Honing woes

[Templar]

Hi all,

Sorry to be the hundreth newbie to ask this, but I need a diagnosis on what I'm doing wrong. I'm determined to nail honing (and not pay for someone else to do it!), but I can't seem to get it.

I have a couple of Kochling stones, a 1K/3K and an 8K. I also have a roughly 12K welsh slate, but it's tiny and I'm not really using it at this stage.

The straight I'm trying to hone was a Whipped Dog sight unseen wonder - old as hell and worn out to boot, but I know it is a good blade, not a cheap chinese one and it was sharp when I got it. Before my criminal stropping blunted it. It was still cutting, but it was more of a pull by the time I decided to hone it up.

I've lapped the stones until flat, then lapped a bit more with 800 grit wet/dry. I've honed until I hurt - gently, never raising the spine off the stone, never applying any real pressure (other than the pressure of my fingertips on the spine, to stop it lifting!) using the x-pattern and i've got it to the point where a dry thumb run across the blade can be heard clearly - just like hearing the hairs cut. Unfortunately, a wet thumb slides across as if the razor is completely blunt! And when I come to shave, it pulls badly on the hairs, and some it just ignores, leaving them long and weird looking. I've tried going back to the 1K and setting the bevel (how in the hell do you know when it's set?!) before moving slowly up, always using 5 or 6 times as many passes on the next stone up.

What am I doing wrong? I know it's tough to judge without seeing/feeling the blade or watching me work, but I'm hoping you guys are so used to these questions that you can tell me anyway! I'm really going out of my mind now - I don't like being defeated by inanimate objects!!!

Cheers all!

 

[ScottinAZ]

what aided my honing immensely was a cheap set of eye loupe magnifiers from harbor freight. they allow you to see the edge much better, and determine if you are actually getting to the edge of the blade. also, make sure you aren't using too much pressure (if any) on the blade, or it will roll the business side and while it will look sharp, wont cut squat. It took the magnifiers before I could see that is what I was doing.

for more info on what this looks like, check out the "stubborn wedgie" thread. I have some decent pics in there that show the issues I was having, namely not fully setting the bevel, and what that looks like under magnification

 

[buca3152]

The cheap chinese blades are great to practice on. Some of the sight unseen whipped dogs have more issues than gold dollars. Magic marker test is a big one. You have to learn which stroke will accomodate the blade. They are usually not perfectly flat. It takes some time so dont give up and you will get it. A scope or good loupe is very helpful as was said. If there is someone near to you that can mentor you, you can learn alot in a short time.

 

[BakerAndBadger]

Are you undercutting the slurry? You need to undercut the slurry on each stone. Pressure is very hard to judge - sometimes I use a lot, other times hardly any - you just know when it's enough - if you can get hold of a coticule they can take you from your 1K to shave ready with a Unicot and you can more or less follow the instructions step by step to begin with.
That being said, if you know someone near you that can hone then try and meet up - they've gone through this before you so should be able to help you out.

 

[jpcwon]

I am not familiar with the Kochling stones, but if I had to take a wild guess I would say that your bevel needs to be set. And by set, I mean REALLY set....You mentioned that you were just using light pressure....Don't be afraid to use some firm pressure during the bevel-setting stage. You should be able to shave arm hair without any resistance off of the 1k stone. If you can't do that, then I think you need to spend more time on the 1k. Sometimes it takes me 20-30 mins to set a bevel...you really need to work at it until you get it..

Trying to compensate for an unset bevel when you get higher up in the grits does NOT work (I've tried!!). Setting the bevel is 80-90% of honing...the rest is just icing on the cake. I think it was Gamma who said that most if not all of the "sharpening stage" of honing takes place before 3k..after 3k you're just refining the edge....

 

[Templar]

Thanks a bunch guys - I'll try to get a set of loupes and see what I'm doing. The note about the bevel may well be right as well - I'm worried I'll wear out the blade if I use that too much!

Finally, I haven't tried to make up a slurry on the stones - I thought the waterstones didn't need one built up? They do build one after a while, not a thick one, and I guess it's about 50-50 as to how much ends up on top or under the blade. I'll have another crack at it at the weekend.

Thanks again!

 

[seattleshaver]

It sounds like you need to figure out stropping first. If you took a well honed blade from WD and made it so that you need to reset the bevel it sounds like you need to figure out how you got to that point first.

You don't need a lot of pressure to reset the bevel but I agree that most of the work is done on the 1k and the rest is just giving you a smoother (not appreciably sharper) shave.

 

[Chaloney]

I'm worried I'll wear out the blade if I use that too much!
Thanks again!

This is the root of your problem. If your not willing to wear away some steel you'll never get it sharp!

 

[hillbilly pick]

This is the root of your problem. If your not willing to wear away some steel you'll never get it sharp!

+1

1k does take off metal but that is the name if the game when setting the bevel like these guys are saying. I was told to torque toward the edge when setting bevel and even on 4k. Don't get out of hand but give it some help.

If your 1k is making metal fly off the razor, it's a) too aggressive or b) razor is of low quality.

hope this helps don't give up

 

[Steve56]

Get the loupes. If you're not looking as much as you're honing, IMO you're not doing it right. And good magnification will keep you from honing more than necessary.

Check the bevel to be sure you've erased the last hone marks, and check the edge - where the bevels meet - to make sure you don't see anything but a uniform line when rotating the blade under light from a bare bulb. Get the brightest reflection you can on the bevel then rotate the blade to get the brightest reflection closer and closer to the edge untill you rotate the edge straight on. No sparklies, no shiny lines, no dips, from the heel to toe. You'll have to look at the edge like this in sections heel to toe. This is working for me.

Cheers, Steve

 

[Gamma]

You haven't been defeated.
You've only been challenged. Defeat is when you quit, and you're still in the game.

Bevel - bevel - bevel.

Loupe, no loupe, Chinese ***, WD seen/unseen, Norton Kochling or Naniwa - whatevah .... don't mean spit unless you get the bevel done right.

It takes time to learn - so enjoy the process. Don't get frustrated and if you do then take a breather.
A lot of this is common sense and common sense can go out the window with frustration in the picture.

No one was born knowing how to do this. When we start, all of us, we go through the same learning stages.
Some learn faster, others slower - doesn't make anyone better or worse at this. That's just how it is.

 

[buca3152]

Slashs method got the bug in me when I first started. Take a junk blade and hone until you have a bur on both sides. This is an experiment only. You will be surprised as I was at how long it may take. Check his posts, there are enough of them on here.

 

[BakerAndBadger]

Slashs method got the bug in me when I first started. Take a junk blade and hone until you have a bur on both sides. This is an experiment only. You will be surprised as I was at how long it may take. Check his posts, there are enough of them on here.

Fully agree with that, I'd forgotten the method but it certainly works!
GDs love it.

 

[Alum of Potash]

(Edit: I looked at the Kochling and it doesn't seem to be a Suehiro, more like a Naniwa SS combination regarding the coloration.)

I would say rather than straight X-strokes, incorporate some half-stroke (stropping) movement into your strokes as well. This will keep a burr from building up from the start. Using two hands to do this on a bench, I make a few half-strokes at the start, leading to what looks like a "check-mark" shaped X-stroke afterwards. The initial part of the "check" is spine leading, followed by the edge-leading X-stroke proper afterwards. With one-hand hand-held, I use a series of half-strokes leading to X-strokes. Either way works. But as always, YMMV.

(Edit: the video with small circles that Gamma linked looks good to me. One thing I appreciate there is how the water stays on the surface of the Chosera 1k throughout the 14+ minute video.)

 

[Slash McCoy]

This is the root of your problem. If your not willing to wear away some steel you'll never get it sharp!

+1. Honing essentially is nothing more than the controlled wearing away of steel from a blade. Got to break some eggs to make an omelet. Got to sacrifice some steel to get a bevel. The only real question is "How much?", and the answer is, "As much as it takes."

 

[Slash McCoy]

Fully agree with that, I'd forgotten the method but it certainly works!
GDs love it.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, guys. It is strong medicine, overkill for many blades, but just the thing when a lot of steel needs to go byebye anyhow. Or for learning.

 

[buca3152]

The beauty of your method Slash is anybody can do it and see it. No high tech or trying tests you don't know how to do at first.

 

[Templar]

Hi All,

Thanks for your replies. Sorry I haven't gotten back to you sooner, but this weekend is the first I've had a chance to put what you say into practice.

I have a small loupe that I've had kicking about the place anyway, but it's only about 5x. I have a USB microscope on order. However, I've tried using the small loupe and getting generous on the 1K stone...to no effect. I still end up with the same result: feels sharp on a dry thumb, and blunt on a wet one. I've tried the circles, x-strokes, everything, and I've honed for an hour at least. The loupe shows the striations on the bevel, but isn't powerful enough to show if the bevels meet (It certainly looks like they do). I think I'm wearing metal away, but it's not getting any sharper.

I noticed, compared to the video above, that I don't build up a slurry like he does. My stone blackens, but the slurry doesn't follow the blade. It just embeds in the stone. Is this a problem with the stone? I've lapped it with 800k wet and dry, and it's weird that the 1k feels smoother than the 3k, but that may be my imagination.

Anyway, I'll get the microscope and take proper pictures. If it doesn't tell me what I'm doing wrong I'll post them here for more advice.

Cheers all.

 

[Gamma]

The stone has to be lapped flat, not just lapped.
I've never lapped a 1k past 325x - no need.
Flat is flat - test with a known straight edge in all possible directions in several places.
FWIW - a 99 cent ruler from Kmart might not actually be 'straight', so there's that to deal with.

You don't 'need' a loupe to see if the bevel's faces are meeting. Holding the edge under a good lamp with tell you what you need to know.
If you see a reflection right on the edge, that's a 'flat' and the bevel isn't meeting there.
Looking at the edge under magnification is helpful, when you know what to look for.
Most importantlly though - common sense applied throughout the honing cycle should guide you in the right direction.
5x is more than enough to view what is going on at the bevel - I use a 4x 99% of the time.
I do use higher-powered optics for critical viewing but the grunt work is very obvious at 4x.

I don't know your stones at all, so I can't comment on whether or not they're appropriate for what you're trying to do.
Chances are you can get them to work for you, but perhaps not. Just because the box a stone came in says it's 1k, doesn't mean much.
Maybe you need to soak it, maybe not.
Without anyone else using that exact stone, it's hard to troubleshoot - and since you don't have experience with a lot of razor hones it's equally hard for you to judge what's up.