,
To be honest, this isn't something that I've ever given much thought to. I make sure my face is smooth before I leave the sink and then forget about it until the next morning. My beard is quite dark relative to my skin tone so I have a shadow even right after I shave. My wife calls it the Homer Simpson Effect.

As far as stubble goes, I am not much of a faceturbator and my wife doesn't complain about bristle until the next day. I am pretty sure that I don't have any significant growth until late in the day and then it is on my neck and jaw-line. My cheeks stay virtually smooth until I retire for the night.

Although a method shaver, I use different razors and products. I don't notice any differences in closeness, only in the condition of my skin after prolonged use (which is why I'm a method shaver in the first place).

Now that you have asked a specific question I will pay closer attention to it. I'll try and have a better answer in a week or two.

 

[Joe Lerch]

Thanks very much Brett.

I guess, based on what you said, you wouldn't have noticed if any of your students had consistent or widely varying grow-in times with the razor (I guess Progress with Feather blade) they were using.

Now that I think about it, guys just learning could have inconsistent results and may not be a very useful example.

I keep seeing posts where a guy says this is closer than that (like I did), and I always thought it meant that they were getting some kind of consistency, like me. Then one guy tells me he's getting a two to one variation with a given setup and is rating the closeness of different setups. If that was generally true I would diregard the entire approach, because the variation in a single setup would swamp out the variation between setups.

 

[Brett G]

Joe,
If someone is getting vastly inconsistent results, then in my opinion it is a technique issue rather than a product issue. That is assuming that they are using quality items in the first place, and most guys that wet shave probably are. There is no way that any decent wet shaving item shaves twice as close as another. There can certainly be small variances, especially in regards to the appearance of stubble. I have heard many str8 shavers say that their stubble stays away for an extra few hours as compared to using a DE. I never took the trouble to time mine but I believe it happens.

I have said before that the overwhelming majority of wet shavers are product driven rather than technique driven. They think the answer lies in the product and that is the wrong approach. I believe very strongly that an experienced shaver who understands what he is using and how it interacts with his products can get a skin close shave with almost anything.

I also think that most experienced wet shavers (particulary ones who learned on their own) are locked into a certain style. They find products that work with that technique and either stick with them exclusively or use them as a home base. Absolutely nothing wrong with it. It just means that most product reviews need to be taken with a grain of salt (probably great advice no matter what).

A great example is the post that I put up a few days ago about shaving with just the Cube. It didn't work well, not because it can't be cut, but because I didn't understand how it would work with the tools and technique I mistakenly chose to use. I could definitely make it work. My conclusion was, why bother. The point is if you are using a razor that is in good working condition, a quality blade, a badger brush, and a shaving medium that holds a decent amount of water in a stable fashion, it can work. Widely varying results is the mark of a rookie.

 

[Joe Lerch]

That was what I thought, but I wanted to see what your objective reaction would be.

I think it's especially true if the wide variations come when using a single set of products and a fixed routine. In other words, I might expect some variation, but if a shaver has his method grooved it should be minimal.

I could see where there could be a difference between different razors, such as you mention the generally known difference between str8s and DEs. I also point to the velocity differences method shaving finds between the Progress on the one hand and the Futur and Vision on the other. In my experiments, even those differences didn't represent wide variations. That and consistency are what led me to trust my results.

Joe,
If someone is getting vastly inconsistent results, then in my opinion it is a technique issue rather than a product issue.

 

[methodshaving.com]

Joe,

I have been offline for a week during a move and have a few more days till Internet access is at the home. Interesting questions and something I am in the process of writing an article on!!

I can tell you this much so far, my results do not change so much between blades or blade types. For me a good clean shave is a good clean shave with ~10 hours of clean face time, this can be with any blade/razor combo. The difference seems to be the condition of my face a few hours later. I can shave clean with just about anything. The difference is with CAR products my skin is clearer, smoother and softer in the long run.

I often hear people say "CAR's products are ok but they don't shave me any better than the 3 T's" It is this very concept that I struggle with the most. First a clean shave is a clean shave and I think people should look at it in a postive light that they get an equal result shave wise. On the other hand the telling factor is the long term results on your skin, this should be the telling factor in a good clean shave. As I do not subscribe to the thought that on product will shave you better, that is the work of a blade, razor, and technique. I think to many people take offense when thier technique is called into question. For example, I often see claims along the line of "Taylors rose shave me better than Trumpers rose." Aside from the potential personal irritation related to fragrancing, I do not see much of a difference between any of the qulaity traditional English style creams. Some are denser, some are wetter, some are harder to work, yet in the end these are minute differences.

So back to your question... I will pay close attention and rotate through a few combos and let you know if my opinion changes.

 

[Joe Lerch]

I can tell you this much so far, my results do not change so much between blades or blade types. For me a good clean shave is a good clean shave with ~10 hours of clean face time, this can be with any blade/razor combo. The difference seems to be the condition of my face a few hours later. I can shave clean with just about anything. The difference is with CAR products my skin is clearer, smoother and softer in the long run.

If that includes str8s I would be surprized. I don't know if you followed any of the posts on it, but a number of us are using injectors with cut down Feather str8 blades. That's an amazing combination. It's so sharp that it cuts by just grazing the razor over the face. I use it to finish. That one should do better. On the other hand I can't imagine going 10 hours on an M3 shave.

I often hear people say "CAR's products are ok but they don't shave me any better than the 3 T's" It is this very concept that I struggle with the most. First a clean shave is a clean shave and I think people should look at it in a postive light that they get an equal result shave wise. On the other hand the telling factor is the long term results on your skin, this should be the telling factor in a good clean shave. As I do not subscribe to the thought that on product will shave you better, that is the work of a blade, razor, and technique. I think to many people take offense when thier technique is called into question. For example, I often see claims along the line of "Taylors rose shave me better than Trumpers rose." Aside from the potential personal irritation related to fragrancing, I do not see much of a difference between any of the qulaity traditional English style creams. Some are denser, some are wetter, some are harder to work, yet in the end these are minute differences.

I agree that people attribute too much to products. With good prep and any good products (used properly) the shave itself should not vary much. I too, would suspect inconsistent technique. On the other hand, I believe that products can affect how easily the shave is achieved, how comfortable you feel and how your skin feels after that.

So back to your question... I will pay close attention and rotate through a few combos and let you know if my opinion changes.

I look forward to seeing what your results will be.

 

[jmsbcknr]

What I can tell you is that I get a longer lasting shave--8+ hours--if I use a straight for two swipes and finish up with a DE. When I travel I use my feather and a Dovo. I don't know why but even though my face feels as smooth immediately after the shave as it does with a blade, the shave does not seem to last as long.

I follow the same procedure every morning. The only things that change are the soap I might choose and the type of razor I use to complete the first two swipes. I use a Vision with a feather high stainless platnum blade to clean up the spots that are always there no matter how I turn the blade.

I have tried shaving only with the Vision using the most agressive setting and a feather high stainless platnum blade and completed three swipes (down, across and against the grain). The face was just as clean as if I had used my blade but the shave did not last as long 6+ hours.

I don't know what that says except on my face that has tree trunks growing out of it I get the best and longest lasting shave with a combination of the blade and the Vision.

jmsbcknr

 

[Joe Lerch]

What I can tell you is that I get a longer lasting shave--8+ hours--if I use a straight for two swipes and finish up with a DE. When I travel I use my feather and a Dovo. I don't know why but even though my face feels as smooth immediately after the shave as it does with a blade, the shave does not seem to last as long.

I follow the same procedure every morning. The only things that change are the soap I might choose and the type of razor I use to complete the first two swipes. I use a Vision with a feather high stainless platnum blade to clean up the spots that are always there no matter how I turn the blade.

I have tried shaving only with the Vision using the most agressive setting and a feather high stainless platnum blade and completed three swipes (down, across and against the grain). The face was just as clean as if I had used my blade but the shave did not last as long 6+ hours.

I don't know what that says except on my face that has tree trunks growing out of it I get the best and longest lasting shave with a combination of the blade and the Vision.

jmsbcknr

A competent shaver can get a clean shave with just about anyting. The real test of closeness is how long it takes to re-stubble.

I do the same kind of cleanup as you, but I use an injector razor with a cutoff Feather str8 blade.

The Vision is pretty close with a Feather blade, but the Futur and slant are the champions. A shave with those outlasts a shave with a str8. I don't think that touching up will affect the time to stubble up. It only cuts down the stragglers. You will stubble up when the major whiskers grow in.

 

[ninja]

Brett G said he's not much of a "faceturbator" in his response above. man I'm still rolling on that one, I mean uncontrollably so. Dont know why but that struck my funny bone to no end. I dont even think I can go shave now because I'm laughing too hard. Whew, that one was good, Brett G, really good.

Okay, time to compose yself and be serious here. I have said it before and I will reiterate it once again, the closest, smoothest shave that I personally have ever gotten is with my Mach III. Its at least ten or more hours before I feel any stubble, except on my upper lip where I never shave up against the grain. But with my M3 and some Vulfix shave cream applied with a cheap boar brush my face stays smooth as glass for almost half the day, literally.

Now with my DE and a feather blade, the stubble is there in no time, like a couple hours. I thought I'd get superb quality shaves with a feather in my DE but yet again, it doesn't compare to my M3.

I can get about six or seven hours out of an old Schick Injector. And maybe the same with the rest of my collection of cartridge razors (various Schicks, Gillettes, etc.).

I have tried to beat the Mach III shave every way I know how, but I gotta admit its the smoothest, closest, and longest lasting shave I've ever gotten. I thought for sure I'd beat it with the Feathers but no go, the M3 does better for me.

The only real unexplroed ground for me is a str8, and I do own a Dovo. But I cant use it for crap so it sits waiting for me to get a stop, hone it and take the time to learn.