Escher/Thuri/Achonite

[RobertScalchi]

Initial flattening of a translucent ark is a pain, yes. But it only needs to be done once. Occasional reconditioning of the surface is a breeze.

I don't know whether balsa edges last less long. Maybe? But the advice to hit the balsa after every shave is, I think, more about 0.1 micron diamond being a very tiny effect, so you don't want to give it more than one shave's worth of wear to deal with.

For me, edges lasting longer has come with two things:

Shaving technique. Specifically, really, truly using a low angle everywhere on your face, no exceptions. It's not easy to do, and takes a lot of practice. At least it did for me.

Getting the bevel set locked in and perfect. I know you can barely turn your head around here without hearing about how important a good bevel set is, but that's because it's so overwhelmingly true. For longevity, a perfect bevel set leads to an edge with no disturbances of the kind that grow into the kind of thing that can diminish your shave after a few passes. progression from 12k on up is .50 micron balsa. Then .25 micron balsa. Then .01 mucron balsa. 60 trailing strop strokes with 5 x strokes in pull/push direction every 15 to 20 stroked on each abrasive micron. Then I linen and Latigo or cordavan leather strop for 50 on each.

Initial flattening of a translucent ark is a pain, yes. But it only needs to be done once. Occasional reconditioning of the surface is a breeze.

I don't know whether balsa edges last less long. Maybe? But the advice to hit the balsa after every shave is, I think, more about 0.1 micron diamond being a very tiny effect, so you don't want to give it more than one shave's worth of wear to deal with.

For me, edges lasting longer has come with two things:

Shaving technique. Specifically, really, truly using a low angle everywhere on your face, no exceptions. It's not easy to do, and takes a lot of practice. At least it did for me.

Getting the bevel set locked in and perfect. I know you can barely turn your head around here without hearing about how important a good bevel set is, but that's because it's so overwhelmingly true. For longevity, a perfect bevel set leads to an edge with no disturbances of the kind that grow into the kind of thing that can diminish your shave after a few passes.

My maintence progression for each razor is .50 micron balsa. Then .25 micron balsa. Then 0.

1 micron balsa. 60 trailing strop strokes with 5 x strokes in pull/push direction every 15 to 20 stroked on each abrasive micron. Then I linen and Latigo or cordavan leather strop for 50 on each. My pressure and stroke is adequate for each balsa. Half the weight of razor by feel of edge vertically as suggested by forum members here until performance is felt improved. Then I only maintain edge from 0.1 micron on forward.

Coming back around to bevel setting and spine/bevel relation. I have 30 razor. Most vintage and used. Some required spine/bevel correcting since the bevel was too shallow at the heel and too steep at the toe. So I beveled both as even as possible on the 1k Norton first thing. Some of my razors have uneven imperfect bevels in certain areas of the heel/toe in relation to one another. All are great even shavers from heel to toe however. (Probably due to the higher 8k-12k progressions and balsa progressions.) O push pull cut from heel to toe after setting bevels to test which area of the blade may be sharper or duller and revise from there before moving to the next stone. But I think you have a very valid point about perfect bevel relation and sharpness longevity. The razors that have minimal bevel/spine wear and are set perfectly even in relation to one another and have shallower bevels shave like a dream. Especially off a balsa progression.

 

[RobertScalchi]

Yeah, it's work. Lotta people make more out of it than it really is. But, it's definitely work and it's harder to lap a Translucent Ark than just about anything else of an equal size. Nature of the beast sorta thing.

I've had many stones from Dans. All were good.

Welcome to the world of honing. One thing though, lotta guys chase finishers when they really should be chasing bevel-set stones and skills. No one wants to hear or believe that their bevels are 'off', or could stand improvement though. Factually, most sharpness is developed pre-8k... so, yeah... finishers are cute and all but the ground work is where the real game is.

Swaty stones were synthetic barber hones.
Barber's Delight hones were natural, made by Escher. Two different things.
Most traditional Barber hones are not so fine, many are deteriorated, some need restoration.
An Escher Barbers Delight is a nice finisher, lotta guys love 'em. But they're not a "Barber Hone" in the conventional sense.

so I don't know what I don't know.
Yep, no one does. But on the internet.... some people do seem to know what they really don't know.

But like you said just looking at the composition of them. They look like some form of slate and not refined finishers. Just meant for a 5 to 10 pass touch up I would think?

If you are talking about the Achonite, they are synthetic slabs, probably baked, and impregnated with some sorts of abrasives. They are not known to be a fine stone, even when it is in good shape. They were designed to make a tugging edge cut, not much more than that. A lot of Barber hones fall in this class.

Typically, if sharpness is falling off during a shave, or after a couple/few shaves - the bevel-set efforts need improvement.

I guess any wear on any edge is going to cause 'fade' to some degree;like a good DE blades shaves differently on the 3rd time than it did the 1st time.
But - well honed edges finished on Abrasive Compounds can last a long time without needing to be refreshed.


See above.

Getting a few razors honed on a few different systems can help shed light on the subject.

Sometimes I find that bevel setting significantly and quickly increases spine wear on the Norton 1k. I'm fine with spine wear as long as it yields as even bevels as possible and good shaves. But depending on the razor, sometimes I bevel set on the Norton 4k until I get the as even bevel yield and even performance. I accomplish this by going more laps until I pass certain cutting tests. HHT. Tree topping. Paper push pull test etc.

 

[RobertScalchi]

Gonna ignore ILR as I have no personal experience with them (except maybe some other people's edges off them; but I can't remember). But looking at the other finishes you reference (12k modern synth and Pasted balsa (I assume 0.1 micron))...

A barber synth definitely won't get you more "scary sharp" than 0.1 on balsa or even a 12k. Depending on the stone, it MAY get you smoother... but precious few barber synths will even do that for you.


If you want sharper than 12k... your best bet would be .1 on balsa... if you want sharper than .1 on balsa... I don't know, maybe 0.01 on balsa? At that point you might want to use a lower bevel angle razor; if .1 balsa finish isn't sharp enough for you.

Smoother is another story; though that's harder to define/more subjective...

But generally, and based on most people's opinions/feedback on high grit synth stone (such as 12k) finishes as well as ultra-fine abrasive charged balsa finishes; a lot of options are going to be smoother than a 12k synth. Smoother than a balsa stropped edge you would want to stick with the top tier/traditional natural finishers... Coti, Thuri, High grade Jnat. Ark may certainly get you there; but it may take a bit to develop the technique. But Balsa stropped edges can be quite smooth... so there's no guarantee going to even the above options will make your edge feel smoother to you... Coti is likely your best bet if you're looking for smooth.

Longer lasting edge (as in multiple shaves)? Not my area of expertise (I generally hone before every shave because I like honing/changing finishes)... but my hunch is that coticules may be one of the better options for edge durability. Now longer lasting edge within a single shave, I can speak to (see below).





As an aside... all edges degrade after the first pass of the shave. Heck they degrade after the first time the blade touches hair... To get edges this sharp; we really are on the bleeding edge of what the steel can hold up. Lots of guys have done tests like "how many shaves before I need to strop" and "How many shaves with just stropping before I need to hone"... but fact is that shaves damage edges... quite a lot. From your post it sounds like you may get most of what you want just by throwing a strop by your sink and doing a handful of leather passes on the strop between shaving passes. Honestly; that's the best way to keep a top notch edge through 2, 3 or more shaving passes... but it's awkward so no one (that I know of) does it these days. Chasing down a finish that holds up better throughout the shave feels a little like a fools errand to me... not saying there aren't differences in that; but:

A: as mentioned... a strop or two between passes will do more for what you're looking for than years of trying to find a miracle finisher will

and

B: Changing out your razor will do a lot more for this than changing finishers. Different razors hold up to shaving passes differently far more than different finishes on the same razor in my experience... the only exception being on BLEEDING edge razors that are actually failing (badly) in the shave with certain edges... like an 11* ground gold dollar which may totally fail off a 13k Synth, but can complete a shave without crumbling with maybe a Coticule edge.


TLDR: You're not gonna get sharper than balsa stropped by changing hones... may be time to change razors if you want SHARPER (or longer lasting edge). If you want smoother... you may or may not get that from a natural stone... I'd lean towards Coti as your best bet... but smoother is a "Your mileage may vary" kind of descriptor; so Thuri/Jnat may be better for exactly what you want... or Ark as you suggest... but be prepared for a little bit of time getting your ark technique down.



Generally; if you're looking to improve your shaves; don't bother with Barbers synths as a rule. Most people mess with them out of curiousity; as a collectible, or just because we really find this stuff interesting and want to find the ones that do work good... but the overwhelming majority are garbage... to such a degree that I would say newcomers to shaving should just pretend they don't exist and not even consider them as an option. I wish I had skipped the months I spent trying to get a good shave off a bad Swaty because they were considered a viable option as a finishing stone when I got into the hobby.

Now once you're in the hobby and know what you like to shave on; they can be real fun to experiment with and try out just because there are so many out there and there are diamonds in the rough that are always a fun surprise.

So it sounds like from your i put I am on the right track and practices. That with trail honing as fine as .2 micron and as light as I hone, my edges are fine, smooth and very sharp and that I should just come to expect the continual maintenence of them during and after the shave. I do have 30 razors to choose from and depending on how I feel they are shaving that day. I will alternate them or strop on balsa linen leather mid shave on the same one I started with.

 

[SliceOfLife]

I wouldn't bother with balsa midshave... honestly a couple leather passes (after a linen pass to ensure its clean) is usually all it takes to get it back up to snuff, but heck try it and see what works for you.


Like I said though, most guys who notice big drop offs during the shave switch up their razors... rather than finishes or stropping between passes... a lot of the popularity of the big choppers came from the impression they held up better in the shave... in my opinion that was more placebo than anything, but going to a higher angle razor may help.


And if it's not awkward for you, then yeah stropping between passes is a huge improvement... with the added benefit of letting the lather work on the stubble a bit more while you do.


It's an old timey barber shave... lather strop shave, reapply lather strop second pass, etc.

 

[RobertScalchi]

" why a pasted edge only has limited life"

There's a (well tested) theory on scienceofsharp.com that edge-leading strokes create sharpness but also micro chipping. Eventually you peak when edge damage negates any sharpening.

Edge trailing also increases sharpness, but causes less micro chipping. So you can get sharper. The problem is it creates a burr which will roll or break off during shaving, ruining the edge.

The trick seems to be to limit those finishing trailing edge strokes to around 3 or 4 strokes so the burr can't grow. Less is more in this situation.

Maybe this applies when using paste? I've heard you can do leading edge strokes with lapping film. Maybe this is worth testing.

Can you go leading edge on balsa? Sounds risky unless you lap it before every use, and even then it screams bad idea.

A safer test would be limiting the pasted stropping to just 3 or 4 strokes. I've never been that restrained!

Yes I have read the many articles of science of sharp.com and have implemented some of his techniques. Hos demonstrative microscopic pictures of an edge apex is very usefil. I am aware of the microchipping that occurs on edge leading strokes. I always finish with 10 edge trailing strokes on every stone progression. This has been a game changer for me. Sometimes for good measure I will strop on denim and mother's mag polish between 12k and .50 micron balsa to keen up an edge and remove any microchipping or burrs. I forgot to mention earlier that my balsa is lapped with 1000 grit aluminum oxide auto paper.

I wouldn't bother with balsa midshave... honestly a couple leather passes (after a linen pass to ensure its clean) is usually all it takes to get it back up to snuff, but heck try it and see what works for you.


Like I said though, most guys who notice big drop offs during the shave switch up their razors... rather than finishes or stropping between passes... a lot of the popularity of the big choppers came from the impression they held up better in the shave... in my opinion that was more placebo than anything, but going to a higher angle razor may help.


And if it's not awkward for you, then yeah stropping between passes is a huge improvement... with the added benefit of letting the lather work on the stubble a bit more while you do.


It's an old timey barber shave... lather strop shave, reapply lather strop second pass, etc.

Very rarely will I balsa mid shave. Only if I notice significant drop offs and the edge gets toothy, grabby, etc. I typically clean up the edge mid shave on my Illinois 827 Linen. (Since I can always Chicago screw disassemble the strop and wash/mild bleach after multiple uses. Then I strop on the ILR paracord, then premium Latigo. That usually perks my edge back up, but not as well as a 0.1 balsa. It's a suble difference. The mid shave repertoire isn't awkward for me at all. I don't mind it time permitting. Just have to make sure hands are free of lather. (Left hand really, and typically when I use my Campbell Latherking.) and take care my strop doesn't get wet or get residual in the sink since my hook is directly over it. I only use higher angles of attack if I feel I'm not getting a close enough shave going ATG and getting bbs passes. I've started shaving like I see certain ASMR barbers doing the back and forth strokes on the face to keep the blade continually lubricated with residual cream. Straight passes I do for the tricky areas, like, upper lip, chin, etc WTG, ATG.

A lot of my nicks in the past and present would typically come from making a pass, then repeating the same area without enough slickness since the edge undercut all the lubricity away. This helps with that. Or just splashing more water and cream for hydration.

Just curious "Slice of Life" You make pizza?