Finest JNAT Finisher

[Devonmoonshire]

Merry Christmas All. As we all Know I am an Arkie Honer myself as far as finishing goes. I am wanting to expand and experiment with other stones though now since I have reached the pinnacle of perfection on my current progression.

What I am looking for is advice on which stone by name and JNAT Grade I should be looking for in order to buy a truly hard and great finishing stone in the JNAT Category, including which Nagura to get along with it.

It will be a little while, perhaps a month or so before I will be able to afford one as I am under tne impression that they are incredibly expensive to get a Stone and Nagura stone to make this happen.

Any and all suggestions will be very welcome my Friends.

Wishing you all an incredibly happy and merry holiday season my Friends.

Sincerely;
Nate

 

[Gamma]

There is no one single answer to that question.

there is no Jnat, by name - that can be said to be finer or coarser just beacause of what mine it came from.

The LV system is flawed, subjective and often misused.

The finest stone -- or, I suspect you mean the stone that will leave the finest edge....

Is the one you get along with best.
I do best with the hardest stones that also have a ridiculously high abrasive content.
I do not suggest that everyone else will get along with those stones all that welll all the time.


And Jnats do not have to be incredibly expensive.

 

[Devonmoonshire]

There is no one single answer to that question.

there is no Jnat, by name - that can be said to be finer or coarser just beacause of what mine it came from.

The LV system is flawed, subjective and often misused.

The finest stone -- or, I suspect you mean the stone that will leave the finest edge....

Is the one you get along with best.
I do best with the hardest stones that also have a ridiculously high abrasive content.
I do not suggest that everyone else will get along with those stones all that welll all the time.


And Jnats do not have to be incredibly expensive.

I was afraid that might be the response

I am really just looking for any of the JNAT Stones that are finer than the Black Hard Arkansas I have already, or even one that can be used with a slurry progression that might lead to an even smoother edge than I already get with the Arkie. Something to either do a full progression on or that can be used to further refine the edge after the Arkansas.

 

[SliceOfLife]

I have an extremely hard and fine Jnat I've used for years. I have an even harder and slightly less fine Jnat I've used for years. I have a couple softer and slightly less fine Jnat (one of which I've used for years). They are all great razor finishers. In fact the second one and one of the last pair are probably "better" finishers than the finest one by most peoples standards.

Don't get caught up looking for the hardest, finest stone. Yes, you do need a very fine stone, and yes, for razor finishing you're probably also looking for one harder than average. But your best bet will probably be to just tell a vendor who sells to razor honers and understands their needs that you are looking for an extremely high quality razor finishing hone. Tell him a budget and where you're willing to compromise to meet it (will you take an odd shaped stone, a very thin stone, a palm-sized stone vs a bench stone, etc).

As for Nagura, I'd get a Tomo and possibly a Mejiro. It really depends what you want to do with it and the traits of your stones. I only rarely use my Nagura with my Jnats anymore (Only the Tomo on two stones and rarely even the Tomo on the other two), the exception being when I want to do a full Nagura progression.

 

[buca3152]

I have a very hard and fine ozuku, i have also seen and used a few others, the one I have was finer than those. I also have a vintage unstamped so therefore un named mine stone that I use with a nakayama kiita tomo that just keeps breaking and breaking and breaking. This stone is neither harder nor finer than the ozuku but delivers a better edge, other tomos work very well, but the stone to tomo combo is the right combo. so its more than hard or fine only.

 

[Brooksie967]

There isn't much more to be said that what has already been said. As mentioned, the stone that works best for you is the best finisher. Not everyone gets along with ultra hard stones - they can be very difficult to use.

 

[Gamma]

I was afraid that might be the response

I am really just looking for any of the JNAT Stones that are finer than the Black Hard Arkansas I have already, or even one that can be used with a slurry progression that might lead to an even smoother edge than I already get with the Arkie. Something to either do a full progression on or that can be used to further refine the edge after the Arkansas.

I don't know your stone, so it would be impossible to say - objectively, what might be a good direction.
Best thing to do, IMO - is to find a stone you won't cry over paying for - being sold by someone that has honed razors on it and isn't looking to offload a turd they got stuck with.

A great Ark is hard to beat as a finisher - the differences at the top level of finishers is incremental sometimes and hard to pin down exactly.
If your Ark is just a plain old black Ark, not one in the super hard class - then you're probably not going to have too hard a time finding a Jnat that will, at least, make you happy.
If you do have a top-flight super hard Ark (Trans/Black Trans/SB/etc.) - your work is cut out for you.

Everyone is different though, and a lot has to do with you. If you get along better with the Jnat in question than you do with the Ark - then that will help move things along.

 

[Devonmoonshire]

I have an extremely hard and fine Jnat I've used for years. I have an even harder and slightly less fine Jnat I've used for years. I have a couple softer and slightly less fine Jnat (one of which I've used for years). They are all great razor finishers. In fact the second one and one of the last pair are probably "better" finishers than the finest one by most peoples standards.

Don't get caught up looking for the hardest, finest stone. Yes, you do need a very fine stone, and yes, for razor finishing you're probably also looking for one harder than average. But your best bet will probably be to just tell a vendor who sells to razor honers and understands their needs that you are looking for an extremely high quality razor finishing hone. Tell him a budget and where you're willing to compromise to meet it (will you take an odd shaped stone, a very thin stone, a palm-sized stone vs a bench stone, etc).

As for Nagura, I'd get a Tomo and possibly a Mejiro. It really depends what you want to do with it and the traits of your stones. I only rarely use my Nagura with my Jnats anymore (Only the Tomo on two stones and rarely even the Tomo on the other two), the exception being when I want to do a full Nagura progression.

I have a very hard and fine ozuku, i have also seen and used a few others, the one I have was finer than those. I also have a vintage unstamped so therefore un named mine stone that I use with a nakayama kiita tomo that just keeps breaking and breaking and breaking. This stone is neither harder nor finer than the ozuku but delivers a better edge, other tomos work very well, but the stone to tomo combo is the right combo. so its more than hard or fine only.

There isn't much more to be said that what has already been said. As mentioned, the stone that works best for you is the best finisher. Not everyone gets along with ultra hard stones - they can be very difficult to use.

I am very glad that I posted that I know nothing about JNAT stones because Y'all kept it very simple for me to understand.

Coming from a back ground of coarse to Ultra Fine and/or soft to Ultra Hard. Those two are the only two ways I know how to measure stones.

Correct me if I am wrong but it does sound like when it comes to the JNAT stones, Hardness/Softness and Coarseness/Fineness do not really apply much. It sound to me more like you really have to just match up the right Tomo/Nagura stone with the Honing Stone that you choose. Once the right combination of the two are found it pretty much comes together to make for a great edge regardless of the other features.


So now what I must do is locate a stone that I like and hopefully if the vendor knows what they are doing they will have matched a proper stone to go along with it.

So the next big question is.... Should the two be made of the same stone? Like I see with the sales of slates that come with slurry stones or the Coti's that come with slurry stones? Or is it more a case of two different stones that come together to make a good match?

 

[Devonmoonshire]

I don't know your stone, so it would be impossible to say - objectively, what might be a good direction.
Best thing to do, IMO - is to find a stone you won't cry over paying for - being sold by someone that has honed razors on it and isn't looking to offload a turd they got stuck with.

A great Ark is hard to beat as a finisher - the differences at the top level of finishers is incremental sometimes and hard to pin down exactly.
If your Ark is just a plain old black Ark, not one in the super hard class - then you're probably not going to have too hard a time finding a Jnat that will, at least, make you happy.
If you do have a top-flight super hard Ark (Trans/Black Trans/SB/etc.) - your work is cut out for you.

Everyone is different though, and a lot has to do with you. If you get along better with the Jnat in question than you do with the Ark - then that will help move things along.

I have to say that I am beginning to question the Hard Black Ark that I have, every other Ark I own has smoothed out and started taking on the classic mirror finish look of a truly magnificent Ark, this one remains kind of dull and it is definitely not smoothing out and taking on the mirror finish of my others. I got it from Woodcraft and it is branded "Pinnacle Black Arkansas" Kind of odd since I actually ordered a Surgical Black Arkansas. I know this much though, it is certainly the hardest stone I have ever seen. I have lapped and lapped and lapped this thing and it has flattened but not really smoothed much. Kinda strange really if you ask me.

I guess I am just wanting to explore another type of approach to honing and learn a new method.

 

[Brooksie967]

Maybe someone here will send you a few to play with? Maybe put a deposit down or something?

I know you can test stones from Alex and Takeshi from aframes as well as maksim from jns accept returns (pretty sure you just have to pay shipping ). But if you are about to drop big bucks on a stone why not make sure you love it before being committed.

 

[Doorsch]

So the next big question is.... Should the two be made of the same stone? Like I see with the sales of slates that come with slurry stones or the Coti's that come with slurry stones? Or is it more a case of two different stones that come together to make a good match?

Hehe...just had a little smile in my face reading youre sentences...surely with respect because these are the questions many other also had in their mind starting all this ;-)

Actually its a big fun game, nothing more nothing less...its like playing chemistry and mixing up liquids together...

You use a slurrystone, from that you create slurry and mix it up with pieces from the base stone...if the base stone is ultra hard you only get slurry from the slurry stone, are both stones equally hard probably from both the particles are coming, you use a ultra hard slurrystone the slurry will come from the base stone...the borders are not visible...pressure, hardness, movement...all that counts...and this makes it hard to tell what comes from what....you will never know anything until you did not try out...

I can underline youre statement, you have to find "a good match"....there are all kindsof variantions (Mikawa Naguras, Tomonaguras, etc) and combinations, no rules or wrong way. You need to try and see whats youre personal best way to go...

A proposal of a good vendor will help you very much going your own way.

 

[stoop]

Maksim has what looks to me to be a great source of tomonagura if you don't actually live in Japan (where domestic shipping and selection makes things less fearsome for price):

http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/tomo-nagura-extra/

Basically to me it sounds like for ~$40 you get what amounts to a nice soft kiita koppa.

 

[Gamma]

I guess I am just wanting to explore another type of approach to honing and learn a new method.

Sounds good to me. Jnats are fun. So are a lot of different types of hones.

 

[stoop]

(I was actually considering something similar myself; hardware stores here have these softer JNAT whetstones of lower grade for use in sharpening knives and cutlery, and they run $15-20. Seemed worth a try for use as a tomonagura.)

 

[Avenolpey]

Here is an example of an affordable Wakasa.
http://yhst-27988581933240.stores.yahoo.net/wakasa-natural-whetstone-8348g-83481136.html
Takeshi tests these to some degree. He rates this one as hard but not crazy hard and particle size is very fine. At 5.6x3 inches it is plenty of real estate for a finisher. He has lots of others around that price. Takeshi ships fast and if you email him he will give you more detail on selected stones.

 

[Devonmoonshire]

Very incredible information everyone. Thank you so much for the insight and recommendations. A Lot to absorb, learn and process in order to make a good choice my first time. So I will be scouring all the informative site's and just as I have always done, I will search until a specific stone strikes me as a Stand Out Winner. I use my gut in a lot of decisions in these cases and thus far it has not lead me wrong. So I am confident that with the abundant information here and on the recommended sites I should be able to find a truly great set of JNAT Greatness to start my learning curve with these beautiful stones.

Hoping everyone had a great day with their Families and wishing you All a Very Happy New Year

 

[Slash McCoy]

Looks like you are sorted out on the jnat. I just wanted to comment on the black arkie that is giving you problems. It could be that it is jsut so hard that it will not smooth out from the amount of honing you have done on it. You might try a progression of diamond pastes. Your lapped surface on those stones stays freshly lapped, including the scratch pattern left by lapping, for a long time. If you lapped with 2000 grit sandpaper then you have a stone that ought to give you equivelant to a 10k edge, but instead effectively has 2k surface grit. On less hard stones, you just hone a razor or two, or a kitchen knife, and bobs yer uncle. Blacks dont work-smooth very well.

You could also try relapping or I should say finishing on some 3u and 1u lapping film on glass. When the film wears out, loses most of its grit, add some diamond paste, or better yet some spray slurry.

 

[Gamma]

I have to say that I am beginning to question the Hard Black Ark that I have, every other Ark I own has smoothed out and started taking on the classic mirror finish look of a truly magnificent Ark, this one remains kind of dull and it is definitely not smoothing out and taking on the mirror finish of my others. I got it from Woodcraft and it is branded "Pinnacle Black Arkansas"

You are not the first person to complain about that exact stone from that source.

 

[Devonmoonshire]

Looks like you are sorted out on the jnat. I just wanted to comment on the black arkie that is giving you problems. It could be that it is jsut so hard that it will not smooth out from the amount of honing you have done on it. You might try a progression of diamond pastes. Your lapped surface on those stones stays freshly lapped, including the scratch pattern left by lapping, for a long time. If you lapped with 2000 grit sandpaper then you have a stone that ought to give you equivelant to a 10k edge, but instead effectively has 2k surface grit. On less hard stones, you just hone a razor or two, or a kitchen knife, and bobs yer uncle. Blacks dont work-smooth very well.

You could also try relapping or I should say finishing on some 3u and 1u lapping film on glass. When the film wears out, loses most of its grit, add some diamond paste, or better yet some spray slurry.

That is what I am thinking, I have been lapping this stone periodically doing a couple thousand laps with W/D sandpaper and it is starting to come around a little bit. It was completely Lucid when I first got it, now I can see a vague reflection in it when it is dry so that at least is progress. I plan on using some 50K Diamond Spray on it when I take my Kitchen Knives to it later next month and then see if it takes on more of a mirror finish. I really love the smooth feeling of these stones once they are truly broken in and the edge they give once they are is beyond compare for smoothness from anything I have ever used.

You are not the first person to complain about that exact stone from that source.

I don't doubt it my Friend, they really do not appear to know a lot about Arkansas stones at all. The price was right though and it is a Very Very Hard stone that will ultimately be like sliding across glass once I am done with it. It just takes an incredible amount of time and effort to get it there because they are so very hard.

 

[Steve56]

Maksim has what looks to me to be a great source of tomonagura if you don't actually live in Japan (where domestic shipping and selection makes things less fearsome for price):

http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/tomo-nagura-extra/

Basically to me it sounds like for ~$40 you get what amounts to a nice soft kiita koppa.

I have three, they're all good - for prefinishing razors or knives. The ones I have are pure, no lines, inclusions, etc. They put an amazing jigane/hagane finish on a laminated knife bevel. You might be able to get a decent shaving edge off these with good technique, but they are not IMO, razor finishers. You could also probably use them with clear water like a barber hone to maintain an edge, at least for a while as IIRC Max suggests.

I have not used them as naguras to finish a razor, but would guess - and this is a guess - that there would be better choices for most harder stones.

Stone sellers know what they have. You're not going to get a $40 Japanese razor finisher unless it is small and awkward or just slipped through somehow. It can be done, I had a $45 stone from a friend that came from Takeda-San, and it was as good a razor hone as you'd want. Problem was it being triangular, about 3 inches in width, with low corners. I had it cut into naguras. Rather than the nagura extra, I'd suggest the small shobu or even better, a $88 dollar Nakayama koppa from Takeda-San. I have two of these and they are like their smaller, cheaper, triangular brother, excellent stones. They are on the hard side.

Cheers, Steve