B
bluefoxicy
Anyone double bevel your razors from time to time? ie tape the spine for the last pass so the edge is less sharp, but stiffer and stronger?
Tried it. Didn't do too much for me.
I just started doing this to my razors as they dull and gives me an excuse to bring my stones out. I haven't noticed much of a difference in shave but the razors that have the double bevel seem to keep a longer edge.
I have an 11/16 wedge that Im honing that is not taking an edge from a single layer so I added 3 layers now and it seems to be finally working. Maybe someone can explain that concept of why the extra layers are needed sometimes along with the ops.
I've done it, and I actually like the edges both ways, and I think it's easier to get great results with a double bevel (for newer honers). I typically don't do it, though.
The extra layers decrease the amount of steel you have to remove to set the bevel. You could do it without them, it would just take longer.
This.
With a wedge, there's so much steel to be removed that it's hard to get anywhere with a finishing stone.
To make things worse, however, the edge takes a certain amount of damage just passing over the hone, from swarf and surface irregularities etc. Under normal circumstances (narrow bevel, light pressure, lapped stone) the damage is light enough and enough steel is being removed by the hone to keep this damage at a fairly low level so the sharpness improves. But with a wedge and a fine hone there's just not enough steel coming off to remove all the damage done on each stroke, so the damage accumulates and the razor won't get sharp like a full hollow would, and can even regress. You run into a related problem with high-carbide-content steels like stainless and TI's C135 steel; the carbides are so wear-resistant that the bevel isn't being abraded enough, yet the edge is still taking damage from the swarf with each pass. Propping up the spine so the hone can remove more steel from the edge on each stroke can make all the difference. Or you can use a pasted strop which accomplishes something similar (through a different mechanism, though).
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Thers no dout if after honing your edge is not quite there double bevel will shortcut that and give you keener edge. I have tryed it , i never liked it i prefer single bevel. Double bevel always felt to agressive to me. And it makes touich ups a pain with having to keep adding one layer of tape. Double bevel not for me.
I do it sometimes. I like to experiment quite a lot.
It is a quicker way to get the razor shave ready.
Some razors, not all of them, seem to benefit from the slightly more durable edge.
I've not noticed double beveled razors to be any less sharp than single bevel.
If you double bevel some razors but not all of them you better keep an accurate honing log so you'll know what to do when it is touch up time.
It is a quicker way to get the razor shave ready.
Some razors, not all of them, seem to benefit from the slightly more durable edge.
I've not noticed double beveled razors to be any less sharp than single bevel.
If you double bevel some razors but not all of them you better keep an accurate honing log so you'll know what to do when it is touch up time.
Is there a wiki entry or way to know how much tape is needed for certain blades or using certain stones?
I honed a W&B that took 1 layer pretty well on a coticule and J. A. & Sons that holy smokes I have 4 layers until I finally notice steal being removed after the bevel was set
Honing vintage wedge-style razors, I always measure the width of the blade (I usually use the width measured at the middle part of these often curved blades), and the thickness of the spine. I throw the numbers into this bevel angle calculator, to find how much tape I could apply without going over 20 degrees. A this point, I determine how many layers I will use to finish the razors and set the bevel with one layer less. The issue mparker762 described so well, only prevents the edge on a wide bevel from gaining that last bit of keenness that separates a manageable edge from and excellent one (obviously the hones in use also have their influence here). If you set the bevel minus one layer of tape, that extra layer for finishing is enough to tilt the blade on the very tip and start a very narrow secondary bevel.
I never use more than 3 layers (0.15mm tape thickness), because I found that more tape can introduce problems on a wedge. The razor starts resting on the rim of the tape, instead of on a stable flat area of the spine. This interferes with a consistent honing angle, because, at the rim, tape wears and compresses more easily.
I have written this article about honing wedges It focuses partially on Coticule honing, but most of the information applies to other honing setups as well.
Kind regards,
Bart.
I never use more than 3 layers (0.15mm tape thickness), because I found that more tape can introduce problems on a wedge. The razor starts resting on the rim of the tape, instead of on a stable flat area of the spine. This interferes with a consistent honing angle, because, at the rim, tape wears and compresses more easily.
I have written this article about honing wedges It focuses partially on Coticule honing, but most of the information applies to other honing setups as well.
Kind regards,
Bart.
I don't hone with tape, except for certain circumstances. As such, I have honed a number of wedges without tape. I have also honed a number of stainless razors with no tape. And I have honed some extremely hard carbon steel razors (Frederick Reynolds...) without tape. I had no issues getting them honed up without any tape. The really hard Reynolds got some extra time on each hone, but other than that, they were all honed the same way.
As such, my own experiences do not agree with the following statement:
"But with a wedge and a fine hone there's just not enough steel coming off to remove all the damage done on each stroke, so the damage accumulates and the razor won't get sharp like a full hollow would, and can even regress. You run into a related problem with high-carbide-content steels like stainless and TI's C135 steel; the carbides are so wear-resistant that the bevel isn't being abraded enough, yet the edge is still taking damage from the swarf with each pass."
I also don't understand the part about the bevel not abrading but the edge taking the same amount of damage. If the razor is harder, I would think that the decrese in abrasion would be accompinied by a proportional decerese in damage from swarth. Though, to be honest, I've never encountered damage from swarth when honing under "normal conditions." I know an edge can be damaged by slurry that is too heavy, but I have not seen an edge damaged when honing without slurry.
Again, these are my own experiences and how I explain them. I've only honed up... I don't know, maybe 1000 razors.
As such, my own experiences do not agree with the following statement:
"But with a wedge and a fine hone there's just not enough steel coming off to remove all the damage done on each stroke, so the damage accumulates and the razor won't get sharp like a full hollow would, and can even regress. You run into a related problem with high-carbide-content steels like stainless and TI's C135 steel; the carbides are so wear-resistant that the bevel isn't being abraded enough, yet the edge is still taking damage from the swarf with each pass."
I also don't understand the part about the bevel not abrading but the edge taking the same amount of damage. If the razor is harder, I would think that the decrese in abrasion would be accompinied by a proportional decerese in damage from swarth. Though, to be honest, I've never encountered damage from swarth when honing under "normal conditions." I know an edge can be damaged by slurry that is too heavy, but I have not seen an edge damaged when honing without slurry.
Again, these are my own experiences and how I explain them. I've only honed up... I don't know, maybe 1000 razors.
I don't speak for Mparker, but I was talking about getting that final bit of keenness, or edge refinement, or smoothness, or whatever you want to call it, by means of using a hone.
Most people get it off a pasted strop. It more or less accomplishes the same by working mostly at the very tip of the bevel (through sag or cushion in the strop).
I've studied 3 different finishers, a Chosera 10K, many Coticules and 2 Nakayma's. On wide bevels they all display the effect mentioned by Mparker. Namely, the edge maxes out earlier than it does when a small secondary bevel is used. Reverse honing (in stropping direction) at the very last part of the honing process helps a bit, but not as well as the application of one extra layer of tape. Again: if you're going to strop the edge on pastes anyway, don't bother, the paste will take care of it just as easily.
I use a calibrated version of the HHT to probe the keenness level while finishing. On the same hone, the difference in shaving comfort between, for instance, mark 1 and mark 3 of my version of the HHT is very distinct. (Again: both edges just stropped on clean linen and leather after finishing). This is also the typical improvement that can be achieved with a secondary bevel. (again: I'm talking about wide bevels).
In addition of Mparker's theory, I have hypothesized that on a wide bevel, the suction between bevel face and hone surface is much bigger and can cause interference that makes the thinest part of the edge flutter. I have witnessed the formation of stray scratches on the very edge of wide bevel, that I can't attribute to anything else than something weird going on when the bevel approaches final refinement. Something that doesn't occur on narrow bevels (and secondary bevel, which are just a special case of narrow bevels). I have pictures of the effect somewhere. I'll search for them tonight and post.
Since this seems to have become of utmost importance lately: At the moment, I hone, on average, about 5 razors weekly. That's a humble 250 razors a year. I hope that allows me to elaborate about my observations.
Best regards,
Bart.
Most people get it off a pasted strop. It more or less accomplishes the same by working mostly at the very tip of the bevel (through sag or cushion in the strop).
I've studied 3 different finishers, a Chosera 10K, many Coticules and 2 Nakayma's. On wide bevels they all display the effect mentioned by Mparker. Namely, the edge maxes out earlier than it does when a small secondary bevel is used. Reverse honing (in stropping direction) at the very last part of the honing process helps a bit, but not as well as the application of one extra layer of tape. Again: if you're going to strop the edge on pastes anyway, don't bother, the paste will take care of it just as easily.
I use a calibrated version of the HHT to probe the keenness level while finishing. On the same hone, the difference in shaving comfort between, for instance, mark 1 and mark 3 of my version of the HHT is very distinct. (Again: both edges just stropped on clean linen and leather after finishing). This is also the typical improvement that can be achieved with a secondary bevel. (again: I'm talking about wide bevels).
In addition of Mparker's theory, I have hypothesized that on a wide bevel, the suction between bevel face and hone surface is much bigger and can cause interference that makes the thinest part of the edge flutter. I have witnessed the formation of stray scratches on the very edge of wide bevel, that I can't attribute to anything else than something weird going on when the bevel approaches final refinement. Something that doesn't occur on narrow bevels (and secondary bevel, which are just a special case of narrow bevels). I have pictures of the effect somewhere. I'll search for them tonight and post.
Since this seems to have become of utmost importance lately: At the moment, I hone, on average, about 5 razors weekly. That's a humble 250 razors a year. I hope that allows me to elaborate about my observations.
Best regards,
Bart.
Unfortunately no, because the steel itself isn't actually that hard, usually only 62-63rc after tempering. Steel fully saturates with carbon at about 0.85%, and extra carbon won't make it any harder. Many high-carbon razors have above 1% carbon, the TI Carbonsong steel has 1.35%. The extra carbon turns into graphite (extremely soft) and carbide granules (extremely hard and wear-resistant) that are embedded in the steel. At extremely high carbon levels (>2% or so) it turns into cast iron - the graphite and carbides become so large that the metal becomes extremely brittle. With stainless you get carbide formation at lower carbon levels because the chromium tends to promote carbide formation. But I digress.
The steel that's being used in razors for the last hundred years or so is basically tool steel, which has very high carbon content because for tools you want carbides for their wear resistance. But for razors the main source of wear is the hone. A bit of wear resistance is fine, it makes them less sensitive to pressure when honing, so its easier to get a really sharp edge on a 63rc 1.1% carbon razor than it is on a 63rc 0.8% carbon razor. Anyway, in our HCS and stainless razors the carbides ride along the hone doing their normal wear-resistant act, but the steel between the carbides is softer and gets knocked around a bit by the swarf but not being honed much by the stone. Tipping the spine up gets fewer carbides in contact with the hone so the hone can actually get some work done on the edge. In the case of a pasted strop, the flexible surface of the hone allows the hone to work around the carbides - they can resist abrasion all they want but the softer steel around them and at the edge will still be honed and sharpened. And in the case of the japanese razors (very stiff, very hard, high carbide content) the traditional solution is simply to use pressure to force those carbides to abrade faster. Using pressure on a solingen wedge doesn't work as well because the steel is too soft and the abrasives in western hones are too large (works better on a japanese hone), and using pressure on a western hollow ground razor doesn't work because the steel will flex and the edge won't even contact the hone at all.
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It can happen on narrow bevels as well. I once shaved off a thin sheet off of my pink translucent arkansas hone; I was honing along feeling the suction increase, feeling for when it would top out, and suddenly it grabbed and a nearly-invisible sheet curled off the top of the hone. The edge was gone, of course, which was aggravating, but it was still pretty cool. Pressure couldn't explain it, since pressure makes the edge move away from the hone; the only thing I could figure was suction from a perfectly smooth hone and bevel.
As promised, a picture, shot through one of the eyepieces of a stereo microscope. Image quality isn't much, but some odd scratches present at the very edge flaring up in the light source, can be clearly seen. They occurred while finishing on a Coticule (water only). It's not the only time I've ever seen this, but currently the only time I took a picture.
As stated, the only plausible cause I can think of, is that the very edge starts fluttering some, while it gets intermittently sucked to the hone till the airs seal breaks over and over again during the stroke. This edge refused to meet my standards, until I taped the spine for the creation of a small secondary bevel. Whatever the reason, it is possible to achieve a keenness level on on such a narrow bevel that can't be achieved on a wide bevel, no matter how many laps done.
I can only make this claim about the hones I know.
Best regards,
Bart.
As stated, the only plausible cause I can think of, is that the very edge starts fluttering some, while it gets intermittently sucked to the hone till the airs seal breaks over and over again during the stroke. This edge refused to meet my standards, until I taped the spine for the creation of a small secondary bevel. Whatever the reason, it is possible to achieve a keenness level on on such a narrow bevel that can't be achieved on a wide bevel, no matter how many laps done.
I can only make this claim about the hones I know.
Best regards,
Bart.
Interestingly enough, Bart. I've encountered 3 razors that I "had" to use a secondary bevel on to get the edge to my satisfaction on my coticules. I thought it was just me lacking in skill in some way (and it very possibly could be 
)
)At any rate, it *is*¨easier to hit the maximum level of what the hone is capable of providing on a secondary bevel, because due to it being narrow, it responds so much easier to the hone.Interestingly enough, Bart. I've encountered 3 razors that I "had" to use a secondary bevel on to get the edge to my satisfaction on my coticules. I thought it was just me lacking in skill in some way (and it very possibly could be
On a Coticule in slow mode (water only), or on any other slow hone for that matter, it's often difficult to make up for any neglected keenness earlier on in the process.
A secondary bevel is an easy way around that.
Best regards,
Bart.
As a rule I don't like double bevels and have no use for them with two exceptions. I have two Zowada's a 7/8s and a 6/8s and when they needed the first touchup I removed the double bevel. What I found once the double bevel was removed was after about the 6th or 7th shave the edge stated to feel rough and when I looked at it under mag. the edge was full of micro chips. This happened to both razors so I honed them up, repaired the damage and the same thing happened again. I had no issues honing them and the edges looked perfect. So the next time I put the double bevels back on and all is well again.
