Escher/Thuri/Achonite

[RobertScalchi]

Just looking on the bay for a new razor home just to shake things up with my Norton/Naniawa/Imperial LaRocca/Balsa Strop repertoire. I'm getting bored with my edges and looking for potentially smoother. I think I'm starting to grasp the concept as to how and why a pasted edge only has limited life and cutting power before it has to be maintained and refreshed so soon after sharpening my only kitchen knife last week.

Looking at Eschers/Thuringian stones possibly. Maybe coticules? What is the difference between the colors of Eschers/Thuringian and their cutting and edge properties anyways?

Also? Anyone ever hear of or use an Achonite razor hone? Saw one and it got me curious?

 

[Empire straights]

Just looking on the bay for a new razor home just to shake things up with my Norton/Naniawa/Imperial LaRocca/Balsa Strop repertoire. I'm getting bored with my edges and looking for potentially smoother. I think I'm starting to grasp the concept as to how and why a pasted edge only has limited life and cutting power before it has to be maintained and refreshed so soon after sharpening my only kitchen knife last week.

Looking at Eschers/Thuringian stones possibly. Maybe coticules? What is the difference between the colors of Eschers/Thuringian and their cutting and edge properties anyways?

Also? Anyone ever hear of or use an Achonite razor hone? Saw one and it got me curious?

I'd go coticule. That's about smooth as it gets. Find an old natural combo it'll be half or less than a thuringian, forget an Escher unless you get lucky. Hardness is what I notice between thuri layers, soft is better and definitely at a premium. I haven't looked in a while but there's usually vintage coticules for around $100, cheaper than a new one and usually better quality. They come with a learning curve but once you figure them out they are the serious army knife of sharpening stones. All of them not great for razors but the ones that are can do everything I could need done to a blade that's not chipped insanely or rolled really bad(unless I get my Les latneuses out, that one is new). I certainly vote coticule.

 

[Empire straights]

Depending on your location a llyn idwal, Vermont slate, or yellow lake would also be great stand ins for a finisher, but with those only useful as a finisher. A good coticule edge is the most skin friendly edge I've found. They don't like to bite, even with pressure(more than I'm actually comfortable with)

 

[Steve56]

JNats and coticules will satisfy your boredom as long as your wallet can stand it.

 

[Wid]

Face friendly would be Coticule and Jnat, in that order for me.

 

[RobertScalchi]

Ok then. I guess coticule is "the truth" indeed. Which type of coticules would anyone here recommend that are really good for razors? Belgium? Certain grades/colors/etc? Thanks for the prompt responses and advice.

 

[Empire straights]

Get an old one of ebay or if somebody here. I don't have any vintage natural combos up and that's what id recommend.

 

[Steve56]

Face friendly would be Coticule and Jnat, in that order for me.

Reverse that order for me, ha ha. But I am trying to expand my coti inventory.

 

[gbupp]

Another thing is how many "fish" do you want to catch before you are happy? One major benefit to Thuringians/Eschers is they are pretty foolproof, witha almost no research you can get a nice one and it *will* work. JNATs with a bit of learning you can get to the same place. Coticules in my experience - unless you buy from someone who really knows them and has tested the exact one you are getting - will not always give you a razor stone. I've had a few I felt were firmly better as just bevel setters. I also tend to prefer the more screaming edges. Just food for thought, I would recommend...them all! More constructively though I prefer JNATs, but coticules can be a lot of fun and make great knife stones if they aren't really good razor ones.

 

[Wid]

Email Ardennes and ask for a razor grade coticule. Buy the largest one you can afford

The new select plus Veinette is a very nice coticule and works great for razors.

 

[Gamma]

A barber hone was designed to get a tugging edge to not tug quickly, they weren't intended to be refined finishers.
The Achonite razor hone isn't know for being a good option. Most are degraded and perform even more coarsely than a prime example might have.

Coticules can be very versatile, with a broad range of honing capability, bevel to finish you might say.

Eschers are pretty much only used to put finishing touches on an already shaving edge.

So between those three, it's really apples/oranges to me.

Coticules, like most naturals, should be bought by characteristics, not by the name of the brand or vein. A lot of people like to guess about a Coticule's vein, so you might not be getting what you assume. And you can have a dozen stones from any one vein that are all different. There are examples from La Vienette vein I have liked, and others that I did not like. Some La Verte are rock hard and stupid fine and barely good for anything other than finishing a razor while other examples are so soft they seem to bleed slurry just by getting wet and wont' put an edge into the sharpest tier ever. Very crisp and keen edges come off some coticules, while others will pretty much only own the mellow-edge class. A lot depends on the user's ground work skills, and the their capability with the stone in question. A softer La Grise is almost certainly going to be mellow but a medium hardness Dressante can go either way and technique can be the deciding factor.

I seriously doubt anyone could determine the color of an Escher by shaving off of it. Many theories abound, I have owned several from each 'color' as labeled by the mfgr. I would only say that "usually" the dark blue types are harder and Yellow Green types are softer but there are harder greens and softer blues. To me, they all pretty much lead to the same place. They are slate, so they are limited by their given composition but many see Eschers as best in that class. They always put on a very smooth finish when the previous work was done correctly.

Comparing Coticule edges to Escher edges - So much depends on how the edge was established before using either. I would not say a Coticule edge is inherently smoother than an Escher edge. It can be, or it might not be, not enough info given in the question to give any sort of objective answer. Typically, I would use an Escher after a Coti. I would also typically use an Escher before a Translucent Ark and that edge will be so stupidly keen and smooth....without rival.

One option to consider is to have a few people hone your razors with the types of stones you are interested in. Choose people that are known for producing a good edge. That will shed light on what the stones are about.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Just looking on the bay for a new razor home just to shake things up with my Norton/Naniawa/Imperial LaRocca/Balsa Strop repertoire. I'm getting bored with my edges and looking for potentially smoother. I think I'm starting to grasp the concept as to how and why a pasted edge only has limited life and cutting power before it has to be maintained and refreshed so soon after sharpening my only kitchen knife last week.

Looking at Eschers/Thuringian stones possibly. Maybe coticules? What is the difference between the colors of Eschers/Thuringian and their cutting and edge properties anyways?

Also? Anyone ever hear of or use an Achonite razor hone? Saw one and it got me curious?

Ahconite is a VERY coarse and fast coarse and a midrange. Like 2k and 5k.


Thuris as noted are finishers. If your razor is beveled, and especially if you've done decent midrange work; I don't think you could get a bad shaving edge off a Thuri if you tried. They don't come easier. Top notch Jnats are in my experience, basically identical in that respect to a Thuri... trouble is getting a top notch one; with the amount of hucksters out there. But if you do; it'll be at least as good as a Thuri and a lot of guys would argue it'd be better.


Coticules are something else.

While the amount of "not razor finishers" are smaller than a lot of people say. I'd guess (having owned 100+ coticules) it's in the 1-3% area.

That said, the majority are definitely not going to give as close a shave as a Thuri or top not razor Jnat. And only the very extreme top end (maybe 3-6%) are even in that conversation.

The other 90%+ run from a very comfortable but not ultra close shave with an edge that feels like it couldn't cut anything but somehow cuts a beard easily up to a very decent shave that just isn't as close as some "sharper" finishing options. These are your La vertes, your Dressantes, a lot of your Les Lats, Most (or all depending on who you ask) of your La Veinnettes, the bulk of the unidentified vintages, etc, etc, etc. There's a decent spread in performance, speed, and ease of use in this grouping too; but to me it's a single group defined as "Razor finishers that just don't compete with that top 3-6%"


The ability to use Coticules as a more versatile hone too is something to note... but again varies a lot. That top 3-6%? I'd never want to go to those off a beveler (as someone who had dilucotted dozens if not hundreds of razors). I've scoped their slurry. Their garnets measure in the tenths of microns, not the tens of microns. But most of the razors in the largest (90%+) group are capable of midrange work with slurry to varying degrees. With some; they're effective enough to be a viable alternative to midrange synthetic stones... with others... it's barely a parlor trick; and takes far to much effort to be worthwhile. Years ago I scoped a bunch of coticule slurries... Including one which was not a razor finisher. It had 25-50 micron garnets. Then a handful of modern and vintage stones I'd considered typical coticules with varying properties. They ranged from ~3 micron to ~ 12 micron (largest seen in a sample) garnets... with the max garnet size being almost perfectly inversely matched with the stones performance as a finisher. The "top tier" coticules had <micron garnets.

 

[Christian1212]

I would suggest a black surgical ark. Great naturals and if ordering from Dan's with a note it is for razors you are guaranteed a winner. I love coticules and jnats (my favorite stones) but it can take a lot of hunting to find the right one.

Definitely send out your razors though and try out different edges (ark, jnat, coticule, thuri - probably one of these will catch your heart).

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Yup, Thuringian over Coticules, Jnats over Thuringian for ease of use and wide range with Nagura. Coticules are a deep rabbit hole.

You can make the Jnat finish progression as simple or complicated, (tailored) as you wish.

If you are like most, you will end up with Jnats or find hard Arks, so just cut to the chase and get a Kopa Jnat around $100 make a little slurry and dilute.

Thuringian as said are no brainer stone, but the edges will not be anything like the pasted edges you are experiencing now. If you are not happy with the edge off the La Rocha and need diamonds to enhance, you likely will not be happy with Thuringians. Some say color can dictate finish, I have never found that so.

Jnats can deliver a keen and smooth edge, as can hard vintage Arks.

Vintage Arks are pricy and are stone face dependent. There is a learning curve to setting up an Ark and the edge must be pristine before finishing on an Ark.

Jnats just work, even with simple Diamond slurry. And if you want variation, there are endless Nagura progressions.

 

[RobertScalchi]

A barber hone was designed to get a tugging edge to not tug quickly, they weren't intended to be refined finishers.
The Achonite razor hone isn't know for being a good option. Most are degraded and perform even more coarsely than a prime example might have.

Coticules can be very versatile, with a broad range of honing capability, bevel to finish you might say.

Eschers are pretty much only used to put finishing touches on an already shaving edge.

So between those three, it's really apples/oranges to me.

Coticules, like most naturals, should be bought by characteristics, not by the name of the brand or vein. A lot of people like to guess about a Coticule's vein, so you might not be getting what you assume. And you can have a dozen stones from any one vein that are all different. There are examples from La Vienette vein I have liked, and others that I did not like. Some La Verte are rock hard and stupid fine and barely good for anything other than finishing a razor while other examples are so soft they seem to bleed slurry just by getting wet and wont' put an edge into the sharpest tier ever. Very crisp and keen edges come off some coticules, while others will pretty much only own the mellow-edge class. A lot depends on the user's ground work skills, and the their capability with the stone in question. A softer La Grise is almost certainly going to be mellow but a medium hardness Dressante can go either way and technique can be the deciding factor.

I seriously doubt anyone could determine the color of an Escher by shaving off of it. Many theories abound, I have owned several from each 'color' as labeled by the mfgr. I would only say that "usually" the dark blue types are harder and Yellow Green types are softer but there are harder greens and softer blues. To me, they all pretty much lead to the same place. They are slate, so they are limited by their given composition but many see Eschers as best in that class. They always put on a very smooth finish when the previous work was done correctly.

Comparing Coticule edges to Escher edges - So much depends on how the edge was established before using either. I would not say a Coticule edge is inherently smoother than an Escher edge. It can be, or it might not be, not enough info given in the question to give any sort of objective answer. Typically, I would use an Escher after a Coti. I would also typically use an Escher before a Translucent Ark and that edge will be so stupidly keen and smooth....without rival.

One option to consider is to have a few people hone your razors with the types of stones you are interested in. Choose people that are known for producing a good edge. That will shed light on what the stones are about.

I've seen a few people around on You Tube lap a translucent ark with SIC powder. It looks like A LOT OF HARD WORK to dial in. I've heard of Dan's being thrown around here as well as other places as being reputable. What I am mainly in the market for is another good finisher just to possibly experience any variance good bad or indifferent in performance with my edges. I've never used a barber's hone or "barber's delight" like Swaty or anything similar so I don't know what I don't know. But like you said just looking at the composition of them. They look like some form of slate and not refined finishers. Just meant for a 5 to 10 pass touch up I would think?

I am somewhat happy with my edges off the Naniwa 12k, the ILR, and my balsa progressions. I guess I just want to see if I can get an experience of that keen scary sharp (which I am finding sharp but by no means commercially sharp.) to last longer throughout the shave, or multiple shaves. Or possibly smoother but as a trade off a little less sharper. The refreshes and maintenence of the balsa edges are fine by me but I am theorizing from facial shaving experience that any pasted edge will slightly fade after the first pass of face because of the apex and edge being stropped thin and shallow rather than having more meat of the steel behind it off a stone. Its great dont get me wrong, I just notice it has a tendency to fade fast. I'm also always improving my techniques which is a factor as well.

I might reconsider a translucent ark or a jnat since the results are not only more consistent but there are a variety of options to modify things.

 

[Herrenberg]

I've seen a few people around on You Tube lap a translucent ark with SIC powder. It looks like A LOT OF HARD WORK to dial in. I've heard of Dan's being thrown around here as well as other places as being reputable. What I am mainly in the market for is another good finisher just to possibly experience any variance good bad or indifferent in performance with my edges. I've never used a barber's hone or "barber's delight" like Swaty or anything similar so I don't know what I don't know. But like you said just looking at the composition of them. They look like some form of slate and not refined finishers. Just meant for a 5 to 10 pass touch up I would think?

I am somewhat happy with my edges off the Naniwa 12k, the ILR, and my balsa progressions. I guess I just want to see if I can get an experience of that keen scary sharp (which I am finding sharp but by no means commercially sharp.) to last longer throughout the shave, or multiple shaves. Or possibly smoother but as a trade off a little less sharper. The refreshes and maintenence of the balsa edges are fine by me but I am theorizing from facial shaving experience that any pasted edge will slightly fade after the first pass of face because of the apex and edge being stropped thin and shallow rather than having more meat of the steel behind it off a stone. Its great dont get me wrong, I just notice it has a tendency to fade fast. I'm also always improving my techniques which is a factor as well.

I might reconsider a translucent ark or a jnat since the results are not only more consistent but there are a variety of options to modify things.

Initial flattening of a translucent ark is a pain, yes. But it only needs to be done once. Occasional reconditioning of the surface is a breeze.

I don't know whether balsa edges last less long. Maybe? But the advice to hit the balsa after every shave is, I think, more about 0.1 micron diamond being a very tiny effect, so you don't want to give it more than one shave's worth of wear to deal with.

For me, edges lasting longer has come with two things:

Shaving technique. Specifically, really, truly using a low angle everywhere on your face, no exceptions. It's not easy to do, and takes a lot of practice. At least it did for me.

Getting the bevel set locked in and perfect. I know you can barely turn your head around here without hearing about how important a good bevel set is, but that's because it's so overwhelmingly true. For longevity, a perfect bevel set leads to an edge with no disturbances of the kind that grow into the kind of thing that can diminish your shave after a few passes.

 

[Gamma]

I've seen a few people around on You Tube lap a translucent ark with SIC powder. It looks like A LOT OF HARD WORK to dial in.

Yeah, it's work. Lotta people make more out of it than it really is. But, it's definitely work and it's harder to lap a Translucent Ark than just about anything else of an equal size. Nature of the beast sorta thing.

I've heard of Dan's being thrown around here as well as other places as being reputable.

I've had many stones from Dans. All were good.

What I am mainly in the market for is another good finisher just to possibly experience any variance good bad or indifferent in performance with my edges.

Welcome to the world of honing. One thing though, lotta guys chase finishers when they really should be chasing bevel-set stones and skills. No one wants to hear or believe that their bevels are 'off', or could stand improvement though. Factually, most sharpness is developed pre-8k... so, yeah... finishers are cute and all but the ground work is where the real game is.

I've never used a barber's hone or "barber's delight" like Swaty or anything similar

Swaty stones were synthetic barber hones.
Barber's Delight hones were natural, made by Escher. Two different things.
Most traditional Barber hones are not so fine, many are deteriorated, some need restoration.
An Escher Barbers Delight is a nice finisher, lotta guys love 'em. But they're not a "Barber Hone" in the conventional sense.

so I don't know what I don't know.
Yep, no one does. But on the internet.... some people do seem to know what they really don't know.

But like you said just looking at the composition of them. They look like some form of slate and not refined finishers. Just meant for a 5 to 10 pass touch up I would think?

If you are talking about the Achonite, they are synthetic slabs, probably baked, and impregnated with some sorts of abrasives. They are not known to be a fine stone, even when it is in good shape. They were designed to make a tugging edge cut, not much more than that. A lot of Barber hones fall in this class.

I am somewhat happy with my edges off the Naniwa 12k, the ILR, and my balsa progressions. I guess I just want to see if I can get an experience of that keen scary sharp (which I am finding sharp but by no means commercially sharp.) to last longer throughout the shave, or multiple shaves.

Typically, if sharpness is falling off during a shave, or after a couple/few shaves - the bevel-set efforts need improvement.

Or possibly smoother but as a trade off a little less sharper. The refreshes and maintenence of the balsa edges are fine by me but I am theorizing from facial shaving experience that any pasted edge will slightly fade after the first pass of face because of the apex and edge being stropped thin and shallow rather than having more meat of the steel behind it off a stone.

I guess any wear on any edge is going to cause 'fade' to some degree;like a good DE blades shaves differently on the 3rd time than it did the 1st time.
But - well honed edges finished on Abrasive Compounds can last a long time without needing to be refreshed.

Its great dont get me wrong, I just notice it has a tendency to fade fast. I'm also always improving my techniques which is a factor as well.

See above.

I might reconsider a translucent ark or a jnat since the results are not only more consistent but there are a variety of options to modify things.

Getting a few razors honed on a few different systems can help shed light on the subject.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Gonna ignore ILR as I have no personal experience with them (except maybe some other people's edges off them; but I can't remember). But looking at the other finishes you reference (12k modern synth and Pasted balsa (I assume 0.1 micron))...

A barber synth definitely won't get you more "scary sharp" than 0.1 on balsa or even a 12k. Depending on the stone, it MAY get you smoother... but precious few barber synths will even do that for you.


If you want sharper than 12k... your best bet would be .1 on balsa... if you want sharper than .1 on balsa... I don't know, maybe 0.01 on balsa? At that point you might want to use a lower bevel angle razor; if .1 balsa finish isn't sharp enough for you.

Smoother is another story; though that's harder to define/more subjective...

But generally, and based on most people's opinions/feedback on high grit synth stone (such as 12k) finishes as well as ultra-fine abrasive charged balsa finishes; a lot of options are going to be smoother than a 12k synth. Smoother than a balsa stropped edge you would want to stick with the top tier/traditional natural finishers... Coti, Thuri, High grade Jnat. Ark may certainly get you there; but it may take a bit to develop the technique. But Balsa stropped edges can be quite smooth... so there's no guarantee going to even the above options will make your edge feel smoother to you... Coti is likely your best bet if you're looking for smooth.

Longer lasting edge (as in multiple shaves)? Not my area of expertise (I generally hone before every shave because I like honing/changing finishes)... but my hunch is that coticules may be one of the better options for edge durability. Now longer lasting edge within a single shave, I can speak to (see below).





As an aside... all edges degrade after the first pass of the shave. Heck they degrade after the first time the blade touches hair... To get edges this sharp; we really are on the bleeding edge of what the steel can hold up. Lots of guys have done tests like "how many shaves before I need to strop" and "How many shaves with just stropping before I need to hone"... but fact is that shaves damage edges... quite a lot. From your post it sounds like you may get most of what you want just by throwing a strop by your sink and doing a handful of leather passes on the strop between shaving passes. Honestly; that's the best way to keep a top notch edge through 2, 3 or more shaving passes... but it's awkward so no one (that I know of) does it these days. Chasing down a finish that holds up better throughout the shave feels a little like a fools errand to me... not saying there aren't differences in that; but:

A: as mentioned... a strop or two between passes will do more for what you're looking for than years of trying to find a miracle finisher will

and

B: Changing out your razor will do a lot more for this than changing finishers. Different razors hold up to shaving passes differently far more than different finishes on the same razor in my experience... the only exception being on BLEEDING edge razors that are actually failing (badly) in the shave with certain edges... like an 11* ground gold dollar which may totally fail off a 13k Synth, but can complete a shave without crumbling with maybe a Coticule edge.


TLDR: You're not gonna get sharper than balsa stropped by changing hones... may be time to change razors if you want SHARPER (or longer lasting edge). If you want smoother... you may or may not get that from a natural stone... I'd lean towards Coti as your best bet... but smoother is a "Your mileage may vary" kind of descriptor; so Thuri/Jnat may be better for exactly what you want... or Ark as you suggest... but be prepared for a little bit of time getting your ark technique down.



Generally; if you're looking to improve your shaves; don't bother with Barbers synths as a rule. Most people mess with them out of curiousity; as a collectible, or just because we really find this stuff interesting and want to find the ones that do work good... but the overwhelming majority are garbage... to such a degree that I would say newcomers to shaving should just pretend they don't exist and not even consider them as an option. I wish I had skipped the months I spent trying to get a good shave off a bad Swaty because they were considered a viable option as a finishing stone when I got into the hobby.

Now once you're in the hobby and know what you like to shave on; they can be real fun to experiment with and try out just because there are so many out there and there are diamonds in the rough that are always a fun surprise.

 

[rajagra2]

" why a pasted edge only has limited life"

There's a (well tested) theory on scienceofsharp.com that edge-leading strokes create sharpness but also micro chipping. Eventually you peak when edge damage negates any sharpening.

Edge trailing also increases sharpness, but causes less micro chipping. So you can get sharper. The problem is it creates a burr which will roll or break off during shaving, ruining the edge.

The trick seems to be to limit those finishing trailing edge strokes to around 3 or 4 strokes so the burr can't grow. Less is more in this situation.

Maybe this applies when using paste? I've heard you can do leading edge strokes with lapping film. Maybe this is worth testing.

Can you go leading edge on balsa? Sounds risky unless you lap it before every use, and even then it screams bad idea.

A safer test would be limiting the pasted stropping to just 3 or 4 strokes. I've never been that restrained!

 

[RobertScalchi]

These are all great replies of experience. Thank you all for your time and input. Very much appreciated. Will reply short and succinctly to each.