HBA - Hard black Arkansas - brand id

[sd_baker]

I found this 2x6x0.5 arkansas stone. This is the best picture for it. I can't tell if this is a rebadged Dan's or some other less reputable brand.

Can anyone tell if this is Dan's?

Should I buy and roll the ?

 

[Wid]

If cheap enough otherwise get a Dans. I’d personally just get a known commodity, Dans.

 

[Christian1212]

+1 for just going with dans. Not worth the risk and extra hassel

 

[sd_baker]

I called them and they would only say it's a US based manufacturer, but did say the surface is finished to be very flat.

I posted this because I know Dan's does OEM productions for other companies; I was hoping someone can spot any telltale signs to confirm or disconfirm this.

 

[Wid]

If it’s a lot cheaper than Dans direct prices chances are it’s not. From the picture it doesn’t look like a Dans black.

 

[Mr Kooby Shemayrew]

I posted this because I know Dan's does OEM productions for other companies

I am of the belief (with out any evidence mind you) that the lesser grade materials coming out of Dan’s quarry is badged and sold as other brands.

There are several websites, other vendors, basically identical to the Dan’s webpage and the boxes they come in all look the same.

I would not expect all material coming out of Dan’s quarry to be Dan’s top notch stuff. So what do you do with the material that is not the best stuff? I don’t think Dan’s is simply throwing it away. It has to be going somewhere.

And this lesser material has proven to be fine for knife work. Razors are a totally different ball of wax. We are always chasing that last 1%. If you are buying a new hone, spending money on a Dan’s eliminates the gamble.

 

[sd_baker]

Thanks for the feedback. I nixed this and went for a Norton HB14 4x1" translucent instead as a way to dip my toe into the Arkansas pool.

 

[Gamma]

Regardless of the source, a hard black Arkansas stone can be a lot of things. It can be just over the line that divides soft from hard.
Or, it can be all the way up the ladder near or at or over the line that separates the top-tier stones from the plain 'hard Arks'.
Just because the box says Hard Black - does not mean it's going to be like Dan's 'Ultrafine' or a real black translucent, SB, etc.

So yeah, maybe the off-brand stone comes from Dan's, but what grade of stone is it really? Maybe it's from Preyda and it's a Dunston. Can't tell anything from the pic and the seller either doesn't know, doesn't care, or both. Dunstons have been sold as top tier stones by more than one vendor and they all knew the real story.

 

[SliceOfLife]

As someone who bought black arkansas from basically every mine that's now supposedly now pushing that Dunston stuff (Halls, NWC, etc)... and was happy with the stones I bought at the time(this was a decade or more ago when I bought it).... I would only buy a vintage norton/pike/wareagle/etc, a modern dans, or a stone I could SEE translucence in if I were buying a black ark today. Too many bad reports/etc over the past few years on black arkansas from other vendors and this Dunston stuff is worthless for razors in my opinion.

I've got my not translucent 12x3" Halls Surgical Black; and it's great... but I bought this in 2012 I think... Would NOT make that gamble today. And I don't think I'll ever sell it; because I'm sure the value TANKED with these mines selling this Dunston junk as Surgical Black. So it has become a permanent resident of my collection.

I made my one "gamble" black ark buy a month or two ago on a "Surgical Black" pinnacle on eBay for cheap and finally got to try this Dunston stuff and I wouldn't even shave test off it; nowhere near a razor finisher.

 

[sd_baker]

My understanding is the Norton translucent is still a reliable brand from Devan Jackson on yt comparing synthetics and naturals.

 

[Empire straights]

My understanding is the Norton translucent is still a reliable brand from Devan Jackson on yt comparing synthetics and naturals.

Norton translucents are great and are very fine. Great razor finishers.

 

[lightfoot]

My understanding is the Norton translucent is still a reliable brand from Devan Jackson on yt comparing synthetics and naturals.

Their current production translucents do seem to be rather abrasive considering the grade of stone. My only caution is that they are generally not flat out of the box so some lapping is needed.

That said they cut well and are definitely suitable for our needs.

 

[Gamma]

Last Norton translucent Ark, 8x3x0.5", I bought was a gem. Like glass, not granular or excessively abrasive. Was a good stone, and several before that one were the same. At the time they were being blown out on fleabay for about $80-90. That cycle comes around every so often but the prices continually go up so the next round will probably be priced higher.

Black Arks though, they don't have to be a Dunston to be not great for finishing. A lot of them can be and have been very soft. It's part of the deal, and it's part of why people struggle, sometimes, with Ark progressions. They wind up with a soft that is hard for it's class and a hard that is soft for it's class. My first hard black Ark was not so hard. Had a hard White ark what was incredibly hard. People should get away from talking about black arks as though they are and can be only one thing... they're not and never have been.

 

[sd_baker]

Their current production translucents do seem to be rather abrasive considering the grade of stone. My only caution is that they are generally not flat out of the box so some lapping is needed.

That said they cut well and are definitely suitable for our needs.

Oh then I'm in luck, 'cause I love lapping stones over and over apparently.

WARPING - Naniwa Gouken Kagayaki 10 mm , i.e. Super Stone

This has happened to me too - Naniwa Gouken Kagayaki 10 mm. Here is what I mean exactly by warping: Flatten stone both sides. Verify flatness. Dry off with towel and stand up on long side and allow to dry fully for 2 hours. Verify flatness. There is now a noticeable bow on both ends of the...

www.badgerandblade.com

 

[lightfoot]

Last Norton translucent Ark, 8x3x0.5", I bought was a gem. Like glass, not granular or excessively abrasive. Was a good stone, and several before that one were the same. At the time they were being blown out on fleabay for about $80-90. That cycle comes around every so often but the prices continually go up so the next round will probably be priced higher.

Black Arks though, they don't have to be a Dunston to be not great for finishing. A lot of them can be and have been very soft. It's part of the deal, and it's part of why people struggle, sometimes, with Ark progressions. They wind up with a soft that is hard for it's class and a hard that is soft for it's class. My first hard black Ark was not so hard. Had a hard White ark what was incredibly hard. People should get away from talking about black arks as though they are and can be only one thing... they're not and never have been.

You know I always thought those Norton 8 x 3 translucent (in the grey plastic box) would always be around. Boy was I wrong because they definitely don’t offer them in that size anymore…

 

[Gamma]

Boxes i had were blue. All their translucent stones, allegedly, in more recent times anyway, have come out of the same hole in the ground, so - theoretically - very consistent. So the sizes offered at any time are just marketing and packaging. They're cut in Mexico I think. My last price sheet from St Gobain listed them. Ordering is one thing, delivery is another. Their last batches of Arks have been offered intermittently, based on, I suppose, inventory and interest.

 

[lightfoot]

I remember seeing that stone on sharpening supplies and I wrote down the item number and I had actually managed to contact Norton directly over the phone. They didn’t seem to find a match to that item number but if you saw that size offered on their list then that’s something to think about…

I think it was the HTB-83?

I should’ve grabbed one when they were easy to get.

 

[lightfoot]

The only other thing I would caution the OP about is that I personally don’t look at Arkansas Stones in the class being discussed as being directly interchangeable with something like the Naniwa 12K strictly speaking.

If you get one of these high-end Arkansas stones you may find yourself in a situation in which you’re still looking for something to bridge the gap between let’s say in 8000 grit stone and the translucent or black.

 

[Wid]

The only other thing I would caution the OP about is that I personally don’t look at Arkansas Stones in the class being discussed as being directly interchangeable with something like the Naniwa 12K strictly speaking.

If you get one of these high-end Arkansas stones you may find yourself in a situation in which you’re still looking for something to bridge the gap between let’s say in 8000 grit stone and the translucent or black.

Very true. You need a very good edge going to a good ark. Lately I’ve been going Naniwa 12K to Escher/Thuri to Arkansas. That is after reading Keith’s recommendation to do so. It works quite well.

 

[Frank Shaves]

If you buy a Dan's from Knife Center you will save a few bucks over buying directly from Dan's.