For The Tool Bag & Hardhat Crowd - Multimeters

[StillShaving]

@Phog-Allen I enjoy reading the additional posts. You are helping to serve as editor/filter, as there is too much reading and research for the interested but occasional multi-meter needing DIY person.

I like the size of the Fluke 101 and it would be a good upgrade for me, though I might still prefer the 17B for temperature probe if nothing else. It is on my to-be-considered shopping list.

Is the "Mastech MS3302 AC Current Clamp Transducer" a good accessory to have in the spirit of a kill-a-watt meter to check out major appliances? A few years ago I almost got a kill-a-watt but then considered it to be overkill and a waste of time/money, but the thought process helped to minimize overall household wasted electricity. I am curious to see how much power my coffee roaster consumes per roast, but it is not as if I would stop roasting or change roasters to save a few pennies.

 

[Phog Allen]

Stillshaving, you are correct about too much reading and research. A person cannot keep track of it. And so much has changed in the DMM market the last few years it is not fair to compare my experiences over the last near twenty years to what is going on now. Back then you bought a Fluke...or something else. Most of the names we associate with meters like Amprobe have not really been Amprobe for a long time. Amprobe are part of the Danaher group(Fluke as well) and I suspect they make none of their products. Only rebadged sub contract models. Fluke still makes their own high end stuff here in the States.

In old days Amprobe(I believe) pioneered the clamp on amp meter as a way to keep from having to make dangerous in line, live circuit amperage tests. When the digital age hit, all the makers knew it was going take over the segment but most didn't have the resources or wherewithal to make the investments in research and factory building. Hence the scepticism of guys like me who saw the effects of offshore made products with big names on them fail time after time. Usually not in an explosive way but just quitting when you needed them most.

I am not familiar with the Mastech you mentioned but a search brought one up on Amazon for less than twenty dollars. It seems you have to plug it into an RMS(root mean square/it's an accuracy thing) rated meter to get best results. These sorts of devises are much safer than the cheap DMMs(digital multimeter) since you are not introducing bared metal probes into a live circuit. Just remember, if you are testing the amperage through the appliances service cord, this won't work by itself. With the line and neutral in the same cord jacket they cancel themselves out rendering little to no reading on your amp clamp. You need a line splitter. The idea of the amp clamps is not to have to mess around with exposed live wiring to get the reading. But they are designed to go around one conductor at a time.

The Fluke 101 is not RMS rated so bear than in mind. I am unsure of the 17B. I would also look at mjlorton video channel on YouTube. He does some amazing review work but like EEVblog, they tend to run long. Another option for basic but very reliable voltage and amperage testing is Fluke T5. The 600 volt rated model is about 90-95 dollars at most places and has the amp probe built into the front. Not accurate enough for electronics but rock steady for mains work. But there are some really good meters out there for good prices these days. I would even look at the Klein stuff they are offering now though I have not used them personally.

Fluke T5

Line splitter

 

[calhoun1]

Is it true that the military uses a different frequency for your power? I seem to remember a story from electrical school where the guy used his meter or tic tracer on a high-frequency circuit in a military base. The story goes that meter didn't read the voltage and the guy got belted pretty good. Whether or not it's true, I suppose it still serves as a reminder to always know what you're checking when you check it.

Some of the stuff is higher frequency, but usually that should't affect the actual AC voltage, as it just changes the frequency, not the magnitude of the sine wave.

 

[Raissermesser]

Is it true that the military uses a different frequency for your power? I seem to remember a story from electrical school where the guy used his meter or tic tracer on a high-frequency circuit in a military base. The story goes that meter didn't read the voltage and the guy got belted pretty good. Whether or not it's true, I suppose it still serves as a reminder to always know what you're checking when you check it.

I'm not military, but the only thing I'm aware of is that some bases seem to use delta/delta instead of wye/delta. It's probably bringing coal to Newcastle, but delta/delta requires a single transformer to be connected between two phases for single phase, and wye/delta requires a single transformer to be connected from phase to ground for single phase. Yes, I know you can get single phase out of a bank of transformers, but this is is just to simplify things for the sake of discussion.

There is a critter known as corner grounded three-wire delta service. In this three-phase power configuration, one of the phases is connected to ground. Mind, you that's the only connection to ground, otherwise you'd have a short-circuit. With corner grounded three-wire delta, you get three-phase voltage between phases, but measuring phase to ground, one of the voltages will show zero (because it's connected to ground). Some utilities use this instead of three-wire delta because it prevents crazy voltages in respect to ground; others don't.

Three-wire delta service has three-phase voltages between phases, but since no part is connected to ground, you can have anything from phase to ground. And when I mean anything, I mean 1,000 volts or more. The one time, when I was green, that I tried to measure it, it was 1,300v+ and no, that meter didn't go to the junk pile. That's also one reason we use lineman's gloves throughout and not those dinky thin meterman's gloves: You never quite know what you'll run into.

 

[majorrich]

I am now retired but used DMM's extensively in the field. But, on the bench I like to use an analog meter for flakey components. They still have their place, especially when watching for power fluctuations. I showed my students who poo-pooed the old guy for keeping an old dusty Sencore analog MM on the shelf until I helped find several flaky power supplies that would otherwise have wreaked havoc. I made some converts.

 

[Phog Allen]

I'm not military, but the only thing I'm aware of is that some bases seem to use delta/delta instead of wye/delta. It's probably bringing coal to Newcastle, but delta/delta requires a single transformer to be connected between two phases for single phase, and wye/delta requires a single transformer to be connected from phase to ground for single phase. Yes, I know you can get single phase out of a bank of transformers, but this is is just to simplify things for the sake of discussion.

There is a critter known as corner grounded three-wire delta service. In this three-phase power configuration, one of the phases is connected to ground. Mind, you that's the only connection to ground, otherwise you'd have a short-circuit. With corner grounded three-wire delta, you get three-phase voltage between phases, but measuring phase to ground, one of the voltages will show zero (because it's connected to ground). Some utilities use this instead of three-wire delta because it prevents crazy voltages in respect to ground; others don't.

Three-wire delta service has three-phase voltages between phases, but since no part is connected to ground, you can have anything from phase to ground. And when I mean anything, I mean 1,000 volts or more. The one time, when I was green, that I tried to measure it, it was 1,300v+ and no, that meter didn't go to the junk pile. That's also one reason we use lineman's gloves throughout and not those dinky thin meterman's gloves: You never quite know what you'll run into.

You would be surprised at how many electricians cannot or refuse outright to understand corner grounded delta systems. More commonly called grounded B phase by old timers. B phase is always the grounded phase in these systems according to code. I won't go into it here because it would invariably confuse someone who doesn't deal with it(we do at our work/old buildings with 480v grounded B distribution) but suffice it to say the grounded B phase is NOT a neutral. I have had so many guys refuse to understand this is a fully functional phase conductor. Then when you finally get them to understand that, they want to put a fuse in that leg! Read NEC 240.22 concerning grounded conductors and over current devises. Anyway, good to see someone who knows these systems. Mostly lost knowledge on the job these days.

 

[StillShaving]

Thanks for clarifying that a line splitter is needed to use a clamp on amp meter. I did not think there was enough of a stray magnetic field to measure in a standard wire jacket. But even with one conductor isolated seems that the magnetic field should weaken in portion to distance away from the conductor making it difficult for the clamp on meter to really tell what is going on, since it will not always be attached at exactly the same position relative its distance from the wire...but perhaps it is relying on precisely knowing the size of its clamp opening and counting on the field radiating outward as a uniform cylinder and calculating based on that.

 

[Phog Allen]

Stillshaving, remember, these inductive amp readers are not exact to the nose measuring tools. But they are very close. The line splitter should be installed as shown in the photo. Close as possible to the source which in this case is the receptacle. I don't know if the open nose of the T5 would slip around the openings or not but most clamps will physically fit. From what I have seen online they are less than twenty dollars so not a huge investment. The only other option is to open up the equipment that is plugged in and try to place the clamp around a single conductor inside somewhere. A less than ideal situation since you now going to be as close as possible to the live working components which adds a big safety issue. Besides, it is pain in the bum to do it. The line splitter makes it easy.

 

[Phog Allen]

Gents, after a lot of time spent scouring the web for reviews, tear downs, and real world experiences, I made a decision. Really, it was almost no choice. What I finally settled upon was the Greenlee 510a.

Good looking piece of kit, yes? While this is branded Greenlee it is actually made by a Brymen. A very reputable manufacturer of electronic and electrical test equipment in Taiwan. This would be labeled a BM257 and wear a red holster if sold under their own name. I suspect they do much more business as an ODM(original design manufacturer) for brands than they do under their own label. The BM257 has a pretty rock solid reputation amongst hobbyists and a good many electronics pros if I am reading things correctly at the electronics and tool blogs. Very popular multimeter.

My other choice was to go cheap right now with the Klein MM6000 being discounted to nearly $90 by several Amazon sources or full on with a $350 and up Fluke model. I will tell you I was a hairs breadth from pushing the 'buy' button for a Fluke.

I have wanted to source the Greenlee version for awhile since it comes with Prime shipping at Amazon and a genuine U.S. distribution limited lifetime warranty from Greenlee. It is why it is always a bit more expensive than the Brymen brand. Greenlee is the U.S. distribution source for Brymen and from what I understand Brymen is very loyal to their distributors and do not undercut them by allowing their own branded products into the same market. This is actually a refreshing change from most cutthroat practices out there and I say good on Brymen for being a stalwart about it.

Anyroad, I chucked it my Amazon cart on Thursday or Friday at $168 and change. Too much from what I have seen others post concerning prices. They always list about 135-145USD on Amazon. I have never been able to make this deal so I waited. The next day Amazon lowered the price by $25! Wow. This may be as good as it gets I thought. But, always being on the uptick side of these things I hoped maybe patience would pay off this time and I would get the lowering cart price. Last night I decided to check the cart again and was greeted by this' 'an item in your shopping cart has changed price'. Hmm. I have seen this and those who shop Amazon know it happens a lot but usually I simply miss the boat on price reductions. Well what do you know? They lowered the price to $130.03! Now we are talking. I verily smashed the buy button and it is on its way to me as I type. I was not going to fool around. The 257 usually runs around 115-125 from TME in Europe(Poland I think) and by the time you add carriage and customs, well you get the idea. So, I will post up some photos when it arrives to give an idea of size and how the test leads look. Usually test leads are an area where all manufacturers choose to cut corners. Flexible, silicone type leads are a good investment. We shall see.

 

[StillShaving]

Interesting, the Greenlee DM-510A has already moved back up to $143. Thanks for highlighting the Klein MM6000, it looks to have more than enough capability for me (I need to understand and research more before committing to any specific purchase); at least a better choice than the Fluke 17B+ which is a built-in-Asia for the Asian market, with no warranty in US/Europe.

 

[Phog Allen]

Stillshaving, indeed Amazon lists it as $143 and change when you search it out. This was I believe, a bait-you-into-buying deal with me. And I am happy to have taken the bait. Usually the price will drop to whatever this deal is they chuck at you in your cart. I don't know if it appeared that way or not but when I searched it out again later I found the same price you did.

The Klein MM6000 is a VERY interesting item. If I could only find out who makes the meter for them and really, some hands on reviews, I would have bought it if not for the price drop on the Greenlee. I have seen one of the other models in their line dissected online and the circuit board was marked Finest MM2000 1012. The MM2000 was the Klein model and the guys who diessected it assumed the manufacturer was Fine Instruments Corp. I know nothing of them but they seem to have a history of being a ODM. Here is a link someone provided Finest. As you can see, nothing there looks like the MM2000 but that doesn't mean much. Most of these companies can build anything you want. HTH.

 

[StillShaving]

Interesting information, since the MM2200 is advertised as being made in america. About which I have little doubt since Fine Instruments Corporation located in South Korea could transfer the parts list and CAD files for the PCB, letting Klein contract with a local electronics builder for the final product. A form of reverse out-sourcing.

 

[Phog Allen]

Stillshaving, that is interesting about the MM2200. I knew the MM5000/6000 were being touted and labeled as made in USA 'of imported and domestic parts' or similar but I was not aware the 2000 series was. I figure they were having the meter boards made overseas and then possible assembled here. One gent on eevblog forum allowed as how he'd read somewhere that Klein had acquired a plastics moulding company a few years ago and he speculated maybe the soft outside cases were being made here for the USA part of it. In any event there seems to be much more online information regarding the 2000/2200 meters than the 5/6000 series. The Greenlee arrives today and I am kind of jazzed to see it firsthand.

 

[StillShaving]

Phog Allen, I should correct my statement about the MM2200. The MM6000 is made in USA, while the MM2300 is not (looks like the 2000/2200 is no longer current production). Sorry to plant that seed of doubt, there are just too many models and pictures to look at.

I hope the Greenlee will meet your expectations. I am still holding off on making a purchase for now. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and feedback here.

 

[dpm802]

I have a Beckman DMM that I bought around 1983 and it served me well until about 5 years ago when one of the lead inputs broke off.
I can't bear to throw this meter away, but I don't know how to fix it.

The meter that I do use is one of RadioShack's better DMMs that I got around 1998.
It was clearance-priced and I picked it up for a song.
It has a nice hard-shell case, and I also got the curly-leads as an after-market add-on.

My all-time favorite meter was the Simpson 260 that we used in the Navy.
It is an analogue unit, but it was rock-solid construction and could take a good beating and still come back for more.
I had a RadioShack knock-off of the 260 that worked well for home and auto tasks.
I sold it at a Ham-fest and I've been kicking myself ever since for letting it go.

I've also got a pocket-sized DMM that belonged to my father.
Its not a very good meter, but I can't get over the sentimental value.

 

[sfeile]

I am not even close to being an electrician, but I do have some knowledge. I used to do industrial mechanics and maintenance. Mainly my electrical duties only involved basic things like changing/testing/rebuilding fuses, replacing starters and sensors, wiring single and 3 phase motors... That kind of thing.
Anything more involved was left to an actual electrician.

Having recently been laid off, and eligible for the trade adjustment assistance, I am thinking of going to school for electrician.

Since there is a great amount of knowledge in this thread, I wanted to ask an opinion on the meter that I have. It has done well for me for the last 12 or so years, but should I just suck it up and upgrade? Or will this continue to do what I need until I figure out what I'm going to specialize in. (Trying to decide if I want to go the lineman route, or stay inside and go industrial electronics.)

This is what I have currently.

 

[hotwheels]

I have an expensive Fluke in my tool kit, but wanted in addition an inexpensive meter I can keep in my car without worrying about it getting broken or stolen. So I got a DMiotech Smart V, which is pretty good considering its price. It can be found for under $30 now.

 

[Raissermesser]

Since there is a great amount of knowledge in this thread, I wanted to ask an opinion on the meter that I have. It has done well for me for the last 12 or so years, but should I just suck it up and upgrade? Or will this continue to do what I need until I figure out what I'm going to specialize in. (Trying to decide if I want to go the lineman route, or stay inside and go industrial electronics.)

I don't have any opinion, good or bad, about your meter, but my thought is if you're looking at taking classes to become an electrician, you might want to hold off and see if it's approved by your instructors. Besides, education is expensive and a single textbook can cost more than a Fluke.

FWIW, there's journeyman lineman and there's electricians, but you can become a journeyman lineman and still not have the credentials to be a licensed electrician. I work at a utility, and know about banking transformers and wiring meter bases, but I'm not an electrician. The one time I thought about taking courses, the local trade school didn't offer it. Go figure.

OTOH, they didn't offer classes for journeyman linemen, either. A journeyman lineman works distribution from the primary voltage lines to the secondary voltage at the meter base. A journeyman lineman learns to climb a pole; to work from a bucket; to hang a transformer; to work with underground services and padmount and vault transformers. You work with voltages as low as 120 up to 46,000. You learn about how to operate reclosers, both OCRs and electronic; how to re-fuse a cutout; how to clear trees and limbs off power lines; how to hoist, pull, and splice conductor; and all the other things involved in power distribution. It's hot as blazes in the summer and colder than ice in the winter, and when everyone else is hunkered down weathering out a storm and authorities are advising everyone to stay put, you're going to work. And the new requirements for PPE - fire retardant wear underneath heavy rubber sleeves and tops of your lineman's gloves - makes it even hotter.*

You're on call 24/7; getting up at 0 dark 30 is standard; and your kids learn to say "Oh no!" when the phone rings during a storm. It's dangerous, though anything about electricity is. It also gets into your blood, and old retired linemen sometimes offer assistance in a big outage. It's just one of those things you need to go into eyes wide open.

*I started in the days when uniforms were polyester blend, and when we first went to fire retardant wear, we were fatalistic about it, thinking a primary voltage arc at distribution fault currents and flaming oil wouldn't care if your clothes were fire retardant or not. But fire retardant wear does work, and is on reason I'm not called "Stubby" or "deceased." Always wear your PPE. Always.

 

[sfeile]

I don't have any opinion, good or bad, about your meter, but my thought is if you're looking at taking classes to become an electrician, you might want to hold off and see if it's approved by your instructors. Besides, education is expensive and a single textbook can cost more than a Fluke.

FWIW, there's journeyman lineman and there's electricians, but you can become a journeyman lineman and still not have the credentials to be a licensed electrician. I work at a utility, and know about banking transformers and wiring meter bases, but I'm not an electrician. The one time I thought about taking courses, the local trade school didn't offer it. Go figure.

OTOH, they didn't offer classes for journeyman linemen, either. A journeyman lineman works distribution from the primary voltage lines to the secondary voltage at the meter base. A journeyman lineman learns to climb a pole; to work from a bucket; to hang a transformer; to work with underground services and padmount and vault transformers. You work with voltages as low as 120 up to 46,000. You learn about how to operate reclosers, both OCRs and electronic; how to re-fuse a cutout; how to clear trees and limbs off power lines; how to hoist, pull, and splice conductor; and all the other things involved in power distribution. It's hot as blazes in the summer and colder than ice in the winter, and when everyone else is hunkered down weathering out a storm and authorities are advising everyone to stay put, you're going to work. And the new requirements for PPE - fire retardant wear underneath heavy rubber sleeves and tops of your lineman's gloves - makes it even hotter.*

You're on call 24/7; getting up at 0 dark 30 is standard; and your kids learn to say "Oh no!" when the phone rings during a storm. It's dangerous, though anything about electricity is. It also gets into your blood, and old retired linemen sometimes offer assistance in a big outage. It's just one of those things you need to go into eyes wide open.

*I started in the days when uniforms were polyester blend, and when we first went to fire retardant wear, we were fatalistic about it, thinking a primary voltage arc at distribution fault currents and flaming oil wouldn't care if your clothes were fire retardant or not. But fire retardant wear does work, and is on reason I'm not called "Stubby" or "deceased." Always wear your PPE. Always.

Lineman would be right up my alley. I was a journeyman iron worker for 15 years, done a lot of heavy industrial mechanics/construction, lots of nasty weather, climbed and cut down trees, seismic drilling, and a few more things... so a lot of that is already in the blood.

Problem is, I looked a little more into the TAA program, and it looks like what they will pay for is a 2 year course. Since lineman is more of an apprenticeship, I'm not sure if it will qualify. The closest course I found to me, is for residential and industrial electrician.

Gonna do a little more digging, but it looks like that is going to have to be my route for now. Then maybe with the background, I can get into an apprenticeship.

 

[Phog Allen]

More good posts. Thanks Raissermesser for your contributions. Indeed, while electrical theory is the same, distribution and facilities electrical work occupy two different parameters, and code books, in the working world. Just as Raissermesser points out that lineman is not necessarily qualified to be an electrician, the electrician is most certainly not qualified to work distribution. There are individuals who are trained in both but usually you are working for a company that does one or the other.

Back to the subject to hand. The little Greenlee is neat. I am juicing it up tonight with fresh batteries and will muck around with a bit. I am keen to test its continuity beeper to see if it latches well and has a crisp clear and LOUD sound. As you age your ears take a beating and hearing a continuity test in a noisy room is a must. This is a handly size little bugger and will fit in any took kit you could imagine. Very portable. This would fit nicely in the electricians tool bag or case, a radio control hobby operator, electronics technician, and even the mechanics kit. It may not have the out and out specific accuracy for electronics but as part of a portable lab or troubleshooting kit, it would be great I would think. More later and hopefully some photos.