I am not sure if there are any espresso buffs out there but I am looking for a good starter machine. I know grinder is the most important thing which I have that covered. But after looking around online i just got over whelmed for the most part. My girlfriend has a Breville which makes solid espresso ( she also uses high quality Italian coffee). But most of the online stuff I find , they say Breville is watery garbage. I was also hearing good things about a Rancilio but a friend has it and I never had a good espresso from that machine. I was looking into Gaggia Classic but don't know if the 500 price range may be worth it. Any suggestions on a good starter machine? I only want something consistent and that gives a good froth.
Espresso help
- Thread starter ChrisG
- Start date
I've had a lot of luck with my Breville. It does "cheat" to some extent, however. The basket has only a single, small exit hole (as opposed to most baskets I've seen with a typical matrix of many holes). In my experience, however, it produced reliable, good espresso. You can get a Krupps basket of traditional make to use in the same brew head, and that worked well, too. I didn't notice a real difference, aside from the Breville basket preferring a coarser grind. For the record, I had the Die-Cast (800XL I think) model. VERY attractive machine, and it performed reliably. I sold it in favor of a DeLonghi because I wanted an automatic, and haven't found the DeLonghi to make espresso any better. Just easier 
The Gaggia Classic is an excellent machine. More traditional. You wouldn't be disappointed. Same for the Rancilio Silva. I believe you could eventually get a better pull out of these two machines down the road as you perfect your technique than you would out of the Breville, but the Breville is more forgiving.
Note: My experience with the Gaggia and Rancilio is second hand. I have friends with these machines, but I have owned the Breville. It's possible I see the others through rose-colored glasses as I haven't had to live with their quirks, whatever they may be.
The Gaggia Classic is an excellent machine. More traditional. You wouldn't be disappointed. Same for the Rancilio Silva. I believe you could eventually get a better pull out of these two machines down the road as you perfect your technique than you would out of the Breville, but the Breville is more forgiving.
Note: My experience with the Gaggia and Rancilio is second hand. I have friends with these machines, but I have owned the Breville. It's possible I see the others through rose-colored glasses as I haven't had to live with their quirks, whatever they may be.
Spend some time looking at all the info at coffeegeeks.com. It's a fantastic resource.
I went through numerous steam based thingees before I finally wised up and bought a E61 grouphead espresso machine. Mine is no longer available (Isomac Zaffiro) but it certainly generates great shots and although there's a slight delay in shifting to steaming skim milk, it all works for me. I couple it with a Cunhill Tranquilo ginder.
My next door neighbor stepped up from a Ranchilio Silva, which is indeed a great basic starter machine but can be somewhat finicky, to a higher end Quickmill Alexia. He and his wife have been very pleased with it coupled with the Rocky grinder he had all along.
We both trump any of the local baristas and most all we've sampled in big cities as well with what we're able to do with our equipment.
Bottom line from my knothole is to forgo the department store stuff and anything that uses pre-ground pods and pillows if you really want good espresso with great creama and excellent frothing capabilities. Go for a setup with a E61 grouphead.... nothing less. It'll be a bit more expensive to start with but the results and long term reliability will offset that. You won't regret it
I went through numerous steam based thingees before I finally wised up and bought a E61 grouphead espresso machine. Mine is no longer available (Isomac Zaffiro) but it certainly generates great shots and although there's a slight delay in shifting to steaming skim milk, it all works for me. I couple it with a Cunhill Tranquilo ginder.
My next door neighbor stepped up from a Ranchilio Silva, which is indeed a great basic starter machine but can be somewhat finicky, to a higher end Quickmill Alexia. He and his wife have been very pleased with it coupled with the Rocky grinder he had all along.
We both trump any of the local baristas and most all we've sampled in big cities as well with what we're able to do with our equipment.
Bottom line from my knothole is to forgo the department store stuff and anything that uses pre-ground pods and pillows if you really want good espresso with great creama and excellent frothing capabilities. Go for a setup with a E61 grouphead.... nothing less. It'll be a bit more expensive to start with but the results and long term reliability will offset that. You won't regret it
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- Thread starter
- #4
I found that site and it only made the confusion worsen. What is a E61 grouphead if you dont mind my asking? Edit: I see that these probably refer to the manual lever espresso machines. They are pretty pricey and truthfully i don't want to spend that much. I wanted to pay 500 tops for the machine if possible.
Spend some time looking at all the info at coffeegeeks.com. It's a fantastic resource.
I went through numerous steam based thingees before I finally wised up and bought a E61 grouphead espresso machine. Mine is no longer available (Isomac Zaffiro) but it certainly generates great shots and although there's a slight delay in shifting to steaming skim milk, it all works for me. I couple it with a Cunhill Tranquilo ginder.
My next door neighbor stepped up from a Ranchilio Silva, which is indeed a great basic starter machine but can be somewhat finicky, to a higher end Quickmill Alexia. He and his wife have been very pleased with it coupled with the Rocky grinder he had all along.
Bottom line from my knothole is to forgo the department store stuff and anything that uses pre-ground pods and pillows if you really want good espresso with great creama and excellent frothing capabilities. Go for a setup with a E61 grouphead.... nothing less. It'll be a bit more expensive to start with but the results and long term reliability will offset that. You won't regret it
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Read this series then: http://www.coffeegeek.com/guides/howtobuyanespressomachine
The E61 is a commercial grade component. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grouphead as well as the review of the machine I use http://www.coffeegeek.com/proreviews/detailed/isomaczaffiro which contains some E61 history.
If you're wanting to stay at $500 then look for a used Rancilio Silva so that you can also acquire a decent grinder within that budget. It doesn't have the E61 (which helps stabilize temperatures and aid consistent espresso shot extraction) but it is capable of solid performance. It is universally considered the minimum for a decent home espresso setup. It was what Mark Prince (owner of the coffeegeek site) recommended to me originally back in 2002. I went with the Zaffiro instead which was more money but also included a lot of the semi-pro/pro features missing on the Silvia.
The E61 is a commercial grade component. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grouphead as well as the review of the machine I use http://www.coffeegeek.com/proreviews/detailed/isomaczaffiro which contains some E61 history.
If you're wanting to stay at $500 then look for a used Rancilio Silva so that you can also acquire a decent grinder within that budget. It doesn't have the E61 (which helps stabilize temperatures and aid consistent espresso shot extraction) but it is capable of solid performance. It is universally considered the minimum for a decent home espresso setup. It was what Mark Prince (owner of the coffeegeek site) recommended to me originally back in 2002. I went with the Zaffiro instead which was more money but also included a lot of the semi-pro/pro features missing on the Silvia.
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- Thread starter
- #6
I was also hearing good things about a Rancilio but a friend has it and I never had a good espresso from that machine.
That's my point.... it takes extra care and dedication to dial things in properly to get decent results. Many give up too easily. My neighbor got good results but tired of the ritual required which is why he too went with a E61 machine.
Take a look around chriscoffee.com to get an idea of what such machines run now.
It's really a big line of demarcation between automatic pod based consumer things that put out swill and decent equipment that competes, if not surpasses, what you get from a coffeehouse/espresso bar. Unfortunately the price of entry into this later category has gone up unless you want to try the manual lever machines, old fashioned stovetop units and the like. They can produce great espresso but they're felt to be more difficult to master than even a Silvia.
Hi Bob,
I'll jump in here as I was where you are about a year ago. You ask a great and simple question. The problem is that the answer is complicated. I am no expert but I was able to glean a few things from my research. This is my understanding of the espresso world or what some call the dark side
I should tell you that I am not a coffee geek but I have been drinking coffee for over 40 years and have been home roasting green beans for over 10 years. I am sort of a do it yourself guy with the roasting equipment. I do not have a commercial roaster but used a popcorn popper to start then converted an old gas grill to roast. I have spent a lot of time on forums reading about coffee nirvana and the hype seems to be around home espresso machines. I have always wanted to try espresso but the cost kept me out. I am the only one in the house that drinks coffee and it is very difficult to justify such a huge expense to try something I was not sure I would like or use much.
I can not tell you how many hours I spent on the coffeegeek and home-barista websites researching espresso machines. Recommendations were all over the place based upon costs and type of drinks the owner usually makes.
Good straight espresso shots are hard to get right. They depend upon getting the following variables right and there is a small tolerance so it is easier to get it wrong and have a bad taste.
-Water temperature when it goes through the coffee
-Pressure of the water when it goes through the coffee
-Time it takes the water to go through the coffee (Function of grind size and consistency and coffee density in portafilter)
-Uniformity and density of the coffee in the portafilter, once ground it needs to be consistent in size and be compacted just right
-Freshly roasted coffee, usually less than two weeks old
-Good water
These variable are all related to one another and if you get even one wrong, the results can be undrinkable.
However, if you like milk based drinks then the quality of the espresso is not nearly so important as the milk masks the imperfections. This means you can get away with a less sophisticated machine or poor technique, read less expensive single boiler machine.
For me, I was able to categorize espresso machines into three classes.
1. Single boiler (Rancillo Silvia & Gaggia Classic best examples)
2. Heat exchanger Units (Lots of these, E61 available on some of these)
3. Double Boiler Units (Typically have E61)
Turns out that the price goes up as you move from 1 to 3. Features like the E61 group head start on 2 & 3.
Single boiler machines usually have small boilers and large temperature swings unless controlled with electronics. It is the temperature swings that cause poor tasting espresso. So it is all about temperature surfing and technique on these machines, long learning curve. small boiler means you have to change between steam function, requires hotter boiler, too hot for espresso, and youhave to wait to steam milk. Small boiler means it runs out of steam quickly. These are the most economical machines and are very common starter units. Most owners get upgrade fever and move on to HX Units or Double Boiler units.
HX units have water tubes that go through the boiler andheat up the water that is used to make the espresso. These units also have temperature swings but can be a bit more stable than single boiler units. They do have a learning curve. They have larger boilers and can steam more milk. They are more expensive than single boiler units. Some folks start with these machines in an attempt to avoid upgrade fever.
Double boiler units have one boiler dedicated to the water temperature for the espresso and the other boiler running much hotter to steam milk. These are the best of both worlds but are also the most expensive. If you are committed to espresso and have the funds, you can't go wrong here. All of the componenets are usually of a higher quality which means things like temperature and pressure do not vary much. Regardless of the consistency with the machine, the operator has much control over the quality of the espresso since the bean freshness, grind consistency and density of the coffee in the portafilter all affect the taste. this means to me that you can have $3,000 - $4,000 tied up in equipment and still make lousy espresso.
You are correct in that the grinders play a huge role in the taste and quality of the espresso. Coffee geek and home barista have recommendations and ongoing discussions about the right grinders. It is true that this is one area you do not want to skimp on. It is possible to match the quality of the espresso machine to the grinder. Trouble there is that if you decide to upgrade your espresso machine you will have to upgrade the grinder too.
I pondered long and hard about getting into espresso and at what entry level. I decided to start with an HX unit and a corresponding grinder (Super Jolly). I decided which features I wanted and established a list of possible espresso machines. Then I lurked on the forums, watching the buy/sell sections until I was able to find a used HX unit for about $500. I got mine for $550 and the wait was about 2 months. the grinder I found on Craigs list, had it shipped from about 1,500 miles away and then took it apart sanded, painted ande put new burrs in it. Ended up with about $350 tied up but will not need to upgrade unless I get real geeky about the espresso.
It took me about 6-8 months to get my technique down and be able to pull drinkable shots. I have never been able to pull the ultimate God shot. I do not make many milk based drinks but do like Americanos. The HX unit works for me and if I knew two years ago what I know now, I would have purchased a new HX unit with a couple additional features. I doubt that I will ever upgrade though as this one does all that I need.
If you get on the coffee geek or home barista forums and ask for some hands on time with someone, I am sure you will have someone offer to show you the ropes and introduce you to their machines and coffee. They are as friendly over on those forums as the people here.
I hope you find your adventure to the dark side as exciting and interesting as I have found mine. When you get an espresso machine, let me know I have an awesome coffee martini recipe that I will share.
Good Hunting!
Gary
home-barista.com
I'll jump in here as I was where you are about a year ago. You ask a great and simple question. The problem is that the answer is complicated. I am no expert but I was able to glean a few things from my research. This is my understanding of the espresso world or what some call the dark side
I should tell you that I am not a coffee geek but I have been drinking coffee for over 40 years and have been home roasting green beans for over 10 years. I am sort of a do it yourself guy with the roasting equipment. I do not have a commercial roaster but used a popcorn popper to start then converted an old gas grill to roast. I have spent a lot of time on forums reading about coffee nirvana and the hype seems to be around home espresso machines. I have always wanted to try espresso but the cost kept me out. I am the only one in the house that drinks coffee and it is very difficult to justify such a huge expense to try something I was not sure I would like or use much.
I can not tell you how many hours I spent on the coffeegeek and home-barista websites researching espresso machines. Recommendations were all over the place based upon costs and type of drinks the owner usually makes.
Good straight espresso shots are hard to get right. They depend upon getting the following variables right and there is a small tolerance so it is easier to get it wrong and have a bad taste.
-Water temperature when it goes through the coffee
-Pressure of the water when it goes through the coffee
-Time it takes the water to go through the coffee (Function of grind size and consistency and coffee density in portafilter)
-Uniformity and density of the coffee in the portafilter, once ground it needs to be consistent in size and be compacted just right
-Freshly roasted coffee, usually less than two weeks old
-Good water
These variable are all related to one another and if you get even one wrong, the results can be undrinkable.
However, if you like milk based drinks then the quality of the espresso is not nearly so important as the milk masks the imperfections. This means you can get away with a less sophisticated machine or poor technique, read less expensive single boiler machine.
For me, I was able to categorize espresso machines into three classes.
1. Single boiler (Rancillo Silvia & Gaggia Classic best examples)
2. Heat exchanger Units (Lots of these, E61 available on some of these)
3. Double Boiler Units (Typically have E61)
Turns out that the price goes up as you move from 1 to 3. Features like the E61 group head start on 2 & 3.
Single boiler machines usually have small boilers and large temperature swings unless controlled with electronics. It is the temperature swings that cause poor tasting espresso. So it is all about temperature surfing and technique on these machines, long learning curve. small boiler means you have to change between steam function, requires hotter boiler, too hot for espresso, and youhave to wait to steam milk. Small boiler means it runs out of steam quickly. These are the most economical machines and are very common starter units. Most owners get upgrade fever and move on to HX Units or Double Boiler units.
HX units have water tubes that go through the boiler andheat up the water that is used to make the espresso. These units also have temperature swings but can be a bit more stable than single boiler units. They do have a learning curve. They have larger boilers and can steam more milk. They are more expensive than single boiler units. Some folks start with these machines in an attempt to avoid upgrade fever.
Double boiler units have one boiler dedicated to the water temperature for the espresso and the other boiler running much hotter to steam milk. These are the best of both worlds but are also the most expensive. If you are committed to espresso and have the funds, you can't go wrong here. All of the componenets are usually of a higher quality which means things like temperature and pressure do not vary much. Regardless of the consistency with the machine, the operator has much control over the quality of the espresso since the bean freshness, grind consistency and density of the coffee in the portafilter all affect the taste. this means to me that you can have $3,000 - $4,000 tied up in equipment and still make lousy espresso.
You are correct in that the grinders play a huge role in the taste and quality of the espresso. Coffee geek and home barista have recommendations and ongoing discussions about the right grinders. It is true that this is one area you do not want to skimp on. It is possible to match the quality of the espresso machine to the grinder. Trouble there is that if you decide to upgrade your espresso machine you will have to upgrade the grinder too.
I pondered long and hard about getting into espresso and at what entry level. I decided to start with an HX unit and a corresponding grinder (Super Jolly). I decided which features I wanted and established a list of possible espresso machines. Then I lurked on the forums, watching the buy/sell sections until I was able to find a used HX unit for about $500. I got mine for $550 and the wait was about 2 months. the grinder I found on Craigs list, had it shipped from about 1,500 miles away and then took it apart sanded, painted ande put new burrs in it. Ended up with about $350 tied up but will not need to upgrade unless I get real geeky about the espresso.
It took me about 6-8 months to get my technique down and be able to pull drinkable shots. I have never been able to pull the ultimate God shot. I do not make many milk based drinks but do like Americanos. The HX unit works for me and if I knew two years ago what I know now, I would have purchased a new HX unit with a couple additional features. I doubt that I will ever upgrade though as this one does all that I need.
If you get on the coffee geek or home barista forums and ask for some hands on time with someone, I am sure you will have someone offer to show you the ropes and introduce you to their machines and coffee. They are as friendly over on those forums as the people here.
I hope you find your adventure to the dark side as exciting and interesting as I have found mine. When you get an espresso machine, let me know I have an awesome coffee martini recipe that I will share.
Good Hunting!
Gary
home-barista.com
I have to put my 2c in defense of the Sylvia. I had the machine for the last 5 years and I have nothing but praise for it. It has to be matched with a good grinder, Rocky or better. Commercial grinders do not do it for Sylvia. Other than that if you find a good source of beans, not the stale supermarket variety you will not regret it.
Happy hunting!
Michael
Happy hunting!
Michael
All the above are great suggestions.I would add that you buy the machine in an actual store ,not online,in case it breaks,which it happens , otherwise you'll have to pay shipping and have to wait . Remember, it all depends on the grinding.
- Thread starter
- #12
Truth be told I can't find any stores close to me other than Williams Sonoma and Macy's that have Espresso Machines.
IMHO, the best espresso is stovetop (double pressure boiler). I grew up on it and of course graduated to a side of Sambucca once old enough. I'm sure there is no guess to my nationality. I have two boilers- a three shot and a twelve shot..small one for just me, big one for when guests are here. They cost $5-$10 tops for the smaller one. What's the harm in trying? And it couldn't be easier to use and clean. Hope you find your espresso nirvana!
I have owned a Le'Lit machine for the past year, and it is fantastic. I am not a technical expert but I know good coffee and this machine has given my wife and me high quality espresso on a daily basis. We bought ours at 1st Line Coffee:
http://www.1st-line.com/machines/home_mod/lelit/PL041.htm
I checked and it looks like they are selling the new version of the machine we have for $379.95 with free shipping-A great price for a great machine, it has a lot of the features of higher end machines for a much lower price. It is really comparable to a Rancilio Silva from what I have read-
And the people at 1st Line Coffee have been great to deal with, we had a couple of minor issues (user error, no machine issues) early on and they were extremely helpful-
EDIT-I was incorrect above, 1st Line is selling the Le'Lit PL041 which is what I have and not the newer model (the PL051). The one to get is the PL041 because it has a 3 way solenoid valve (which not many machines at this price point have), whereas the newer PL051 will not have a 3 way solenoid valve (1st Line won't even be carrying it for that reason, they will continue to sell the PL041).
http://www.1st-line.com/machines/home_mod/lelit/PL041.htm
I checked and it looks like they are selling the new version of the machine we have for $379.95 with free shipping-A great price for a great machine, it has a lot of the features of higher end machines for a much lower price. It is really comparable to a Rancilio Silva from what I have read-
And the people at 1st Line Coffee have been great to deal with, we had a couple of minor issues (user error, no machine issues) early on and they were extremely helpful-
EDIT-I was incorrect above, 1st Line is selling the Le'Lit PL041 which is what I have and not the newer model (the PL051). The one to get is the PL041 because it has a 3 way solenoid valve (which not many machines at this price point have), whereas the newer PL051 will not have a 3 way solenoid valve (1st Line won't even be carrying it for that reason, they will continue to sell the PL041).
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- Thread starter
- #16
Hmm, i may check it out then. Any brand in particular worth looking into that you may recommend?
I really like the results and ease of use from the Saeco SuperAutomatic machines. With the summer months coming up, you may want to try making one of my favorite hot weather drinks, the espress Shakerato. The first one I ever tried was in Siena, Tuscany and I've been hooked ever since...
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swfZ5x0JZc8&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swfZ5x0JZc8&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]
As the US dollar has weakened over the years, the price of the Rancilio Silvia, that stalwart recommendation of so many coffee forums, has become too high to really recommend it relative to its shot quality. I have had one for years, and finally got sick enough with its quirks to add a PID controller. It makes wicked, consistent shots, but at the total price point you are better off looking elsewhere.
Unfortunately, really good espresso machines are freaking expensive, and they all have their quirks. Some of the Quickmill machines are nice, Expobar, and La Spaziale as well. Give some thought to your likes (straight shot guy? Milk drink aficionado?) and poke around the huge resources available on the web for information.
That being said, the usual recommendation is to spend your $$ on a quality grinder first, since a great espresso machine without a proper grind to feed it is a waste.
Good luck, and keep us posted.
Unfortunately, really good espresso machines are freaking expensive, and they all have their quirks. Some of the Quickmill machines are nice, Expobar, and La Spaziale as well. Give some thought to your likes (straight shot guy? Milk drink aficionado?) and poke around the huge resources available on the web for information.
That being said, the usual recommendation is to spend your $$ on a quality grinder first, since a great espresso machine without a proper grind to feed it is a waste.
Good luck, and keep us posted.
- Thread starter
- #19
Truth be told I came to my senses. I need to buy a home and spending 500 plus on a machine at the moment should not be my top priority. I did end up buying the stovetop espresso maker as suggested. What I am curios about is, do I need a special sort of grind for one of these like an espresso machine? Does it require fine? Course? etc.
What kind of grinder did you get? And the friend who had a Silvia, what kind of grinder did he have and what was his technique when he made you espresso?
